So can a dev tell me why to play a savant now?

[sigtrent]

DDO is a collaborative effort -

That is very much a misconception. DDO is a commercial product. Yes the fans have input but only in the same way movie critics have input. We do not actively collaborate.

[Angelus_dead]

Yes the fans have input but only in the same way movie critics have input. We do not actively collaborate.

That's incorrect too. Although game design is usually far from ordering at a deli, the developers here are over 1000 times as responsive to player feedback than a movie director is to critics. Even if the director wanted to shift in accordance to the public response, the lead time of the publishing model doesn't allow that option.

For example, the Awaken Vulnerability feature under discussion here originally came from a suggestion by a player on this forum.

[Matuse]

my sorcerer will be better with not having to blow a feat on something useless.

Which feat would that be?

Maximize?
Empower?
Spell Focus: Evocation/Conjuration?

Which one of those is useless again?

heck, if i don't take the savant, i don't even have to blow all those AP on maxed out crit enhancements that aren't worth it.

There might be an exception here or there, but as far as I've read, EVERY PrE requires the character to invest AP (or genuine garbage feats, like Tempest III) where they ordinarily wouldn't. Radiant Servant wants enhancements spent in the healing skill boost....for a PrE that gives infinite healing via regenerating bursts. Better tell clerics to not bother investing in that garbage! At least when you take those "unwanted" crit enhancements, they are directly improving your damage. Heal skill enhancements are flushed down the drain completely, providing no benefit of any kind.

since the one option casters briefly might have had for dealing with challenging bosses is no longer there.

How many of these bosses even exist? Horoth, Suulo, epic Lailat, and a few high HP (but generally very low threat...see Malicia) epic quest end bosses. So the stacking curse is only useful on perhaps .00001% of all monsters in the game. This is a reason to get all peeved? You're still getting your damage boosted by 15% against them, since you can effectively keep the curse up indefinitely. Woe is you.

To say nothing of the fact that the PrEs all have identical feat requirements. If you want, you could swap enhancements and go to a completely different element every 3 days just to suit your whim. No other class has that kind of PrE flexibility. They need reincarnates to do it...assuming they even HAVE the option of a second PrE.

[Rodasch]

Which feat would that be?

Maximize?
Empower?
Spell Focus: Evocation/Conjuration?

Which one of those is useless again?

The spell focus: evo/conj is the odd man out there. It does have some value, but is not a feat most would take in our all too short list of available feats. The net gains from Evoc/Conj spell focus later in the game is nearly negligible, as it only effects 2-3 of the spells you'd actually use (if even that) in 95% of scenarios.

Spell Focus: Necromancy/Enchantment however are typical choices which actually provide some real benefit at later game.

Heck, I can't even think of a single conjuration or evocation spell I use where 1 more (or even 2 more) to the DC (if it even has one) would make even a measurable impact in 99% of situations.

[Aashrym]

The spell focus: evo/conj is the odd man out there. It does have some value, but is not a feat most would take in our all too short list of available feats. The net gains from Evoc/Conj spell focus later in the game is nearly negligible, as it only effects 2-3 of the spells you'd actually use (if even that) in 95% of scenarios.

Spell Focus: Necromancy/Enchantment however are typical choices which actually provide some real benefit at later game.

Heck, I can't even think of a single conjuration or evocation spell I use where 1 more (or even 2 more) to the DC (if it even has one) would make even a measurable impact in 99% of situations.

Then why would players think the wizard higher DC's have a measurable impact in those situations relating to damage?

Sorcs do more damage than a wizzie flat out using damage spells. Even with a mass hold on the sorc capstone damage bonus is a better deal. Mass hold + 150% is less than 120% + 120%. That's ignoring any caster level bonus the sorc might be getting too.

By the time the bonus from the mass hold catches the wizzie up any 15 sec debuff is gone or the targets are already dead. And if there is a debuff added to land the mass hold better a 3rd damage spell could have been applied for a bigger differential to catch up to.

Add the new SR check required for mass hold now. That does impact the ability to land it in some places. Epic drow particularly. Direct damage spells don't have issues with spell penetration, and the chosen element has bonuses to help with spell penetration.

The complaint that the higher DC's on wizards is an issue is not realistic. CC spells are shorter now and prepping them with debuffs is time consuming, not to mention more expensive. Instant kill spells have longer cool-downs than before and if they turn out to be an issue the cooldown timers are the easiest way to balance them. Both CC and instant death still cost plenty of SP while damage spells had a reduction in SP. It's easily more sustainable than CC or instakilling. That's worth considering when sorcs do have more SP to work with.

While leveling up the bonus casters levels do make a difference and they open up multi-classing options that didn't exist before. There's some room to splash without impacting caster level as much as before U9.

The PRE just doesn't look like junk at all. I think Turbine did over-do cutting back on some of it. If the curse were and AoE that would be better and maybe 20%. Any spells not working correctly should be corrected. But again, I just don't see it as junk.

And if someone says expensive? Well......arcane PRE's seem expensive by default. I pay 50 AP just to to have reasonable inspire courage and meet my pre requirements before even trying to add anything else. Expensive happens. I don't see an huge issue with the feat costs. Even war chanters need to waste a feat on weapon focus.

It's just not that bad losing the curse stacking.

[Rodasch]

Then why would players think the wizard higher DC's have a measurable impact in those situations relating to damage?

Wizard higher DC's doesn't come into play for the damage spells as much as it does for the control spells (where the vast bulk of your save throws matter).

The only evocation spells that even have a save throw use reflex for half, and with the low reflex saves on most monsters (other than evasion type monsters) you're seldom in a situation where 1 or 2 more DC will make a measurable impact on performance. As for conjuration spells, anyone relying heavily on conjuration for damage (acid spells in particular) might surely want the feat to boost their dcs, but the vast majority of sorcerers are not going to be relying that heavily on acid spells, especially not air savants who will cast them at -9 levels, or water savants who have much more effective ways to lay down damage that is in their elemental specialization.

Wizards get a LOT more feats than sorcerers, and already get a boost to ALL DC's by virtue of their +2 to casting/DC stat in their capstone. This effects the spells that really matter and makes having to take a less useful feat to qualify for a PrE much less difficult for them.

I'm not saying they should remove the feat requirements from the savants, but they need to remember the down-sides they built in when they start reducing the benefits, and perhaps consider reducing the costs and penalties commensurate with the reduction in gains.

[altrocks]

The people that like the Sorc PrE's seem to be defending them in a very isolated manner. If NOTHING ELSE in the game was changing, sure, the PrE's as they stand now would still be a major boost to Sorc DPS (though not as good as they first were when Lam came online for U9). The problem is, and it seems most are forgetting this, that the Spell Pass, Spell Enhancement Lines and Epic Minion changes are also going into effect AT THE SAME TIME!

It's not so much that the sorc PrE is horrible by itself, it's that all of these other changes make it horrible in combination. As others have stated in the thread, my sorc is perfectly fine as it is. Maybe I can't do CC in epic sands or Chrono, but my damage and CC are just fine for all other epics, as well as ToD and every other high level raid/quest. After the changes? It's debatable, but I don't see my sorc being improved by the changes, and I don't see the new sorc PrE lines making up for those changes at all. I've posted these things in a Spell pass thread as well, but they're just as relevant here.

-----

1) Replacing enhancement lines and not even leaving the old ones in place for those that already have them will effect ALL casters. It's going to be much more expensive just to stay at where your sorc/wiz is at already, enhancement-wise.

2) Spell changes will have an effect on ALL casters, regardless of whether they take a PrE or not. The spell costs, duration/extend and damage changes will effect every caster, not just those with the PrE's. The added saving throw chances on a bunch of spells, the changing of how damage is applied upon entering cloud/AOE effects and the lack of Extend on all of the damaging spells will change how the game works for arcane DPS in major ways. Testing on Lamannia is mostly showing a small subset of people doing things in ridiculous ways with overpowered toons who got a bunch of free respecs for AP/spells and could afford to gimp themselves in ways they NEVER WOULD on Live, just to test out max-DPS scenarios. But we get changes based on it anyway, which is further reducing the usefulness of many damaging spells. The first U9 build had Acid Rain as a good alternative/addition to Firewall which might actually let people make some choices at spell level 4 and maybe develop different play styles. There was a bunch of spells that had great potential in the same way/ 2 Lam patches later, and we're back to the exact same spell list as Pre-U9, just with much less damage and we still have a higher AP cost (and in some cases SP cost) than before U9. If this alone isn't proof of an overall nerf, I don't know what else you would need.

3) PrE's give no real advantages over other, similar non-PrE choices. I'm not even going in to the cost for the PrE versus the benefits, because the benefits just aren't there. The +CL is wasted on 99.99% of all damage spells and almost as many non-damage spells. The SLA's are a complete joke, especially with the new longer cooldowns on them. I can max out my fire and ice line (more expensive to do now, mind you) and be just as good post-U9 as I was Pre-U9, damage wise (which honestly, wasn't bad to begin with), and much more versatile than any savant will hope to be.

4) Epic changes mean no sorcs in end-game content. A melee DPS build is DPS. A Sorc is backup damage, at best, compared to that. Sorcs have to be able to fill the role of wizards, or they simply won't be taken. Bards can mass CC and buff, Wizards can mass CC and buff, Sorcs can buff and... Single-DPS half as well as a newly capped barb for a limited amount of time at huge cost. Plus, we'll still get yelled at if we can't self-heal in the middle of fighting mobs, which no melee will ever have to deal with.

-------

That's how I see it, anyway. I wasn't really planning on using the curses that much to begin with (except maybe on a few Raid bosses to help with DPS), so it's not even an issue for me. The general hate on casters who aren't Pale Masters does bug me though. The game changes outside of the Sorc class make a Sorc PrE needed even more than it was before. The PrE they're giving us isn't even as good an option as we had before the update AND they're taking away the option to stick with what we had before the update.

The best thing I could do post-U9 with my sorc is either 1) Try to emulate my previous build as closely as possible with the new enhancement lines, or 2) TR into a Wizard and take one of those PrE's to make a useful toon that is actually fun to play.

I don't like either option very much.

[krogyy]

Single-DPS half as well as a newly capped barb for a limited amount of time at huge cost.

yeah, sure...

ridiculous claim is ridiculous

[Majere_Aumar]

Has the OP even logged his sorc onto the test server yet? If you can't see how much of an improvment Savant is over standard sorc, then you really are doing it wrong ... period.

[Missing_Minds]

on what the thought prossess is that will get people to play savants?

You dont run into a barb and go are you a frenzied berzerker

1. easy answer. "You make the choice to play one. The choice is yours." They are not going to force you one way or the other. They are just providing a few more toys if you choose to want to play with them. It is an enhancement, not a class. If you wish to enhance a particular elemental damage, you have the ability to do so now.

2. Nope, still not an FB. And look at the change to helplessness. Emm...

[Kinerd]

That is very much a misconception. DDO is a commercial product. Yes the fans have input but only in the same way movie critics have input. We do not actively collaborate.

This analogy only works if the movie critics were also the actors in the movies they were criticizing, and were also volunteer actors.

The point is, movies can exist without movie critics. Games can't really exist without players, they're just programming exercises otherwise.

[Trillea]

The PRE just doesn't look like junk at all. I think Turbine did over-do cutting back on some of it. If the curse were and AoE that would be better and maybe 20%. Any spells not working correctly should be corrected. But again, I just don't see it as junk.

And if someone says expensive? Well......arcane PRE's seem expensive by default. I pay 50 AP just to to have reasonable inspire courage and meet my pre requirements before even trying to add anything else. Expensive happens. I don't see an huge issue with the feat costs. Even war chanters need to waste a feat on weapon focus.

It's just not that bad losing the curse stacking.

As it stands, it is junk.

In another thread, calculations were done that put a complete mana dump for an ice sorc (BEST single target DPS) in 1 minute with eardweller going at under 1k dps. This is unacceptable, because this means that sustainable DPS is *significantly* lower than this. As this PrE is the *DAMAGE BASED* PrE, the damage output should be MUCH higher than this.

Fix it, devs! Give us back our curses

[Angelus_dead]

In another thread, calculations were done that put a complete mana dump for an ice sorc (BEST single target DPS) in 1 minute with eardweller going at under 1k dps. This is unacceptable, because this means that sustainable DPS is *significantly* lower than this. As this PrE is the *DAMAGE BASED* PrE, the damage output should be MUCH higher than this.

Do you have a justification for the idea that the highest-damaging of the Sorcerer specialties should do over 60,000 damage in 60 seconds?

How much damage do you think an Assassin or Frenzied Berserker can do in 60 seconds?

[Trillea]

Do you have a justification for the idea that the highest-damaging of the Sorcerer specialties should do over 60,000 damage in 60 seconds?

How much damage do you think an Assassin or Frenzied Berserker can do in 60 seconds?

I have no less justification that sorcs should do over 60,000 damage in 60 seconds than anyone else may have that any melee does that their favored PrE is not doing enough damage - except this. My damage is finite. Melee is not, as long as they are getting heals. If I choose to blow it all at once, I should be able to, and woe to the one I choose as my target. Since I have the possibility of running out of SP, I should be able to maximize what that SP does in a short amount of time, or alternatively spread the damage over a whole dungeon. There are times for both, but we as casters are severely lacking in the quick-nuke. In fact, I would LOVE it if as a caster I had the option of blowing EVERY SPELL POINT I HAVE in a single spell, if the damage scaled per spell point spent. Although an option like this would probably only be available to a warlock.

[Angelus_dead]

I have no less justification that sorcs should do over 60,000 damage in 60 seconds than anyone else may have that any melee does that their favored PrE is not doing enough damage - except this. My damage is finite. Melee is not, as long as they are getting heals.

That can support why a damage-oriented Sorcerer specialty should do high damage in 60 seconds, but why 60,000 high?

[Trillea]

That can support why a damage-oriented Sorcerer specialty should do high damage in 60 seconds, but why 60,000 high?

Because it is not as much above what melee damage can put out as it should be. Say a very well-geared melee can put out a consistent 550 DPS (feasible). This, over 60 seconds is 33,000 damage. A comparably-geared ice sorc in that same 60 seconds, blowing mana like there is no tomorrow, is not getting even twice that. A spellcaster that chooses to spend all their mana on 1 target should be able to do at LEAST 3x the damage to that one target as a melee, since they are not able to keep it up.

[Heleen]

Ok since we're giving up half an element for a small buff and a few *free* long cooldown and most of them are pretty crappy spells.... can i get an official response on what the thought prossess is that will get people to play savants?

Pre's are supposed to make your characters better, not worse. When compared to any other pre, the downsides arent even close. Some pres have a few downsides, but usually not much, and none of them have downsides that make them hamstring a class to the point where the players have to look at it and go, hmm is it even worth it.

You dont run into a barb and go are you a frenzied berzerker, you dont run into a fighter and say do you have a pre, you dont run into a wiz any more and wonder if they're using one of the 2 pres. With sorcs, it'll be pretty obvious what pre they are, and im gonna go out on a limb here and guess that half the sorcs running around wont have one.

So I'm asking for a direct answer, no mumbo jumbo, no double speak... just a direct answer on why the pre is useful, and how they think it stacks against any other pre. I dont believe this is to much to ask for someone whose been playing on and off as long as I have, and who now is sorely tempted to delete every character I have so that I have no temptation to ever return to this game.

Hmm... good point.

Fire Savant is good to use Firewalls. But when you are in a Quest like Enter the Kobold?
Ice Savant isn't good, you will lost Firewall damage and lots of good fire spells.
Air Savant... careful, they fly! D:
Earth Savant is useless.

This is the Sorcerer, while Rangers do 500 damage, Fighters get 8 Str and etc.

[domecek1]

The people that like the Sorc PrE's seem to be defending them in a very isolated manner. If NOTHING ELSE in the game was changing, sure, the PrE's as they stand now would still be a major boost to Sorc DPS (though not as good as they first were when Lam came online for U9). The problem is, and it seems most are forgetting this, that the Spell Pass, Spell Enhancement Lines and Epic Minion changes are also going into effect AT THE SAME TIME!

It's not so much that the sorc PrE is horrible by itself, it's that all of these other changes make it horrible in combination. As others have stated in the thread, my sorc is perfectly fine as it is. Maybe I can't do CC in epic sands or Chrono, but my damage and CC are just fine for all other epics, as well as ToD and every other high level raid/quest. After the changes? It's debatable, but I don't see my sorc being improved by the changes, and I don't see the new sorc PrE lines making up for those changes at all. I've posted these things in a Spell pass thread as well, but they're just as relevant here.

-----

1) Replacing enhancement lines and not even leaving the old ones in place for those that already have them will effect ALL casters. It's going to be much more expensive just to stay at where your sorc/wiz is at already, enhancement-wise.

2) Spell changes will have an effect on ALL casters, regardless of whether they take a PrE or not. The spell costs, duration/extend and damage changes will effect every caster, not just those with the PrE's. The added saving throw chances on a bunch of spells, the changing of how damage is applied upon entering cloud/AOE effects and the lack of Extend on all of the damaging spells will change how the game works for arcane DPS in major ways. Testing on Lamannia is mostly showing a small subset of people doing things in ridiculous ways with overpowered toons who got a bunch of free respecs for AP/spells and could afford to gimp themselves in ways they NEVER WOULD on Live, just to test out max-DPS scenarios. But we get changes based on it anyway, which is further reducing the usefulness of many damaging spells. The first U9 build had Acid Rain as a good alternative/addition to Firewall which might actually let people make some choices at spell level 4 and maybe develop different play styles. There was a bunch of spells that had great potential in the same way/ 2 Lam patches later, and we're back to the exact same spell list as Pre-U9, just with much less damage and we still have a higher AP cost (and in some cases SP cost) than before U9. If this alone isn't proof of an overall nerf, I don't know what else you would need.

3) PrE's give no real advantages over other, similar non-PrE choices. I'm not even going in to the cost for the PrE versus the benefits, because the benefits just aren't there. The +CL is wasted on 99.99% of all damage spells and almost as many non-damage spells. The SLA's are a complete joke, especially with the new longer cooldowns on them. I can max out my fire and ice line (more expensive to do now, mind you) and be just as good post-U9 as I was Pre-U9, damage wise (which honestly, wasn't bad to begin with), and much more versatile than any savant will hope to be.

4) Epic changes mean no sorcs in end-game content. A melee DPS build is DPS. A Sorc is backup damage, at best, compared to that. Sorcs have to be able to fill the role of wizards, or they simply won't be taken. Bards can mass CC and buff, Wizards can mass CC and buff, Sorcs can buff and... Single-DPS half as well as a newly capped barb for a limited amount of time at huge cost. Plus, we'll still get yelled at if we can't self-heal in the middle of fighting mobs, which no melee will ever have to deal with.

-------

That's how I see it, anyway. I wasn't really planning on using the curses that much to begin with (except maybe on a few Raid bosses to help with DPS), so it's not even an issue for me. The general hate on casters who aren't Pale Masters does bug me though. The game changes outside of the Sorc class make a Sorc PrE needed even more than it was before. The PrE they're giving us isn't even as good an option as we had before the update AND they're taking away the option to stick with what we had before the update.

The best thing I could do post-U9 with my sorc is either 1) Try to emulate my previous build as closely as possible with the new enhancement lines, or 2) TR into a Wizard and take one of those PrE's to make a useful toon that is actually fun to play.

I don't like either option very much.

So true..

[Aashrym]

As it stands, it is junk.

In another thread, calculations were done that put a complete mana dump for an ice sorc (BEST single target DPS) in 1 minute with eardweller going at under 1k dps. This is unacceptable, because this means that sustainable DPS is *significantly* lower than this. As this PrE is the *DAMAGE BASED* PrE, the damage output should be MUCH higher than this.

Fix it, devs! Give us back our curses

I don't think it's junk while leveling or providing a better splash option because of the caster level boost. I do think there is room for improvement.

The other thread with the damage calcs was off, but I do see some strong potential with damage and it is ranged damage. The risk factor is lower than melee range kiting spell damage. Not bad for the damage either.

I still think mages should have more damage than melees and look at it as protector/glass cannon roles but several players do have a valid point that right now mages are not really at risk needing the tanks much of the time.

It's also cheap SP cost damage compared to CC or instakill and bypasses SR for the most part while some spells still have no save.

Once we get some more elemental spells in we'll be cooking with fire.

The curse is the point of contention for a lot of ppl now. AoE is the way to improve that.

I'm looking forward to updates coming down the road and expect to see improvements in the works.

[wolflordnexus]

Hmm... good point.

Fire Savant is good to use Firewalls. But when you are in a Quest like Enter the Kobold?
Ice Savant isn't good, you will lost Firewall damage and lots of good fire spells.
Air Savant... careful, they fly! D:
Earth Savant is useless.

This is the Sorcerer, while Rangers do 500 damage, Fighters get 8 Str and etc.

I'd have to dissagree here
Fire savant good till you hit about 16 but ya crappy end game

Ice savant is freaking brutal Ice has the best single target Damage spell period in polar ray and it gives up 4 a tick before mods on fire wall, nothing on scorching ray, and nothing on meteor swarm. unless you were spamming DBF your really not losing much to amp up the #1 damage spell.

Air Very little in the game is even resistant to this element But giving up longer Cloud kill and FTS Spell pen is rough but I'm sorry KD immunity and wings are awesome It does blow that the leap is on a longer cooldown but the Oh **** button is still full on win.

Acid is kinda meh in my opinion kinda cool to get the unlimited range earth grab but whatever really.

all that said I'd like to see the cool down on SLA's go back, and possibly up the curse to 20% stacking curse was kinda ridiculous though IMHO. the whole echoes of power SLA nerf is silly SLA's were fine before and if they aren't fine now then fix Echoes or remove it.