Nerf PMs and Implosion or just make mobs save better against that

[LeLoric]

Gear does not make as much difference as you think it does. I started my drow wizard with only 19 intelligence because I wanted to use the other 4 build points to shore up his weaknesses. Let's see what DC I can get him with very minimal gear investment:

1) Base - 10 DC
2) Attribute - 4.5 DC
3) Necromancy feats - 2 DC
4) Level ups - 2.5 DC
5) Heighten - 9 DC
6) Wizard Intelligence III - 1.5 DC
7) Capstone - 1 DC
8) Archmage Spell Mastery II - 2 DC
9) Intelligence item - 3 DC
10) Greater necromancy bracers - 2 DC
11) +3 tome - 20 Shroud runs - 1.5 DC
12) +3 exc. int - see #11 - 1.5 DC
13) Minor intelligence shrine - 0.5 DC

Total: DC = 41

Now add in that I can take Necromancy IV for a 10sp enervation spell-like ability, and my effective DC against high fort enemies is 43-49, with 46 being the average.

All for the low cost of 20 Shroud runs.

Theres a lot more to being exceptionally geared than just dc. My palemaster runs with epic torc, epic demon consort bracers, epic lion headed belt buckle, and epic staff of arcane power. That's 4 sands raid scrolls which are the hardest to get in the game. Throw in Con opp and 45 hp enervation guard items. Litany of the dead, Epic diabolists robe, staff of the petitioner, assorted other situational epic items. This is the stuff that allows me to avoid deaths lower saves further on tougher mobs and maintain sp efficiency.

Enervation is really bad for aoe instakill spells which is what the main complaint is. you can only just get one before you wail if you try and get multiples their fast regen of neg levels has them back up to full. So you have a 41 dc wail which is not that op it's the people who run around with full 45+ dc lots of sp and regen items and impassable defenses taht are the ones really trivializing the content.

I can have multiple mobs beating on me to no worry to myself all the while they are getting enervated cursed and shaken at high rates and filling up my sp bar. Your 46 average dc finger requires two casts and 10 more sp then mine and I am churning out much higher wails/cod's and rarely having to single target finger.

Nerfing dc's isn't the solution here. I will still be able to handle things and your 41 dc wizard will become much less effective.

[LeLoric]

This is true, on the average most people don't consume SP pots left and right. They don't have infinite SP either and they are the ones best effected by U9, now the SP they use is better spent.

However, PGers, especially the ones who do epics all day every day and that's it outside of a few choice raids...they do quaff em like your local rugby team knocking back a keg. It's efficient, it's the best way to get the job done in the least amount of time, and it lets them nuke away to their hearts content without every worrying about it. I've run with quite a few of those doing Epics, and been told how gimped I make myself by NOT doing the same, not to mention how I'm slowing them down because I need to shrine. And recently, past 2 weeks or so I guess, I'm seeing that in LOW LEVELS as well, from WW to GH. Blew my mind to see a 5th level Sorc knocking back SP pots in WW on normal. Amazed me when I saw it being done by a Wiz in STK and Delera's...by GH, I was expecting it from all those Arcanes with the earplugs. That is, sadly, something that's becoming less rare and more common, especially with the TRs.

I am pretty sure I fit that mold you give and rarely if ever drink mana pots nor does anyone I run with. Theres just ne reason to when you run at extreme skill and gear levels. Teh people who tend to drink them are the players who try to do the things the more geared/experienced players are doing without the capabilities.

[Raithe]

Enervation is really bad for aoe instakill spells which is what the main complaint is. you can only just get one before you wail if you try and get multiples their fast regen of neg levels has them back up to full.

I only need to get one on the high fort enemy. The rest have lesser fort saves. Even epic mobs have variation in their stats, and because I'm a wizard I have both Crushing Despair (20 sp) and Bestow Curse (10 sp) in my arsenal. Note that bestow curse is a necromancy spell, so will have a higher DC that immediately grants -4 to saves. Not to mention my mass hold monster is nothing to scoff at, either, so I probably have plenty of time to debuff as much as I want. Your 46 DC, if its worth using in epic content, probably affects not much more than 25% more mobs than a 41 DC. Considering some of those mobs will have lower fort saves, its even less than that.

Now imagine there are 6 of us new wizards (with experienced players) running rampant through content.

So you have a 41 dc wail which is not that op it's the people who run around with full 45+ dc lots of sp and regen items and impassable defenses taht are the ones really trivializing the content.

Glad you admitted it. You'll notice I didn't include a bard's song (+1 DC) or any past lives. As for defenses, I'm not worried. When everything is dead before I get there, it will hardly matter what they might have done if they weren't...

[Noelemahc]

Developers in case you were not aware it is tough to get a 45+ dc on your instakills unless you are a palemaster or have wizard/sorcerer past lives on your favored soul or cleric. I guess I am a little selfish in asking this from the standpoint of the vast majority of players have not even heard of past lives or have the capacity to get a +45 dc on their pale master/fvs/cleric, but for those of us that run in those groups it sucks runnning with people that can get a +45 dc on instakills. I would recommend that you figure out a method for allowing pale masters to have their fun but allowing the rest of us to also have our fun. The signal that you are sending is leave the game or roll up a palemaster or have multiple sorc past lives for your FVS or cleric. Honestly I am not joking. This is not a very good signal to send for the end game, because most people will just leave.

So because casters can now do more than Haste and Mass Hold for you to have your infinite fun while they get to do nothing you want it changed? I find it amusing people are whining now that arcanes finally get to do more than pamper melees.

You guys were selfish long enough to where we had to deal with just casting 2 spells and watching you have all the fun. Now you get to sick back and watch us have the fun. I'd say I feel bad about it, but I don't. Enjoy.

FYI even a 45 DC doesn't land every time. You still get saves frequently even with using Symbol of Death. This just boils down to people getting upset because an arcane's sole purpose is no longer babysitting melee.

[KristovK]

I am pretty sure I fit that mold you give and rarely if ever drink mana pots nor does anyone I run with. Theres just ne reason to when you run at extreme skill and gear levels. Teh people who tend to drink them are the players who try to do the things the more geared/experienced players are doing without the capabilities.

They whys don't matter, the fact remains that it's happening, and it's becoming less rare and more commonplace. It's probably a lot of TRs who can't equip those ConOpp items yet who are doing it, I don't know, I don't ask, I just shake my head and keep on going on. I've got a guildy who does this, I know exactly why too because I asked..'I never run out of SP now, I never have to use a shrine unless I want to, and this is my only hobby so why not spend my money on it?'. Never did that BEFORE SP pots could be bought from the TP Store either, only started it after finding that out and loving it every since..and I'm sure Turbine is in love with that guildy of mine, not only ViP(5+ years ingame, same as me) but also spending a fair bit of cash each month on TP

Remove ALL the SP replenishers we have ingame right now and never add another one, see how it changes the power balance with Casters. But..how will you convice all those people with ConOpp items to let them go? Or the other items that replenish SP? I figure the hue and cry over the very suggestion of such a thing would enough to warrant mass bans and possibly a shooting squad for the suggester of such a horrible and blasphemous thought.

[Rawel_San]

<snip>
11) +3 tome - 20 Shroud runs - 1.5 DC
12) +3 exc. int - see #11 - 1.5 DC
<snip>

Oooh I wants to run in your shrouds, canz I ,canz I? They must be much much better then mine, sause I sure as
he** didn't get a +3 int tome on my first 20th or the large ingredients for a T3 weapon.

Please stop making these nonsense claims even if it does make your posts shorter. I'm not claiming that
it's hard to get high DC's, it's not super hard to get to 44-45 even, but posting stuff like that is improbable
or extremely misleading doesn't help anyone.

[Raithe]

Oooh I wants to run in your shrouds, canz I ,canz I? They must be much much better then mine, sause I sure as
he** didn't get a +3 int tome on my first 20th or the large ingredients for a T3 weapon.

Please stop making these nonsense claims even if it does make your posts shorter. I'm not claiming that
it's hard to get high DC's, it's not super hard to get to 44-45 even, but posting stuff like that is improbable
or extremely misleading doesn't help anyone.

I was talking about MY drow wizard, who is currently low level. I don't currently have a killing machine, and probably won't bother building one for some time to come, but if I CHOSE TO, I could get him the greater necromancy bracers and the +3 int item as soon as he pulls the shards.

As for not getting +3 tomes on your 20th Shroud, that is all you get. You get +2 and +3 tomes. I have gotten what I've wanted on every 20th Shroud I've ever hit on 5 different characters. It's hardly a stretch. If I have to go with a +2 tome (which this drow already has in inventory) and a lesser intelligence shrine, it hardly makes a difference in gameplay.

[Rawel_San]

I was talking about MY drow wizard, who is currently low level. I don't currently have a killing machine, and probably won't bother building one for some time to come, but if I CHOSE TO, I could get him the greater necromancy bracers and the +3 int item as soon as he pulls the shards.

As for not getting +3 tomes on your 20th Shroud, that is all you get. You get +2 and +3 tomes. I have gotten what I've wanted on every 20th Shroud I've ever hit on 5 different characters. It's hardly a stretch. If I have to go with a +2 tome (which this drow already has in inventory) and a lesser intelligence shrine, it hardly makes a difference in gameplay.

It is not all you get. You get +2 tomes. Ask around to hear how many people have gone 60 shrouds with 1 +3
tome and that turned out to be wisdom on a wizard. At the same time on your first 20th shroud you pretty much
need to take the essence on any casting class so you can get your sp conc opp and your hp item slotted.

[Ninety0ne]

things change and i dotn like them bwahaha, if the game changes bother you stop playing, these whining posts are just tedious and stupid. Enjoy the evolution or become a dinosaur

[voodoogroves]

I was talking about MY drow wizard, who is currently low level. I don't currently have a killing machine, and probably won't bother building one for some time to come, but if I CHOSE TO, I could get him the greater necromancy bracers and the +3 int item as soon as he pulls the shards.

I've hit about the same number of 20s across my characters. I've generally taken the cleansing item as I've never had a +3 drop in a truly useful stat for that character.

I'm also not sitting on the same amount of large mats that you are. That's something you may find easy but I daresay when I (or likely the average player) is working to equip a few toons which one gets the next T3 is a very real consideration.

[LeLoric]

I only need to get one on the high fort enemy. The rest have lesser fort saves. Even epic mobs have variation in their stats, and because I'm a wizard I have both Crushing Despair (20 sp) and Bestow Curse (10 sp) in my arsenal. Note that bestow curse is a necromancy spell, so will have a higher DC that immediately grants -4 to saves. Not to mention my mass hold monster is nothing to scoff at, either, so I probably have plenty of time to debuff as much as I want. Your 46 DC, if its worth using in epic content, probably affects not much more than 25% more mobs than a 41 DC. Considering some of those mobs will have lower fort saves, its even less than that.

Now imagine there are 6 of us new wizards (with experienced players) running rampant through content.



Glad you admitted it. You'll notice I didn't include a bard's song (+1 DC) or any past lives. As for defenses, I'm not worried. When everything is dead before I get there, it will hardly matter what they might have done if they weren't...

I was talking about MY drow wizard, who is currently low level. I don't currently have a killing machine, and probably won't bother building one for some time to come, but if I CHOSE TO, I could get him the greater necromancy bracers and the +3 int item as soon as he pulls the shards.

As for not getting +3 tomes on your 20th Shroud, that is all you get. You get +2 and +3 tomes. I have gotten what I've wanted on every 20th Shroud I've ever hit on 5 different characters. It's hardly a stretch. If I have to go with a +2 tome (which this drow already has in inventory) and a lesser intelligence shrine, it hardly makes a difference in gameplay.

I am really confused here furst you have a character with 41 dc that can mow through epics and then hes a low level and is not a killing machine. Don't go telling me your build is uber when you haven't even stepped into epics with it. Once again theres more to gearing up then just a 41 dc.

[Rosze]

Sure you can make a wiz with a high dc and its not that hard. If you do the optimal build and max your int. But not everyone wants to do their builds with a cookie cuter where you have to fill this mold and you cant play around with the idea even for a bit. Its not the point that every toon has to be perfect. There are lot of flavor builds that are good but not always the optimal for that.
Just forget trying to nerf everyone but you. Just let casters have their fun.
Same goes for all cleric and favored souls they aren't there to only sit back and watch your backs and let you have the fun. There has been enough nerfs that mostly just brake the game more than improve it. Just does more nerf rely improve the game ? Is it rely needed ?

[Ninety0ne]

This is not a very good signal to send for the end game, because most people will just leave.

Srsly how many times does this ridiculous DOOM **** get posted and how often by someone still here to doom post the next change.

[Raithe]

I am really confused here furst you have a character with 41 dc that can mow through epics and then hes a low level and is not a killing machine. Don't go telling me your build is uber when you haven't even stepped into epics with it. Once again theres more to gearing up then just a 41 dc.

Huh? Read the post again, I said lets see what DC we can get my drow wizard with minimal gear investment. It's obviously talking about what I could do in the future. If you think that there aren't a ton of other players who are just like me status-wise, you'd be wrong. The only difference is those other players are already in the works of advancing their new drow or warforged wizard with the exploitation of content firmly in mind. The gears have been set in motion, and Update 9 has been out long enough that this is just the tip of the iceberg for caster nerfing threads. There will be more.

As for not knowing what works and doesn't work in epics, I've done plenty of experimentation. I know that instakill works much better and much cheaper than DPS even on a savant. I don't need to experience it further on a newly built wizard with a 41 DC plus enervate.

[LeLoric]

Huh? Read the post again, I said lets see what DC we can get my drow wizard with minimal gear investment. It's obviously talking about what I could do in the future. If you think that there aren't a ton of other players who are just like me status-wise, you'd be wrong. The only difference is those other players are already in the works of advancing their new drow or warforged wizard with the exploitation of content firmly in mind. The gears have been set in motion, and Update 9 has been out long enough that this is just the tip of the iceberg for caster nerfing threads. There will be more.

As for not knowing what works and doesn't work in epics, I've done plenty of experimentation. I know that instakill works much better and much cheaper than DPS even on a savant. I don't need to experience it further on a newly built wizard with a 41 DC plus enervate.

Fact is you point out this build and say how it can mow through epics but haven't tested it. Saying you can equal 46 dc because of cheap enervates but they arent that cheap to get those you have to give away a pretty large sum of max spell points. And then you add twice the casting time, 10 more sp, and only have really effective single target instakills for many mobs (yes you can get the low save stuff with 41).

Im not saying its not possible to build a really powerful caster for epics but it requires more than what you said and a lot of hard work goes into gearing one that can really make a joke of epics without requiring the use of large amounts of spell pots.

[grodon9999]

I stat dmg epic mobs all the time, blind them, stun them, earthgrab them, trip them. All of these lower one save or another. Stat dmg is not the most effective but it does work. Someone really serious about it could make a couple enervate weapons and wear fearsome armor in heavy caster groups. Barbs could use intimidate with their enhancement to lower saves. I'd love a melee tactical feat that could lower fort saves maybe tack this on to sunder or something. Truth is if in a heavy caster group theres always something you can contribute to if you look for it.

My ranger with a 1 lev wiz splash will often throw out a hypno or a cause fear to lower saves on a tough mob if theres a caster around. Terror arrows for an AA are also helpful here to give stat debuffs.

I do think there could be a little bit of a relax on the stat dmg resistance but theres still ways to help out.

I'm fully aware that when I'm in an a typical epic quest my job is it stall the mobs while the insta-kills are on timer and beat on red/orange names. Melees are slightly more valuable than the dialog in a porn film.

What we have now is better than pre-U9 but we need some more changes. I think a 50% resistance to stat-damage would be much better than what we have now. I mean seriously, what buff gives that?

[nayozz]

so i have a lvl 18 dwarf palemaster rogue...

32dc necro


i dont want to make it drow for the 20 int (+1 dc)
i dont want to make it pure mage cause i like a 18 2 rogue split
i dont want to hunt for tomes since if you tr you lose them so i can live without a +2, lets figures a +4
i dont want to craft a +3 stat shroud item since it goes only on weapon, and i do not like to hunt for +3 tod rings
i dont want to hunt for a +7 epic item, and i dont want to hunt and lose my trinket slot for lithany

so... wait just cause you force yourself into creating and playing one type of character only, you want to nerf everyone else ? like if my 32 dc necro as a palemaster wasn't enough !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

dude if your way of thinking was in real life... we would all be like 6 feet tall or more, muscular, slim, blonde hairs and cerulean eyes...

well... lucky me it isn't so... and btw i like very much to play a dwarf mage, and god save me ! a NOT pure wizard !
still want to nerf me, and force people to build toons in the only feasible way possible, like everyone has a 45dc to just enjoy a game ?

well just delete your 45ddc toon, and go play a korean mmo game ^^
btw PLZ CAN I HAZ YOR STUFF ?

[Tirisha]

Hello all,

I've ran quite a few epics before and after U9, and wanted to share my experience as it relates to this discussion. For context, the majority of my epic questing is done with guild members and friends, not because we dislike pick up groups, but to ensure that useful scrolls stay 'within the family'.

Pre U9 our typical group would consist of at least one caster, usually an AM specced for crowd control, at least one healer, usually one capable of melee, and the remaining slots were typically melee characters, usually a monk was desired to assist the caster with crowd controlling loose enemies. The caster would dance, hold, web, hypnotize the enemies, cast a few buffs, and occasionally swing a Dreamsplitter. If we had a lower DC caster doing the crowd control, that caster would typically need to keep up displacement on the party to make up for the lower DC during difficult encounters. The melee would beat down trash and bosses, the healer would do the same, while healing through the damage of loose trash and bosses. The caster's ability to CC made him or her the most important player, since epic mobs deal so much damage and have so much health, a healer could not reasonably heal a group through a direct confrontation.

Post U9 our typical group make up has been altered dramatically. Every AM in the guild has turned PM, and all caster parties have become the standard for all of our epic questing. The only time we revert back to a Pre U9 party makeup, is in the event we plan to run the same epic quest multiple times.

Death spells, especially the AOE ones, have allowed casters to fulfill the role that our melee characters once filled in killing epic trash. The first step is the same of course, round up your enemies into a disco ball, maybe drop a mind fog or web as well if your DC is lower. But rather than have a group of melee beat those enemies, simply drop a circle of death, then a wail, then a finger, if there's anything left, drag it to the next disco ball.

Damage over time spells also allow casters to fulfill the role that our melee characters once filled in killing epic bosses. Casters now have a number of advantages over melee when it comes to killing epic bosses. A totally under geared caster can put out similar damage as a melee by simply stacking his or her DOT spells. Melees need to have a variety of gear and buffs in order to hit some of the extremely high armor classes found on epic enemies, while casters need only target the boss and press a button in order to do very similar damage. Further, casters often do not need a healer to watch their health like a melee would because they do not have to stand toe to toe with their enemy in order to deal damage.

U9 has drastically changed the face of epics for me and my typical group. An easy epic like Big Top was once considered fast if it was less than 10 minutes, now (in a caster heavy group) a fast run is 5 minutes or less. A difficult epic like Into the Deep once required a full and balanced party to complete without drinking a bunch of pots, now it can be completed by two casters without using any pots in a similar time frame. Similarly in epic Devil Assault it was almost mandatory to build a full and balanced group to complete without pot using any pots, now it can be completed entirely by casters, not even a full group of them mind you, without difficulty or pots.

Above is just a brief summary of my experience in epics pre and post U9, whether or not DOT and death spells should be changed remains up for debate. Personally, I very much miss epics pre U9. Every class had an important role to play and our group would stick together and use far more teamwork to complete the quest. Instead of assigning roles for a big fight, (you kite, you tank, you heal, the rest of you melee on the boss's backside) it's pretty much everyone for himself (you DOT, you DOT, you DOT, run around, don't get hit, heal yourself).

One could say to me, if you like pre U9 tactics so much, why not just use them? They still work! And it's true, Pre U9 tactics do work, and as I mentioned we employ them when running the same epic quest multiple times since, well, we don't all have multiple capped casters. Frankly however, I find it irrational and crazy to purposely make a quest longer and more difficult for the same reward, it's the same reason very few groups run epic VON6 without a bard, sure you could do it, but why make it harder on the group? I'd much rather the game designers make quests that require a balanced party, in which every class has some important role to fulfill. Don't get me wrong, I am having fun blitzing all the epic content in record setting times in all caster parties, but I really, really miss having some logical reason to bring my melee characters into epics.

I can relate to this ^

[AtomicMew]

so i have a lvl 18 dwarf palemaster rogue...

32dc necro


i dont want to make it drow for the 20 int (+1 dc)
i dont want to make it pure mage cause i like a 18 2 rogue split
i dont want to hunt for tomes since if you tr you lose them so i can live without a +2, lets figures a +4
i dont want to craft a +3 stat shroud item since it goes only on weapon, and i do not like to hunt for +3 tod rings
i dont want to hunt for a +7 epic item, and i dont want to hunt and lose my trinket slot for lithany

so... wait just cause you force yourself into creating and playing one type of character only, you want to nerf everyone else ? like if my 32 dc necro as a palemaster wasn't enough !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

dude if your way of thinking was in real life... we would all be like 6 feet tall or more, muscular, slim, blonde hairs and cerulean eyes...

well... lucky me it isn't so... and btw i like very much to play a dwarf mage, and god save me ! a NOT pure wizard !
still want to nerf me, and force people to build toons in the only feasible way possible, like everyone has a 45dc to just enjoy a game ?

well just delete your 45ddc toon, and go play a korean mmo game ^^
btw PLZ CAN I HAZ YOR STUFF ?

I really am not sure I understand what you're saying.

It seems like you're saying that, because you play a sub-par character, you want everything to be balanced around your level of play. That seems quite selfish to me. Why should other people suffer boring game play just because of you and how you play?

[nayozz]

I really am not sure I understand what you're saying.

It seems like you're saying that, because you play a sub-par character, you want everything to be balanced around your level of play. That seems quite selfish to me. Why should other people suffer boring game play just because of you and how you play?

well you dont get the point...

because some people spend a big lump of time creating an overpowered 45dc toon, they want everything balanced around a 45dc + elusive uber-rare gear. That seems quite selfish to me. Why should other people suffer impossible game play just because of min-maxers and how they play ?