Nerf PMs and Implosion or just make mobs save better against that

[Tirisha]

Why not? It's how it should be. You don't like something, stay away from it, but leave it for those that enjoy it.

The balance as it is now is there is a large grind with a big payoff, which is how it should be.

First: It's not a large grind. What is a large grind is trying to make a Non-caster preform almost as well as a Caster can preform with very little gear.

Second: I don't dislike DDO enough to stay away from it yet.

[Emili]

My WF AM has tanked more than once: Bosses in Snitch (Yawn) and Sulu on ToD. The CAD when we were learning EChrono and multiple melee tank deaths, and last night I was 3rd on the aggro list and just tanked the last %10. I was out of SP so just got my cold shield up, only took about 200dmg from fire breath.

I would tank Echrono on my Wiz but may take a couple of pots...maybe just do it once or twice. It's more about being prepared to mitigate damage and hold aggro.

Maybe a 1 minute cooldown on SP pots is needed, I can knock those back like a cold one when doing shortman runs for fun.

I was just thinking 'bout last night when he menioned that. Who did I bring there? Was my pally or a bard? Seemed an easy run. Generally though, a well built caster or divine adjusts to tanking much better than a melee.

[ForwardWu]

Does the unfair really lies in
(1) a well equipped melee under-perform relative to a well-equipped caster, or
(2) is it all of a sudden our well-equipped melee toon is now marginalized in the epic content?
(3) or we have pre-conception that a high end melee should always have a place in a high end content?
(4) I want extremely challenge and no easy button

If the issue is (1), it makes me curious that no one even mentioned about range / pew pew character. In DDO, pew pew is always considered an inferior mode of dps, and seems we all have accepted this imbalance in the DDO history. So i will say the issue is not really lies in "imbalance" between combat style

If it is (2), then we have to accept that all MMORPG is dynamic in balancing issue. Once a while all toon is using S&B when the difference between S&B / TWF is not that much. How about the sudden boost of Tempest ranger and a sudden nerf of tempest. The usual rule of MMO is no game mechanic is forever.

For (3), if you are looking for a game that melee always is the KING, i think DDO in the last 3 years suits what you want. However, right now the pendulum has swing to caster, so if you want an easy button you can just follow the swing, or you can "gimp" yourself and play a melee toon.

For (4), I dont see why the old method "Mass-Hold-Auto-Criti" is a challenge. Maybe it is more difficult to find a CC caster and 3 DPSer than building a 45+ necro dc soloist, but sorry i cant see there is very major different in terms of difficulty here. I dont really think the game content and mechanics make DDO a real challenge in general gaming, save SOLO or DUO raids. If you are looking for real intellectual challenge from gaming, simple game such as Go, Bridge can be very challenging.

[Viisari]

Does the unfair really lies in
(1) a well equipped melee under-perform relative to a well-equipped caster, or
(2) is it all of a sudden our well-equipped melee toon is now marginalized in the epic content?
(3) or we have pre-conception that a high end melee should always have a place in a high end content?
(4) I want extremely challenge and no easy button

Pretty much all of those. A well geared caster will perform better than a well geared melee in 99% of the content in this game. There are rare specific encounters where taking a melee would perhaps be better, but they are rare, and you could even run the quest as a caster and then swap for a melee for that single fight.

Why bother taking melees when you could just take a few casters that will instakill, cc and do dps in boss fights? Oh, and most of them also selfheal, any potential divine in the party can just add more dps and instakills for the group instead of bothering with heals.

Also, as far as epic content goes, arcanes have ALWAYS been the kings, but now it has gone so far that there simply is no role for melees except in few very specific instances.

[ForwardWu]

from what you have said i think you are more or less tight to the (1) reason, classes should be balanced. But, as I wondered, why no one stands out and say Uberification of 45+DC caster has even more marginalized the Pew Pew build? Is it Ranging toon is already out of our consideration when we talk about Epic content? So we are not really comparing between all the options, we are only comparing between 45+ DC caster vs well build melee toon.

From a game designer perspective, there will be no real balance in any time. Due to time lag between feedback and game design, you can never balance every aspect of a game system that have real class differentiation. The concept of "balance" is very tricky, as we never quantify it and only consider general feedback from players comments. If you balance each class from lv 1 to lv 20, and from casual to epic, I think all we need is just 1 class but not 11 classes.

To me, DDO should not consider balance as high priority, as the fun part of DDO is the mix-and-match multi-class toon build.

[Viisari]

Is it Ranging toon is already out of our consideration when we talk about Epic content?

When considering optimal options, yes, and have been for a long time.

I'm not asking for perfect balance, but when there's a situation where 4 classes out of 11 are clearly superior, and of those 4 one is considerably less powerful than the rest 3 for anything but being a pure healbot, something is wrong.

[Crystalizer]

... It continues to freak me out that this player base consistnatly calls for nerfs instead of better content. It's like the thought never crossed your mind...

best post of the thread

[Lissyl]

When considering optimal options, yes, and have been for a long time.

I'm not asking for perfect balance, but when there's a situation where 4 classes out of 11 are clearly superior, and of those 4 one is considerably less powerful than the rest 3 for anything but being a pure healbot, something is wrong.

Don't you think those ranged characters deserve EVERY BIT the shot melee have? See, that's where my disconnect is. Melee were king, casters and ranged were has-beens. Melee is dethroned, casters become king, and ranged are still has-beens. And yet, even seeing how the 'other half' have been ALL THIS TIME...you can only complain about melee not being 'optimal'.

Your turn will come. Relax and kick back, enjoy the ride a bit. Otherwise, if you're going to fight a battle for 'balance', at LEAST have the temerity to wage that battle equally, not just for your preferred flavor.

[Kmnh]

I've never heard a well geared, well played melee complaining about OP casters on my parties. It's the terrible barbs that whine about the trash dying too quickly

Why do you care about killing trash anyway? it's not like those fights would be hard, not with squishy mobs that u9 has brought to us.

[Khellendros13]

I was just thinking 'bout last night when he menioned that. Who did I bring there? Was my pally or a bard? Seemed an easy run. Generally though, a well built caster or divine adjusts to tanking much better than a melee.

You were on einin I believe.

We have had smoother runs, but they are more boring lol.

[EvilI]

Make more mobs cast deathward, or take a step back and let some mobs wear deathblock items?

[Kriogen]

You can never have balance.

For a class(build) to have a reason to exists it must have something that others do not. Barbarian must Rage so hes not like a Fighter, ranger must have evasion/favored enemy so hes not like a barbarian that never rages ... wizard that can't instakill is like a Bard that never sings. Etc.

At that's the source of 'unbalance'. You have something that others do not have.

The only way to have balance is if everything would be Ford Fiesta or MS Windows. To have only 1 single model.

And even that, single model, doesn't work. Someone will always be better then you. And I guess no one likes that. If everyone would be Wizard, someone would still have better DC or whatever. And then some players would want a nerf. Hey, add Firefox to vanila Windows and its better. But I guess IE should demand some nerfs.

[Viisari]

Don't you think those ranged characters deserve EVERY BIT the shot melee have? See, that's where my disconnect is. Melee were king, casters and ranged were has-beens. Melee is dethroned, casters become king, and ranged are still has-beens. And yet, even seeing how the 'other half' have been ALL THIS TIME...you can only complain about melee not being 'optimal'.

Your turn will come. Relax and kick back, enjoy the ride a bit. Otherwise, if you're going to fight a battle for 'balance', at LEAST have the temerity to wage that battle equally, not just for your preferred flavor.

Heh, I've been running epics on my caster long before U9 was here, and trust me, casters were king even back then. Practically every party NEEDED a caster, yet not every party needed a melee. Melees were there only to beat the **** out of held stuff so that, it rarely mattered how good the melees were, but in many places, how good your caster was practically determined whether you could complete the quest or not.

There are very few quests in this game where I bother being selective about who I take, but at the heart of the issue here is this: Given a choice of caster vs. anything, it is almost always better to take the caster. This is especially true for epics.

True, there are few specific situations where melee will perform better, but in rest of the content casters reign supreme, and always have.

[Viisari]

I've never heard a well geared, well played melee complaining about OP casters on my parties. It's the terrible barbs that whine about the trash dying too quickly

One of my guildies has a blitz that is only missing tod set, he has all other gear he wants (greater abishai, eclaw set etc, he can out-dps 99% of the melees in Thelanis), yet he doesn't bother moving from center in eDA anymore. Guess why? He doesn't have to, by the time he reaches any archers or casters, they're likely to be killed by the caster. He's basically there just to kill the few boss mobs, rest of the time he can just pike and is not needed. And even those boss mobs are easily killed by a group of casters, so if I get some casters there, I don't need a melee for the boss fights either.

Now show me a melee party that can complete eDA. And no, 44 charisma spellsingers don't count as melees (unless they dualwield dynastic falcatas like a certain someone I know lol)

Pretty balanced, right?

[Lissyl]

Heh, I've been running epics on my caster long before U9 was here, and trust me, casters were king even back then. Practically every party NEEDED a caster, yet not every party needed a melee. Melees were there only to beat the **** out of held stuff so that, it rarely mattered how good the melees were, but in many places, how good your caster was practically determined whether you could complete the quest or not.

There are very few quests in this game where I bother being selective about who I take, but at the heart of the issue here is this: Given a choice of caster vs. anything, it is almost always better to take the caster. This is especially true for epics.

True, there are few specific situations where melee will perform better, but in rest of the content casters reign supreme, and always have.

The data seemed to suggest otherwise. Virtually EVERY CASTER POSTING has suggested otherwise. The advice I was given by the vets when ~I~ FIRST ROLLED a caster suggested otherwise. In fact, everything except a couple of posters suggests otherwise -- posters who seem to have an awful lot of prejudice towards the current system, at that. Again...it reads just like a 3rd/4th edition war. Not to mention that immunity to death spells and the incredible amount of hit points these mobs used to have makes it incredibly unlikely that wizards were handily owning content without using the 'please beat on me and my uber gear until my spellpoints are back' strategy, something that requires a considerable amount of time. That's not exactly 'owning' content, that's using a handy trick every time NORMAL players would have been stumped and helpless without the reliance on store pots.

Given the OVERWHELMING preponderance of evidence, I have no choice but to consider this mere hyperbole, and to note that this whole series of threads has become tiresome repeating of the same things by, in many cases, the same posters.

[Doxmaster]

I'm back; forgot my keys.

What is balance? Whose's definition are we using? Obviously, there is some form of disconnect, since we have a good hundred or so people saying this is balanced, that isnt, but this other thing is...

Halfway through this thread, I started substituting words in place of "balance" and its pretty amusing...15 pages of people claiming being able to kill several enemies from a distance is "Totally ponies, bro."

[Viisari]

The data seemed to suggest otherwise. Virtually EVERY CASTER POSTING has suggested otherwise.

There is a simple answer for this. Many vets I know are well aware that the game is broken, and has been for a long time in favor of casters. But they don't care. Or rather, even if they care they don't really bother themselves with it. They simply play their melees when they want and stomp content on their casters when they want. I do the same.

Now I didn't claim that casters would single handedly blow through any content, especially pre-U9, but they were still the single most powerful entity in any given party.

And not every caster who actually is posting and knows his stuff is suggesting that casters weren't broken before, myself included. The mere fact that basically every epic party RELIED AND STILL RELIES ON THE CASTER means that they are far more powerful than any melee toon, and now that they can do cost effective dps and instakills in epics, it means that melees have no role, which they still did have pre-U9.

But no matter what you think of caster power pre-U9, it was still THE CASTER that made running the content EASILY possible.

I dare you to deny this.

[Lissyl]

I dare you to deny this.

The caster made it easier, yes. He wasn't essential. He was essential to completing it as fast as efficiently possible, a distinction that your mindset takes for granted. However, this is NOT the position of the developers (and any casual perusal of the manner of changes should make that pretty apparent). If one were so inclined, a party could be made to deal with the challenges of an epic without any class except the 'healer'...and with ~enough~ silver flame pots, even they could be overlooked. The problem was that that wasn't ~fast enough~ for the 'optimizers'. That's ~THEIR OWN~ fault. And reinforcing that all-speed-all-the-time mindset is what has made this change so unpalatable to them, because now that casters CAN do something other than please melee with added speed, they are.

[ForwardWu]

The following is what I think what "balance" is.

From my general understanding MMO, usually we defines major classes as follow:

Melee : Sustainable medicore dps, limited CC, Higher HP
Healers : Low dps, Heals, Buffs, Medicore HP, limited Spell Points
Caster : Best Burst dps, Buff, CC, lower HP, limited Spell Points
Range : Sustainable medicore dps, limited CC, Lower hp

Melee usually place 2nd or 3rd in dps, and usually compensated by better Armor and HP. In DDO, it turns out that melee is the preferred mode of dps b/c casters have limited resources, and range combat is simply gimp.

Right now, caster can kill mob faster, but still they have lower hp and limited spell points to do the fast killing. Melee, which still can attain higher hp and fit in the role of sustainable dps.

So, based on my "balance" definition, the situation right now is quite balance....

[Viisari]

The caster made it easier, yes. He wasn't essential. He was essential to completing it as fast as efficiently possible, a distinction that your mindset takes for granted. However, this is NOT the position of the developers (and any casual perusal of the manner of changes should make that pretty apparent). If one were so inclined, a party could be made to deal with the challenges of an epic without any class except the 'healer'...and with ~enough~ silver flame pots, even they could be overlooked. The problem was that that wasn't ~fast enough~ for the 'optimizers'. That's ~THEIR OWN~ fault. And reinforcing that all-speed-all-the-time mindset is what has made this change so unpalatable to them, because now that casters CAN do something other than please melee with added speed, they are.

Yes you could still *do some* epic quests without an arcane (though the ones I've done pre-U9 without an arcane had a divine using greater command, and divines are casters...), the usage of resources in such a run will often be many times higher than in a run that does have an acane.

But the fact is, that outside the very best players, arcanes basically were essential. And even then, there were, and still are, quests where they practically are essential even for the elite players. Sure you can run quests without arcanes or divine evokers (no, healbots don't count), but there are many quests where you'll be spending over twice as much time as you would if you have them with you. And if you take a few more good casters in a difficult quests it'll be much, much smoother than if you had taken a couple good melees instead.

So no, even if it is possible to run quests without arcanes, the resource consumption and extra time spent just reinforces my point: Arcanes were, and are a requirement for a smooth epic run. You can run Phiarlan and Deneith epics even without arcanes, but it won't be nearly as smooth or fast if you had taken the arcane, and spent resources are going to skyrocket. Good luck trying deserts without arcanes or evokers (or crazy "bards" ).