DDO is easy, extreme challenge and balanced party needed

[Afyndax]

The OPs biggest problem is he is comparing harbor quests in DDO to endgame content in WOW.

Did you happen to run any 1-60 dungeons in WOW in the past year? They are actually worse zergs than DDO. You don´t need a tank or a healer AND you don´t need anyone to take care of traps because there are none. There is also no need to buff anything in WOW... in DDO, in the leveling dungeons, buffs make things go much faster and you often need someone to do traps.

[Viren1]

Well, could they make the quests so that pure DPS zerg is not enough ? Or so that 4x WF wizard with a level of rogue is not enough ?

You didn't even address half of what I posted. Not to mention if you need 4 wf wizards to run quests then I fear you are doing something wrong...

There are many raids in this game that require a dedicated 'tank', however the reason the majority of people play the game is the variety of ways in which they can tank, the differing methods on how to hold the bosses aggro. Sure these raids can be soloed by the most heavily geared TR's who know just about every weakness in any given quest off by heart... But that isn't the point. If you want the challenge and your dedicated roles feel free to have them - Just dont force them on others in a game where variety is what keeps it going.

[DemonMage]

Why do you have 4 different difficulty levels if those are all easy for 6 players ?

Well for one thing, the quests are balanced around 4 people being present, except possibly some of the newer ones. So going in with 6 is going to make it quite easy, which is the intention.

[grgurius]

Yeah, by now it sounds more like he wants special invitations for his trap-monkey and turtle-tank rather than challenge.

Really looks that way, first sentence about "balanced" party, then rest of the post about how tanks should be needed for everything.

Looks like someone rolled a turtle tank and realized that he is a waste of party slot.

[MeliCat]

Dear OP, from having just watched someone do Durks elite in less than 2 mins at level 3 no ship buffs, I agree.

For the rest of us mere mortals though, with no twink gear, we need something we can do.

So tricky to do though.

Why did you leave WOW may I ask?

[Neverwinterer]

Dear OP:

When you can finish Weapons Shipment in elite alone, then and only then you can come and write a post saying the game is too easy. With the Update 11, many elite and epic quests have seen their difficulty increased. Right now only if you are experienced and have a well equipped toon you'll be able to survive.

Everytime I see a post asking for more difficult quests or complaining about how easy thing are I facepalm myself. Why to increase difficulty when the contents are well balanced for the 80% of the players i've ever met? Right now I can't do elite even with a well balanced party of two years experience people. Well geared but without any epic items besides the mabar and cove events.

When I start to find boring the game, I'll go PermaDeath. It's exciting, it's difficult and it's fun. And to whoever finds the game too easy, I would advice them to give it a try.

[arjiwan]

No no, do not understand me wrong.. I like DDO actually. I am not even HC wow player.

.So does it mean now that I am not allowed to ask more challenging difficulty ? Does it mean that the game should only be difficult when you reach lvl 20 ?

Yep, hehe you are not allowed. Unless you are one of the big forumite guys here.

Cheers!

[Flavilandile]

Dear OP, from having just watched someone do Durks elite in less than 2 mins at level 3 no ship buffs, I agree.

Any twinked or TR-ed or Vet-ed character will zerg Durk in 2 mins ( 4/5 Haste pots ) unless they have never farmed for Muckbane. I've done that quest so many time that I know it by heart.

Now an untwinked, LVL 2 ( level appropriate ), 28 point character, with a player that has never done the quest will have a hard time, even with a drone ( read : hireling ) to keep him alive. And it's Todays version, the watered down one they gave us with F2P... The original one was brutal, and you had good chances to have a death or two in your party.

[tfangel]

May have been mentioned, but they've changed the game for the better, gotten rid of the "forced" "challenge" (finger quotes, heh). Obviously weren't here before the majority of the changes, dungeon scaling, multiple settings, hirelings, etc, but also the hell that was the "kobold curse". Harbor quest kobolds on hard and elite, curse members, and it NEVER went away. You needed to find someone to get rid of it for you, and oh yeah, the level people could was after most went through Waterworks (which you HAD to do all of to just be able to leave harbor). Curse pots were pricey back then, with plat not being as plentiful, and you'd see the effect more.

Personally, i like how it is now. No needing to wait however long to find a "balanced party" and instead can do it low maned or with whoever. One of the things i love most about this game, the "trinity" is mostly irrelevant.

I'd also like to say, if you claim you want challenge, and aren't playing permadeath, you don't really want one.

[Jaajoo]

1. I ask one difficulty level, not to change the whole game. And I have told this many times, so this shall be my last time to answer to the posts where someone says that he does not like this kind of game. You could still play zerg as before.

2. Balanced team is not 4x WF Wizard, 1 lvl rogue -> All pure zerg DPS (at least not for me)

3. I do not know if my teams on elite had vets/TR players.

4. My turtletank, I also did want to see how tanking works and played one to lvl10. Does not work at all. Now I just dont play with this character. It is rather gimped in the groups. Now someone says that I have extra challenge -> It is not that, it is that I am mainly just standing there while everyone else is zerging. I think that when a character reaches lvl10, it should be enough to know more or less how the build works. Or is DDO a game where only lvl20 build can be evaluated ? If so, then I just do not understand, again, why the game is nothing before lvl20.
So yes, grgurius is correct, I did roll this waste of party slots.. And that is why I think I can now say that those really are waste of party slots -> I would like those to be fixed. I did my base study to actually see how bad tank builds are before I came here to troll. grgurius, should I have come here before that ? Without rolling a tank before I troll how bad those are ? I btw. rolled WF Wizard as well, lvl11.

5. I have stopped playing wow long time ago. I just got bored, no other reasons.

6. I do not need 4x WF wizards, it has been working as an example of team I would not like to see ever. Or 6 artificers, like right now almost in every party at low levels. Probably all have different DPS builds.

7. The quests have been made for 4 players and not for 6. Why there is then an option to play with 6 ? Is this once a gain one of those, gimp your self to get challenge options ?

8. Once again.. I am not trying to remove your beloved zerg experience from the game. I would like to make tank builds viable options, so that it would make character system even richer. I would like there to be a difficulty level which you cannot just purely DPS zerg.


Why it is so bad to have an option for people who does not want to DPS zerg ?

Why it would be so bad to have viable tank builds ?

Is that so that DDO player base loves to play only DPS classes and rest does not really matter ?

Are you afraid that this kind of change could make your max dps build waste of party slots ?

[tfangel]

I'm curious, have you tried forming your own groups? That way you can be tank, have a healer, a thief (i still can't call them rogues, heh), wizard, etc, and move at your own speed.

Most people have seen the quests many, many, many times and want to get though it as fast as possible, and to do that means do as much dps as possible. A good tank will be able to hold that aggro, which even in zergs can get out of hand. Although the best controlled mob is dead mob.

The main reason i feel most people are saying "don't bother" to making another setting, it is a LOT of work for the devs to do, to every quest that would have it. Work that would take away from way more important things like more content, bug fixes, druids, to name a few, for something that honestly only a handful of people would ever use. Much easier to leave it up to you, so many good suggestions on how you could do it too.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

1. So you made a turtletank...i guess because you had one in WoW too.

2. You thought it will be the same as in WoW.

3. You found out that DDO is not like WoW when it comes to "Turtletanks" (Even this name is so WoWish )

4. Now you want to change the game to fit your WoW-Turtletank playstyle.

Correct?


DDO only for casual players on all difficultys? Please go into the Quest "Enter the Kobold" in Reavers Refuge on Elite and tell me how casually it is?

[grgurius]

Why it is so bad to have an option for people who does not want to DPS zerg ?

Why it would be so bad to have viable tank builds ?

Is that so that DDO player base loves to play only DPS classes and rest does not really matter ?

Are you afraid that this kind of change could make your max dps build waste of party slots ?

There is a difference between being a viable option and being mandatory. No difficulty should have a certain party "role" as an only option.

If built and played right, tanks are a viable option. But if you built him just to stand there and shield block, then yes, you are a waste of party slot.

[Faent]

I'm guessing you haven't done any end-game content. You can't always just grab DPS and DoTs and hope it works. And really, don't throw around insults on the fora.

No, DoTs work just fine for grabbing aggro. Melees suck compared to casters. They suck now more than ever. In all content, including the new raids. A caster with DoT's makes the best tank for the Lord of Blades.

[Jaajoo]

1. So you made a turtletank...i guess because you had one in WoW too.

2. You thought it will be the same as in WoW.

3. You found out that DDO is not like WoW when it comes to "Turtletanks" (Even this name is so WoWish )

4. Now you want to change the game to fit your WoW-Turtletank playstyle.

Correct?

Partly correct.

I had one in wow as well, I did try all classes in wow.

As I said before, all games are different. I do not have any reason to make DDO to be WoW. As I said in the post, I got bored to WoW and I left. Why would I now want to play the same game again ?

I think DDO is a really good game. I like many things in it, but the continuous zerg is just extremely boring. Why I was thinking that maybe they could actually build something for people who do not like to just zerg. And that is the reason why I am here to troll.


Did you have something constructive also ?

[Bobthesponge]

Hi Welcome.

[Delt]

Hi Welcome.

Probably the only time I have ever found this phrase funny and appropriate.

[furbyoats]

run something above your level on elite.

btw, elite traps do a lot more damage than normal traps. the way the game is set up CAN be challenging for brand new players on 28 point builds with no gear. you could make changes but people who are grinding multiple lives will still find ways to blast through the content. DDO is set up in a way that you can get out what you put in...so again.

IF you are a lvl 5 toon, and you are finding the level 5 quests too easy on elite, then run level 6...or 7....or above on elite...there are no restrictions to what you can do here. This is not WoW, the game does not force you in to a pigeon hole.

thats about it...

oh, one more thing: pew pew pew!

[furbyoats]

Partly correct.

I had one in wow as well, I did try all classes in wow.

As I said before, all games are different. I do not have any reason to make DDO to be WoW. As I said in the post, I got bored to WoW and I left. Why would I now want to play the same game again ?

I think DDO is a really good game. I like many things in it, but the continuous zerg is just extremely boring. Why I was thinking that maybe they could actually build something for people who do not like to just zerg. And that is the reason why I am here to troll.


Did you have something constructive also ?

If your idea of a challenge is running to one spot, setting up in stance and clicking down the rows of your hotbars, then ddo is not for you. The combat system is intended to be very action focused. you start to move...your attack rolls take a penalty. you get debuffed, your attacks and damage take penalties. you see a caster start an animation...you can dodge a ray spell by strafing or tumbling.

There's a really good reason that people have been playing this for 5 years and counting. ddo is easy if you want to make it easy.

[Flavilandile]

ok, lets see.

First and foremost you must always remember that DDO is an online adaptation of the Pen and Paper game called Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Edition.

That means that there's a few built in limitations and other features that comes from there.
It also means that there's a lot of the PnP gaming philosophy that got transfered to DDO.

As (A)D&D was never meant to be a computer game, there's also a few problems that comes with it.

The first one is that in PnP it's the GM that control the overall power of the items owned by the group.
This means that no way ( except in Monty Hall ) he is going to give a LVL 4 character a pair of Timeblade or a Carnifex ).

The second thing is that forementioned GM also control the difficulty of the encounters and can adapt on the fly if the party zergs through the first encounter... he just add more mob or open his monster manual to pick up a tougher foe.

Sadly both these things cannot be done in a computer MMO. Why ?

The first one, because after a while people will have lots of loot stored, and people will give said loot between characters. So you end up with a LVL 4 character dual wielding Timeblades and zerging through Waterworks Elite.
Yes it was more difficult at the begining, because we only had ( if we were lucky ) a +1 sword, a masterwork shield and a padded armor... Now between the Store, the Starter kit and the twink gear a new character is better equiped than a LVL7 character was during the first year of DDO.

The second one, is simple enough to understand. Quests are fixed code in the game and can't be adapted from the result of the first fight on the fly. This is why there's several difficulty level for each quest, it's to us, the player to adapt the difficulty of the quest to the party we are in.

On the PnP game philosophy side, It's you ( the player ) that decide what adventure you can do and what you would need for it. It's also you that decide how difficult it is going to be.

Now, again, taking roots in the PnP origin of DDO is the fact that melee/ranged fighters rule the playing field at low level ( more or less under 10 ) and then it's the magic users that rule the playing field. ( because they finally get to play with all those instant death spells like Slay Living, Phantasmal Killer, Destruction, Harm, Wail of the Banshee, Disintegrate along with sustained damage spells )
This is how things have been in PnP for more than 30 years, this is also how things are in DDO.
( and the magic users are missing a lot of nice spells in DDO, Bigby's anybody ? )

Last, the D&D system was not created with computer games in mind, as such he does not works well in a computer game... and you end up with things like AC being more or less useless at high level in DDO and mobs that have tons of HPs. ( it works in PnP because the GM is here to maintain the balance between the party power -both through the availability of the spells for the magic users and the items he gave to the party- and the monsters he put in the encounters. )

Why AC is useless ? Because for mobs to be a bit challenging they have to have a high To Hit ( TAC0 for the oldsters like me ), thus you end up with ridiculous numbers needed in AC to be decent ... in the 80/90 range.
( while in PnP it's exceptional to go over AC 40 )
With an AC between 40 and 50 you can reduce the damage taken a lot, but that will not cut it at end game.
To compensate for that there's DR.

Why mobs have lots of HP ( and a few other things ) ? Because with the equipment we have we deal massive amounts of damage.
Also because the way they adapted the magic system makes the magic users able to cast the same spell a lot of time.
In PnP a magic user has to learn his spells every morning, for the day, and 1 spell slot is just that a slot. It means that if you learn magic missile once, you can cast it one time for that day. So if you have 4 spell slots at level 1, you can choose to learn Magic Missile 4 times, allowing you to cast it 4 times in a day... or you can select other spells. As this system couldn't work in an MMO [ the magic user would have been without any spell left after the first encounter ] they had to find a way to do so that magic users weren't useless after one fight.

Lastly I would like to point out that a lot of the people around here have done the harbour quests so many time that we do know them inside out ( some are even disgusted by them...). And if we still run them it's because they have a good XP/time ratio at the level we run them... nothing else, otherwise we would go somewhere else, as these quests have nothing to bring to us ( beside a nice XP/time ratio ). The good XP/time ratio is because we zerg them. If your gripe is that you end up with zerging people, the best way is to start your own LFM stating No Zerging.