Nerf PMs and Implosion or just make mobs save better against that

[ForwardWu]

We need caster in group b/c they can buff/CC/insta kill.
We need melee in group b/c they can dps/tank/CC
We need healer in group b/c they can heal/CC/insta kill

In any group combination, it will be always good to have a CC b/c a party is limited by 6 slots, and melee can only dps 1 mob at 1 time, while we may be facing 10+ mobs at one time......

When ppls keep saying insta kill epic mob is too easy button, why dont they think pre-U9 a well build melee can CC 3 different mobs and keep on dps Or a caster can use 1 mass-hold CC everything is too easy button as well?

[BoBoDaClown]

The following is what I think what "balance" is.

From my general understanding MMO, usually we defines major classes as follow:

Melee : Sustainable medicore dps, limited CC, Higher HP
Healers : Low dps, Heals, Buffs, Medicore HP, limited Spell Points
Caster : Best Burst dps, Buff, CC, lower HP, limited Spell Points
Range : Sustainable medicore dps, limited CC, Lower hp

Melee usually place 2nd or 3rd in dps, and usually compensated by better Armor and HP. In DDO, it turns out that melee is the preferred mode of dps b/c casters have limited resources, and range combat is simply gimp.

Right now, caster can kill mob faster, but still they have lower hp and limited spell points to do the fast killing. Melee, which still can attain higher hp and fit in the role of sustainable dps.

So, based on my "balance" definition, the situation right now is quite balance....

Problem is that in DDO you'd have to add heals to that caster list, and remove 'limited' SP for some casters. Plus casters have very good defences (albeit not as good hps as melee); they can displace while moving around to avoid damage - melee have to stick to close range combat - thus allowing for more incoming damage.

[Lissyl]

Yes you could still *do some* epic quests without an arcane (though the ones I've done pre-U9 without an arcane had a divine using greater command, and divines are casters...), the usage of resources in such a run will often be many times higher than in a run that does have an acane.

But the fact is, that outside the very best players, arcanes basically were essential. And even then, there were, and still are, quests where they practically are essential even for the elite players. Sure you can run quests without arcanes or divine evokers (no, healbots don't count), but there are many quests where you'll be spending over twice as much time as you would if you have them with you. And if you take a few more good casters in a difficult quests it'll be much, much smoother than if you had taken a couple good melees instead.

So no, even if it is possible to run quests without arcanes, the resource consumption and extra time spent just reinforces my point: Arcanes were, and are a requirement for a smooth epic run. You can run Phiarlan and Deneith epics even without arcanes, but it won't be nearly as smooth or fast if you had taken the arcane, and spent resources are going to skyrocket. Good luck trying deserts without arcanes or evokers (or crazy "bards" ).

...exactly. They were only necessary because of a self-inflicted sense of 'efficiency'. You've gone from 'Casters were king!' to 'Casters were necessary!' to 'Casters were fundamental!' to 'Caster made stuff faster!' and 'Casters made it cost not quite so much'. I think we've pretty thoroughly eliminated this line of reasoning regarding pre-U9, then. You can't arbitrarily place a set of limits on the definition of 'necessary', then proceed to argue that they are 'necessary' without ever covering the arbitrary set of limits you placed -- it's goalpost moving, it's sophistry (and its thrown this whole thread offtrack, although I'm pretty sure we weren't the ones who started that trend ).

As I've said countless times -- the group that moves towards 'all efficiency' is limiting their own fun and arguing with their own definitions that seem to fall outside the norm (and, at least in my opinion, outside the definitions that the developers are using). That's not the games fault, that's not a caster's fault, that's not Turbine's fault -- that's ~their~ fault.

At either rate, it's been a lively debate but bedtime calls. Have a good night Vilsari.

[Viisari]

Right now, caster can kill mob faster, but still they have lower hp and limited spell points to do the fast killing. Melee, which still can attain higher hp and fit in the role of sustainable dps.

So, based on my "balance" definition, the situation right now is quite balance....

Casters kill mobs instantly, can have enough hp (without sacrificing anything) to tank almost all bosses in the game and can do sustainable dps. So basically they can do everything melees can do and more. My fleshie archmage can get over 500hp with starting con of 16. Granted, I have pretty much all the gear on him, but this just shows it's not that hard to get around (random tod ring with +1 exceptional con isn't too hard to get, GS hp item is basic gear), or even over 600hp for a geared palemaster or wf caster.

While casters did not have a good way to deal sustainable dps before, dot spells have changed that, and can now dish out more sustainable dps than most melee chars can.

Spell points as a limiting factor are rather marginal, even if we're not counting pots.

This whole balance discussion comes from the fact that arcanes can not only do the same things that melees can, they can often do it better. And that's not even counting the stuff that melees can't do.

[Viisari]

...exactly. They were only necessary because of a self-inflicted sense of 'efficiency'. You've gone from 'Casters were king!' to 'Casters were necessary!' to 'Casters were fundamental!' to 'Caster made stuff faster!' and 'Casters made it cost not quite so much'. I think we've pretty thoroughly eliminated this line of reasoning regarding pre-U9, then. You can't arbitrarily place a set of limits on the definition of 'necessary', then proceed to argue that they are 'necessary' without ever covering the arbitrary set of limits you placed -- it's goalpost moving, it's sophistry (and its thrown this whole thread offtrack, although I'm pretty sure we weren't the ones who started that trend ).

As I've said countless times -- the group that moves towards 'all efficiency' is limiting their own fun and arguing with their own definitions that seem to fall outside the norm (and, at least in my opinion, outside the definitions that the developers are using). That's not the games fault, that's not a caster's fault, that's not Turbine's fault -- that's ~their~ fault.

At either rate, it's been a lively debate but bedtime calls. Have a good night Vilsari.

I didn't change my opinion, I still think casters were the kings pre-U9. And sure, if you enjoy running epics and taking over twice the time time I do, then be my quest. Though I have to ask, have you ever run epic content, other than phiarlan and deneith, without a caster?

Also, you have to remember that very few people run epic content because it's somehow awesome. Most run it simply because they want gear, so it's a grind for them. They get their enjoyment from when they finally complete the item they were grinding for. And this is the reason why basically everyone wants to do epics with maximum effeciency.

The fact that it's possible to do some epic quests without arcanes or evokers doesn't change the fact that nobody does so because it is much more resource intesive and takes much more time. For this reason it is rather safe to say that arcanes (or in some cases evokers) are, and were a requirement to run epic quests.

You can try to bend it however you want, but I never (the only one I've seen was a run we did with my guild for the heck of it, and that was The Snitch, which is a very easy one) see an epic run that doesn't have and isn't looking for an arcane caster. This alone speaks volumes, atleast for me.

[gloopygloop]

And not every caster who actually is posting and knows his stuff is suggesting that casters weren't broken before, myself included. The mere fact that basically every epic party RELIED AND STILL RELIES ON THE CASTER means that they are far more powerful than any melee toon, and now that they can do cost effective dps and instakills in epics, it means that melees have no role, which they still did have pre-U9.

But no matter what you think of caster power pre-U9, it was still THE CASTER that made running the content EASILY possible.

I dare you to deny this.

Every single raid relied on and still relies on a Hjealer much more than it relies on an Arcane caster. Does that mean that Clerics and FvS (and some Bards) are more far more powerful than any melee or Arcane casting character?

[Scraap]

Every single raid relied on and still relies on a Hjealer much more than it relies on an Arcane caster. Does that mean that Clerics and FvS (and some Bards) are more far more powerful than any melee or Arcane casting character?

Yes, but divines have the inherent "nerfbat immunity" feat to keep folks wanting to play them. :P

/casts fireshield, invisiblity, and expeditious retreat

[Viisari]

Every single raid relied on and still relies on a Hjealer much more than it relies on an Arcane caster. Does that mean that Clerics and FvS (and some Bards) are more far more powerful than any melee or Arcane casting character?

Heh, if you have to ask, then go run with a good evoker. And arcanes are even more powerful than evokers.

Raid party full of arcane does not rely on divine healers and a raid party full of divines can heal itself. The differences between arcanes and divines is that arcanes are generally better at AoE, single target damage and instant death. Blade barrier is better in some cases than anything arcanes have and implosion works wonders against undead and golems. So arcanes are better in general, but evokers pull ahead in some situations.

But anyway, both arcanes and divines are far ahead other classes, arcanes are just more in general.

[Khurse]

You can try to bend it however you want, but I never (the only one I've seen was a run we did with my guild for the heck of it, and that was The Snitch, which is a very easy one) see an epic run that doesn't have and isn't looking for an arcane caster. This alone speaks volumes, atleast for me.

So this says volumes, but the fact that pretty much every LFM for Epics (on Ghallanda at least) still accepts multiple melees doesn't say anything?

And yes, I have run the Fens chain without a caster,OOB without a caster,Von without a caster, as well as the Sentinels and Carnival lines. They weren't as fast as they are with a good caster, but they were faster than they are with a a bad caster so..

The fact that it's possible to do some epic quests without arcanes or evokers doesn't change the fact that nobody does so because it is much more resource intesive and takes much more time. For this reason it is rather safe to say that arcanes (or in some cases evokers) are, and were a requirement to run epic quests.

No, it says nothing of the sort.
Not being able to complete a quest without an arcane or evoker says that they are a requirement to run epics.
Claiming that the idea that it's faster /easier to run an epic with a decent arcane means that they are a requirement is ludicrous.

[Khurse]

Now please excuse me while I get back to pressing the easy button of Wail over and over until my loot drops.

You're right.
Much better the easy button of beating on Mobs surrounded by those little blue rings so they can't fight back against x4 crit weapons.

Again why does the quest being a complete joke because the trash can not fight back (but your kill count looks nice) compare so much better to the quest being a joke but your kill count is less than the casters?

Why not argue instead for an improvement of the Epic quest design?

[Khurse]

It's a mixed bag for me. I love my non-casters have spent a lot of time playing and gearing most of them. However they don't really fit into any roles well enough to justify the sacrifices I've made in their builds to fill those roles, now that my casters can fill so many roles at once. I'd love to have a good reason to play them again *other than playing for playing sake*.

Uhmm again- it's a game.
It's supposed to be fun.

As mentioned I have fun playing my Monk, that's why I play him. If have fun playing your melees ,you are allowed to do so.
If you don't have fun playing your melees because they don't individually dominate a quest like a good caster can, that's unfortunate. But it's your choice.
I don't see calling for other people's toons to be brought down to where your comfort zone for level of play is as a reasonable solution.

[gyerv59]

If people want to avoid nerfs, maybe we should instead give melees two abilities, each on a 30 second cooldown, that can wipe out 15000-25000hp worth of foes.

Maybe we might change the Monk Touch of Death to deal 10000 damage instead of 500. They'd still be weak on epic trash compared to casters, but they'd be in the same ballpark at least.

While we are at it, let's change Power Surge to grant quadruple melee damage. Again casters would still be far better on epic trash, but you might pull a Kensai along to make a boss fight quicker.

And let's take Supreme Cleave and boost it to always crit. Barbs would still be pathetic next to casters for killing trash, but at least they'd be nice to have when facing 3+ orange nameds at a time.


Until then, a 38 DC Wizard (no gear, just hit 20 on first life) just contributes much more to almost every epic than a Barbarian with every item in the game. The only exception is on deathspell immune mobs and bosses, like epic Devil Assault orthons, or the very few mobs with a decent Fort save.

Sure, while where at it let's make haste run speed only, buffs self target only, healing classes can only heal thyself, and clickies require a 50 umd. Also take all buff scrolls and potions out of the game. I boogles the mind that it was ok for casters to have 45 enchanment dcs. So auto attack and auto crit was a chalange?

[mwgarn]

I was playing with a group last night and it made me think of this thread again.. normally I run solo..

A group for a quest in Necro 4 was almost full so I jumped in, it consisted of one cleric (maybe a fvs I don't recall) the rest various melee types, a monk a barbarian ext...

We ran ghost of perdition, I figured a lot of undead trash so I'll be firewalling everything, but... melee obviously need to be nerfed, these multi TR melee where killing everything - even incorporeal - so fast that I was reduced to using direct damage spells like fireball and to keeping the party hasted/raged, they left little to no time for mobs to roast in my firewalls..

So again after last nights expedition it seams that melee's are OP and should be nerfed so that I can have more of a chance to insta kill and burn stuff in my firewalls.

[Truga]

Every single raid relied on and still relies on a Hjealer much more than it relies on an Arcane caster. Does that mean that Clerics and FvS (and some Bards) are more far more powerful than any melee or Arcane casting character?

I think mass heals are in for a massive nerf. They make this game way too easy.

Edit: I wonder what the "game is too easy" camp would think about this.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Really? Another thread like this?

Point of Fact- Doing Epic content on any character takes preparation, either gearing, past lives whatever.

There is a farm/grind to get Epic DCs on a caster or Epic Melee DPS or whatever.

Or...

Skip Epic content...

Because...

If you don't want to take the time to get geared to do EPIC (Harder, more challenging than average content)

And you are bored/discouraged because you don't feel UBER next to the 45 DC PM.

Then why are you worried about EPIC at all.


EPIC is not! "Ooh I just capped, off to do EPIC now because I am level and Epic mode is for level 20"

There are "young" level 20s and "venerable" level 20s.

Like any MMO with an endgame....

Just cause you are level capped DOES NOT necessarily mean you are ready for Epic content.

There seems to be a sense of "Entitlement" in this game and a lot of life where people feel they "Deserve" the same as others have without a concept of the WORK it takes to get there.

They want everything to be fair and fun for everyone. This game, like ALL of life is not fun and fair for eveyone.

Work with what you have, work for what you want and want for nothing.

[Scraap]

Ok, in all seriousness, what about simply removing the ability for quicken (read here: no concentration failure) to apply?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell

Quicken Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit

Casting a quickened spell is an swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special

This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

The level 6 and up spells were designed with that barrier in mind when written, after all, so it'd actually bring the game closer to it's roots.

[grodon9999]

I think mass heals are in for a massive nerf. They make this game way too easy.

Edit: I wonder what the "game is too easy" camp would think about this.

Healing is FAR too easy in DDO, it's why 95% of the players don't bother with defense.

[grodon9999]

Ok, in all seriousness, what about simply removing the ability for quicken (read here: no concentration failure) to apply?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell


The level 6 and up spells were designed with that barrier in mind when written, after all, so it'd actually bring the game closer to it's roots.

Wow . . . that's hardcore. never thought of it but that's EVIL. No more EDQ ball-method!

That definitely would make the game harder.

[gloopygloop]

The level 6 and up spells were designed with that barrier in mind when written, after all, so it'd actually bring the game closer to it's roots.

All spells in 3.0 and 3.5 were written with the metamagics not applying to high level spells. No Empower for level 9 spells. No Maximise for level 8 and 9 spells. Level 7 spells can't have Empower + Maximise on at the same time.

If you have Empower + Maximise + Quicken on, then you'd only be able to cast level 1 and level 2 spells.

[Scraap]

All spells in 3.0 and 3.5 were written with the metamagics not applying to high level spells. No Empower for level 9 spells. No Maximise for level 8 and 9 spells. Level 7 spells can't have Empower + Maximise on at the same time.

If you have Empower + Maximise + Quicken on, then you'd only be able to cast level 1 and level 2 spells.

I actually fully agree with that as well, and have stated as such way back http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...3&postcount=44. Of course, by the same token, that would over-inflate the utility of maximize for level 5 and below spells due to that rules departure.