Bravery bonus and F2P/Premium

[Letrii]

Even if no Walmart near you, I would think you could find prepaid credit cards, at gas stations if nowhere else.

[Dandonk]

Even if no Walmart near you, I would think you could find prepaid credit cards, at gas stations if nowhere else.

Personally I haven't seen a prepaid credit card (in Denmark), so not sure if they're widely available outside the US either.

[gloopygloop]

+1 for honesty. It's funny reading the Premium players in this thread thumping their chests and bragging "We saved DDO!" and "We pay more than VIPs!" while the truth of the average Premium spending is more likely as your situation. They bought some TP's the first year they played, and used that along with free favor TP to buy the "big packs" a shared bank and a char slot or twoo, and that's about what they will spend on this game. With a little pack here and there funded by free Favor TP and maybe a tenner spent for Christmas.

No harm in that, that's they way Turbine made the system. But saying that the average Premium player that started in 2009 has paid as much, or even close to what a VIP that started at the same time has, is at best deslusional and at worst a greedy lie.

The average Premium player probably has paid significantly less into the game than the VIPs that are posting in this thread. But the VIPs that are posting in this thread aren't the average VIPs, either.

Most VIPs don't stick with an MMO for 2 solid years. The "average" VIP that started in 2009 has long since canceled their sub and have paid exactly as much as Premium player theboatman has in the past year (i.e. $0)

If Turbine really made less money on the average Premium player than they make on the average VIP, then they wouldn't be shifting their entire business model to encourage Premium players. Look at all of the adventure packs recently - they're small packs that have relatively low prices to encourage impulse buying. They write one update and then split it into two parts so that they can take a $13 pack and sell it as two $6.50 packs. Everything has been shifted to encourage impulse buying and VIPs that get every account option for free just don't have as much incentive to go into the DDO store and snap up that shiny new trinket because they already own it.

When you look at the average amount of time that a DDO player stays with the game, a Premium player who buys all of the account options is going to spend WAY more money than a VIP who just pays his subscription fee for the same amount of time.

[Mercules]

When you look at the average amount of time that a DDO player stays with the game, a Premium player who buys all of the account options is going to spend WAY more money than a VIP who just pays his subscription fee for the same amount of time.

What is the average amount of time that a DDO player stays with the game? I'm pretty sure neither of us know.

A Premium player RARELY buys all of the account options though. From what I have seen they tend to open up 4-5 characters, the races they want, the shared bank, and the big quest lines like Devil Invasion, Delera's, Desert, and such.

Some VIPs don't spend any TPs beyond the "free" ones they get from their subscription. I am sure they exist, but I've never met one and known it. More often I hear, "Oh, there is a sale on points. Hmmmm.... Might have to buy some for when I TR."

So yes, if a Premium buys everything and the VIP only gets their subscription then the Premium pays more for a year of DDO, but this is not a realistic view of what actually happens.

[theboatman]

No, it's called changing the game mechanics to only allow certain payment options to access certain mechanics of the game.

If the first time bonus were only available to Premium members, and the zero death penalty were only available to F2P players, then you'd be singing a different toon. Get off of your high horse because you chose to rent while we chose to purchase.

Its a difference of access. Using your analogy, its renting access vs purchasing access. We don't own anything more than a subscriber does. We don't keep access past the time that the server's shut down. We don't get special access with our ownership during maintenance that renters don't recieve.

Since I saw my example get used for reference, I'll add a little more detail. I have spent around the same amount as what a subscription would cost. I just bought lump sum packages, and content when it was on sale. I also earn slightly more than a trivial amount of tp through playing. I have every adventure pack unlocked, as well as monk class, warforged race, and halforc race. I bought the shared bank and all the extra space; I have six character slots. I even bought some store quarterstaves for my horcrobat. When I started playing, I enjoyed the game and felt that even though it was technically free, that the software was worthy of my 'donation' similar to how other box games cost 40/50/etc dollars. It't not the cost, by the way, its the principal. I felt that the people responsible should be rewarded for their work. Then down the road, I bought more packages of points, when I was able. But I haven't bought any points recently. I can walk away from the game now or next year knowing I have got value from this hobby, but am not obligated to spend anything more on it.

I can understand the views of the vets that have since gone premium, feeling that they are being slighted. Or those that have never been vets that want the option for a permanent solution without going vip. But the way it is being handled is incorrect. Repeating over and over (and in multiple places) that we don't have a way to access this option (that is not live in game yet, mind you) is different from simply acknowledging that the current solutions do not currently address your needs.

Completely free to play (never spent a cent) can unlock all content on elite, albiet at a huge cost in tp, via Store openers. Stating that this option is inconveinent is ok, or that it is prohibitive costwise in the longterm is ok. Refusing to acknowledge it exists indicates laziness on your part.

Dismissing a second account with elite unlocks as 'counts as outside support' is laziness. If you want a free option, it is there. It just takes time.

Asking for something that is a subscriber only perk over and over is being lazy as well. If you feel so strongly, ask for a change in the billing mechanics. Ask for an overhaul of the system. Or a revamp of how favor works, both the amount earned from quests as well as the rewards.

Being creative and trying to create compromise might provide ideas for potential changes. Being lazy just muddies the discussion and makes the creative ideas harder to find and read.

[Calebro]

Completely free to play (never spent a cent) can unlock all content on elite, albiet at a huge cost in tp, via Store openers. Stating that this option is inconveinent is ok, or that it is prohibitive costwise in the longterm is ok. Refusing to acknowledge it exists indicates laziness on your part.

This is absolutely and categorically untrue.
A completely free to play players cannot open all content on elite. It would cost 400 favor to earn the TP to open one single quest on elite. No single quest is worth 400 favor. He has to grind that favor to get the TP to poen one single quest, and as soon as he does the TP is gone and he can't start a streak.
Once he purchases TP to open more quests on elite, he is no longer completely free to play, so your example fails multiple times.

[theboatman]

This is absolutely and categorically untrue.
A completely free to play players cannot open all content on elite. It would cost 400 favor to earn the TP to open one single quest on elite. No single quest is worth 400 favor. He has to grind that favor to get the TP to poen one single quest, and as soon as he does the TP is gone and he can't start a streak.
Once he purchases TP to open more quests on elite, he is no longer completely free to play, so your example fails multiple times.

A player, given enough time, can certainly unlock every single perk in this game, without ever paying real life currency for turbine points. There is no limit to the number of free turbine points a player can amass, while staying completely free to play.

[BOgre]

I knew there were a FEW perks to being a VIP, like Priority login, bigger buyback buffer, and monthly TP, these aren't core mechanics, but I wasn't aware that PERKS meant core game mechanics. Elite unlock is purchasable, Hard unlock is not. As a Premium player I am excluded from a core game mechanic. Yes there are workarounds, that's not the point. The point is game design and equity between the payment options. And that means that F2P's should have a way of attaining it well, either by favor unlock, TP purchase, or unlock + purchase, as has been suggested. My understanding of the payment options was not that VIP's get MORE than the other options, just that they get it all once, while Premiums have to purchase it piecemeal. If anything, my understanding was that the entire game was available to VIPs only for the duration of their subscription, but Premiums purchases were permanent. Meaning that Premium (meaning BEST) was the top tier. By that logic I also have a problem with no account-wide elite unlock, as it's a core game mechanic that VIPs get but Premiums don't.

Maybe I'm contributing to the round n' round this thread is suffering from, but I don't feel that the segregation between the payment options is a good thing. I don't feel that the VIPs sense of entitlement is warranted (or WAI).

I'd hope that a developer or marketer would chime in here an state clearly what Turbines vision is on the matter, so we can put this thing to bed once and for all.

[Truga]

I thought Walmart was global.

In Soviet USA, Walmart buys YOU!

[SilkofDrasnia]

I don't buy this. Every VIP I know not only pays their monthly fee of $9.99 but also tends to pick up Turbine Points when they go on sale for Armor Kits, TRing, XP pots, upgrading Airships and other little amenities. I know one who states he would spend more during an evening at the bar so picking up TP to get this and that is cheap entertainment for him.

The Turbine Store isn't just selling to F2P and Premium players. You are not the soul reason DDO is still here today. Micro transactions... Yes. Premium players... No.



Look at it this way, you were perfectly willing to take the gamble that Turbine would never come up with something that would make VIP preferable to Premium. It didn't pay off. Why would ANYONE be naive enough to think that Turbine would turn all of it's subscriptions into pay once players? Who here didn't see something like this coming? Oh, right the premium players.





I'm sure they could. I'm not sure they want to. The difference is minimal. It is a difference and there should be some difference between the various account types.

yet its simple facts the past shows it hungh LMAO

@ALL those sayin we premium are crying its nt such thing we are just providing the mirror to some of the VIPS arrogant pedestal like mentality of im the one keeping the game running , garbage stop being vip the whole lots of you and i am sure ddo will survive LMFAO you all just need to get yourselves out of ddo and look at other games XD

vip keeping the game goin for us poor premium shenanigans i say!

personally i dont care if vip i gets it im just really tired of the arrogant elitist attitude of some vips, get over yourselves already

[Lobster5]

The utterly crazed, myopic sense of entitlement in portions of this thread is truly staggering.

You get better stuff for more money. This is how it should be. It's a business.

[Mercules]

Meaning that Premium (meaning BEST) was the top tier.

Actually, if I cancel my subscription I get downgraded from VIP to Premium. Ehem. Premium is second tier, and F2P third.

[Dandonk]

You get better stuff for more money. This is how it should be. It's a business.

So, the 2 month old premium who just bought everything for a 100 bucks should get five times better stuff than the 2 month old VIP?

[Razcar]

The average Premium player...

Of course they have switched to encourage impulse puchases, because VIPs make them too. So no. The DDO shop is not tuned for Premiums at all. If you check what they are selling the crushing majority of items are viable purchases for players from both payment models. The Shop is about consumables and things not included in the VIP package - not the Adventure Packs Premium players so loudly shout and wave about.

"VIPs that get every account option for free" is not true, they get the basic infrastucture for free, but not the furnishing and the nice curtains. And they don't get the grocereries either. VIPs buy character slots, increased bank space, XP pots and things like the FvS class, just like Premiums do, plus pay their sub cost. And 500 free TP does not reach anywhere.

At GDC 2010 Fernando Piaz published the DDO Store all-time bestsellers, and what they make most money out of.

Not one adventure pack is in the list. NOT ONE.

What they sell most of in quantity are Spirit Cakes, Major XP pots and x50 packs of Mod Heal pots. All items as viable to buy for VIPs as for Premiums. What they make most money on are 32 point builds, Major XP pots and +2 tomes. Same goes there.

Here is the list.

What we do get is that we can open Elite. You Premiums want that too? Then pay up.

[Lobster5]

So, the 2 month old premium who just bought everything for a 100 bucks should get five times better stuff than the 2 month old VIP?

We can play "cite the extreme example that temporarily challenges the rule" all day if you like.

But I'm gonna get more xp out of it because I can open it on elite

[Dandonk]

We can play "cite the extreme example that temporarily challenges the rule" all day if you like.

But I'm gonna get more xp out of it because I can open it on elite

Well, as I said before - I'll survive as a premium without this perk. Would it be nice to have? You bet ya! But I'll live.

I just wanted, again, to stress that premium are customers, too. We're not (all) freeloaders.

[gloopygloop]

The utterly crazed, myopic sense of entitlement in portions of this thread is truly staggering.

I'm inclined to agree. VIP accounts thinking that they deserve special treatment just because of their style of payment is disappointing.

[Razcar]

Well, as I said before - I'll survive as a premium without this perk. Would it be nice to have? You bet ya! But I'll live.

I just wanted, again, to stress that premium are customers, too. We're not (all) freeloaders.

I'll open Elite for you Dan. (Let's just not tell anyone that we'll both die in there... again and again and again )

[Lobster5]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that premium players are freeloaders, but you _are_ making rational economic decisions based on what's available to you. This new feature changes the factors involved in those decisions. It is beautifully poised. It makes VIP more attractive. This is precisely how it ought to work.

What is amazing is that people think this is somehow "unfair" because their economic decisions are now challenged rather than sitting absolutely comfortably with them. If I were a turbine exec I would be reading this thread and slapping whoever came up with the idea heartily on the back, but that doesn't mean it's not fair, it means they got the pricing point right.

It also suggests that previously the pricing point may have been wrong, which is why all the smug premiums (myself included) are having to reconsider.

[thegreatneil]

Elite unlock is purchasable, Hard unlock is not.

This is a good point, as Hard unlock should be in the DDO store, just like elite unlock is.