Bravery bonus and F2P/Premium

[Uska]

You might be surprised as to how many of us that paid for the game and development in its early stages (i.e., before DDO: Eberon Unlimited came out) are in the Premium camp.

If you're holding your breath waiting for Turbine to acknowledge and reward past loyalty and support, I recommend laying down first.

Well some of us still subscribe from back then and we dont get a lot more but not a lot more was ever promised.

[Uska]

We're not asking for rewards for past loyalty. We're asking to not be excluded from a game mechanic based on our payment option.
Not being able to open hard or elite before was annoying, but acceptable.
Not being able to open hard or elite after the Bravery Bonus goes live will effectively be punishment for choosing a certain payment option.

We should not be punished because we chose to purchase the game rather than renting it.

I dont see it as a punishment for premium rather as a reward for VIP though I do think the TR idea is a good one

[dingal]

Even as a premium player myself, I wouldn't recommend allowing a permanent unlock of hard/elite difficulties via the DDOStore. VIP needs some things to make it a worthwhile option when competing with Premium, and and such an addition to those benefits (without taking anything away from F2P or Premium, I might add) like the bravery bonus is, IMO, a good thing.

This.

I see a lot of complaints about how the bravery bonus penalizes F2P players when it does no such thing. F2P players can continue to get XP the same way they always have with no problem. They can also run all quests in their given level range on norm then again on hard, then again on elite and get the bravery bonus that way.

Sorry guys at some point you have to allow there to be a good reason to go VIP other than unlocking elite for favor runs and now this provides a very distinct benefit. I've been paying VIP for quite some time and am personally glad to see it.

[Isolani]

Are you trolling on purpose here or are you really that confused?

There is no option to purchase an account wide Elite (or Hard) unlock.

$9.99 per month isn't purchasing. It's renting.

Premiums already own the game, now you just have to decide if you want to rent the bravery bonus. Honestly, if I was premium, I would just go VIP and it wouldn't really bother me, the bravery bonus would be worth $10 a month to me. Just opening on elite was worth $10 a month to me already. And I would still own the game anytime I canceled VIP. But then, I'm not exactly a penny pincher when it comes to DDO so maybe I'm not the best person for this argument. I'm sure I've blown close to $1000 at the store in addition to being VIP.

I wouldn't be against Premium getting open on hard by the way.

[Uska]

Not even having the OPTION to get that bonus because of playstyle and payment choice, without spending an OBSCENE amount of money, does indeed make it a penalty.

And for the record, the word penalty is defined as : something that is forfeited.
If you are premium and you choose to solo or don't have a VIP in your group, nor anyone that has run the quest yet on any difficulty other than casual, you forfeit that bonus. Therefore it is indeed, by definition, a penalty.

penalty or reward depends on your point of view really a bonus is a bonus just because you dont get means your getting a penalty although the way they set it up it looks a lot like one the elite opening is a VIP reward they should have worded the bravery thing different so as not to look like they were punishing free or premium and that they were just provdidng insintive to be VIP

[mystafyi]

There is no option to purchase an account wide Elite (or Hard) unlock.

$9.99 per month isn't purchasing. It's renting.

Incorrect. you can get access to elite unlocks account wide by purchasing vip status.

you are not renting anything in this case. you are paying 9.99/month for the ability to unlock elite, 500TP/month and all content.

No matter how much you spend on this game you never will own anything. everything is owned by turbine and can be shut down in a second. The difference between premium and VIP is that one buys the right to access certain content via individual purchases, and one buys the right to access all content via a combined recurring purchase. Either way, you own nothing and so your arguement is invalid.

[Postumus]

So what MadFloyd, the designer of the Bravery Bonus, has just stated is that he did not create said bonus to be a VIP only perk.


You may not think that it is a VIP only perk, but even though he didn't intent it to be that way, the designer certainly does.

This seems to be a problem with a lot of the tweaks they've been making lately.

[Stillwaters]

I don't see giving free elite open to TR (or even dbl+ TR) as a fair way as even FTP (never paid a dime on the game) can TR quite easily within a week with guild help.

Considering how easy the workaround is via lfms, and due this new mechanic, MANY more ppl will have done elite versions of the quests and thus it will be easier to find an opener.

That being said, maybe a small compromise could be made:

How's this idea sit with VIP and PREM that are currently argueing in circles - instead of the store unlocks only being 1 shot, let them work for an hour(just a number i pulled out of the air), you could rush around doing elite quests then go back for the grind with full bravery bonus?

I like that idea way more than giving away one of the last reasons to continue paying Turbine, i have both unlocked everything for when im PREM and also subscribe when i have more time to play than usual.

[sephiroth1084]

It *IS* a new set of rules, and it is not just a perk. It is a change to the core game mechanics. Tying how you choose to pay for the game to how much xp you get from a quest. It fundementally changes the difference between VIP and Premium.

VIP members have historically had access to all the content, they have not historically had significant gameplay advantages. What are VIPs entitled to next? 50 point character builds? Gaurenteed raid loot on every completion? How about double mana for VIP spellcasters? Where's the line in the segregation once you go down the road of making a one subscription model have better game mechanics.

If the tables were turned the the premium players got a +20% boost and the VIPs didn't, the VIPs would be up in arms. A constant xp bonus is a huge difference when you're talking multiple TR's, it could save days or weeks worth of game time depending on your TR plans. And for the record, yes I use xp pots constantly when I TR.

Except, again, the benefits aren't exclusively given to VIPs, so more ******** analogies and hyperbole from the peanut gallery.

Mechanics aren't changing fundamentally. The game still plays exactly the same for non-grouping, non-VIPs who weren't looking for openers before. Sure, VIPs can level faster, but that was always somewhat true, as Premium players were necessarily limited to which quests they could run, as unless you had all the packs (or at least all of the high-level packs) leveling would necessarily slow down, at least a little bit.



Now, if the same feature were offered in the store at a high enough cost that it wouldn't completely obviate the urge to go VIP for this benefit, everyone would be *****ing about how overpriced the thing is and how unfair it is to charge Premium players so much.


No one is hurt by this, because it doesn't take anything away from anybody.
No one is barred from gaining the benefits of this change.
Anyone can join elite-run groups, put up LFMs seeking an elite opener or ask their friends and/or guildies for a hand opening a quest.

The only people who won't benefit from this are soloists who don't want to wait around for an opener. And really, if you're into hardcore leveling, it probably makes sense to abandon that aversion to waiting for openers as, if you can get quests opened for you semi-quickly, with some planning, it's likely possible to get better XP/minute even with a little bit of a wait if you take the quests in the right order.

[gloopygloop]

No one is hurt by this, because it doesn't take anything away from anybody.
No one is barred from gaining the benefits of this change.
Anyone can join elite-run groups, put up LFMs seeking an elite opener or ask their friends and/or guildies for a hand opening a quest.

No one would be hurt by allowing an account option that lets premium players open on Hard or Elite, either.

No one is barred from remaining VIP (and it makes a lot of financial sense to stay VIP for most paying players).

[sephiroth1084]

How's this idea sit with VIP and PREM that are currently argueing in circles - instead of the store unlocks only being 1 shot, let them work for an hour(just a number i pulled out of the air), you could rush around doing elite quests then go back for the grind with full bravery bonus?

I like that idea way more than giving away one of the last reasons to continue paying Turbine, i have both unlocked everything for when im PREM and also subscribe when i have more time to play than usual.

That seems like a pretty reasonable solution. Players would then have several options for gaining the XP boost:

• Be a VIP
• Be part of a group running the quest on elite (put up LFM or join one)
• Get someone to open the quest for you
• Buy a short-duration, 1-shot opener for the quest, like a Chime of Opening

Honestly, this seems pretty close to making Bravery function like XP pots; VIPs essentially get some number of XP pots every month (assuming they spend their "free" 500 TP on those), while Premium players can choose to spend real money on those some pots.

[Stillwaters]

That seems like a pretty reasonable solution. Players would then have several options for gaining the XP boost:

• Be a VIP
• Be part of a group running the quest on elite (put up LFM or join one)
• Get someone to open the quest for you
• Buy a short-duration, 1-shot opener for the quest, like a Chime of Opening

Honestly, this seems pretty close to making Bravery function like XP pots; VIPs essentially get some number of XP pots every month (assuming they spend their "free" 500 TP on those), while Premium players can choose to spend real money on those some pots.

You forgot you could also create your own separate elite opener account (but that is sort of tied in with your point 3).

Personally, i have a foot in both camps. I pay for VIP just to open elite quests (and did so WAY before this Bravery perk was introduced) so wouldn't like to now see it given away for any reason.
I also love that this benefit already applies to everyone, its just a few nutters that cant see that.

[sephiroth1084]

No one would be hurt by allowing an account option that lets premium players open on Hard or Elite, either.

Untrue.

A lot of players have been complaining about the fact that they feel that being VIP doesn't offer enough benefits to justify their $10/month, and have been doing so for a long time. What benefits are there currently for being VIP?

• Ability to open quests on Hard and Elite
• Access to any and all quest/explorer content so long as subscription is maintained
• 10 character slots so long as subscription is maintained
• 500 TP/month

VIP is good if you don't ever take an extended break from DDO and don't play DDO for a very long time, as in the first case you're likely wasting money on a subscription you aren't using (unless you force yourself to continue playing until your current sub expires), and in the second you could have simply bought everything you get from being a VIP for less than you've subscribed for, and will have all of it available whenever you want.

Now, with all the new stuff that has come out, I don't know what the cost is to "buy" DDO, but I'm pretty sure it's less than the amount I've spent being a subscriber for 3 years, and will definitely be less than I'll have spent in a year or two from now. The only reason I haven't gone Premium is because I haven't had the lump sum to just drop on this available. VIP needs some tangible benefits for people who do have the funds to just buy DDO. This is one and, gloriously, is a benefit that isn't an exclusive for VIPs! It just works a little better for them than it does for non-VIPs.

Really, are all the people complaining about this here strict soloers who can't ever be bothered to get openers for their quests? I admit, getting an opener is a pain sometimes, and not fun, but most of you (you being the naysayers) sound as though grouping or getting an opener were worse than getting a tooth pulled!

[mystafyi]

No one would be hurt by allowing an account option that lets premium players open on Hard or Elite, either.

No one is barred from remaining VIP (and it makes a lot of financial sense to stay VIP for most paying players).

It makes no financial sense to stay VIP with no Perks. Basic economics.

[sephiroth1084]

You forgot you could also create your own separate elite opener account (but that is sort of tied in with your point 3).

Huh?

[Stillwaters]

Huh?

I meant your 3rd option[*] Get someone to open the quest for you - if you use 2 pcs and a 2nd account to make an elite opener you can still do this without involving any 3rd party.

[gloopygloop]

It makes no financial sense to stay VIP with no Perks. Basic economics.

If you would like to run quests in a significant number of the adventure packs and if you would like to play characters that use one of the P2P races/classes and you think you might not keep that account more than 6 months to a year.
Most players don't stick around for more than a year.

Buying a home makes a lot of sense if you're going to stay in it for 20 years.
Renting a home makes a lot of sense if you're going to stay in it for 6 months.

Basic economics.

[Stillwaters]

Buying a home makes a lot of sense if you're going to stay in it for 20 years.
Renting a home makes a lot of sense if you're going to stay in it for 6 months.

Basic economics.

Good analogy.

But if renting came with a free PERK like what VIP had.. Say Furnishings, you might extend the time you rent, if the furnishings were good enough you might even buy that home but continue to rent the furnishings as well. --- I think this is what Turbine may be going for.

[sephiroth1084]

I meant your 3rd option[*] Get someone to open the quest for you - if you use 2 pcs and a 2nd account to make an elite opener you can still do this without involving any 3rd party.

That's just a complicated version of point 1: Be a VIP.

[Aaxeyu]

It makes no financial sense to stay VIP with no Perks. Basic economics.

That's utter rubbish.

If you should go VIP or not depends on how often you play, how long you think you will be playing and pricings (among other things).

It makes no financial sense to keep certain things VIP only. It works against their obviously very successful buissness model.