So can a dev tell me why to play a savant now?

[PopeJual]

Even before the latest change there was NEVER a reason to be a fire savant.

I could see being a Fire Savant from level 6 up until you hit Vale. Thankfully, you'll have the Argonessen favor at that point to swap out all of your spells and switch elements.

[Venny]

Well I brought over three of my higher level toons to test everything basically, I have now three level 20s on Lamannia One FvS to test the new PrE there and in all honesty I do REALLY like it I cannot see anything wrong with it. But that is for another thread.

Here is my Reason to say YAY a SAVANT PrE Class for me!!!!! The only question it came down to was which one... cause I was going to choose one. Want to know if I read this thread before I did it? NO WAY.... I didn't want read about being whining about how Gimped their toon is now because THEY didn't build it right. I like to see things for myself so that I can Judge for myself and this is what I have found.

My Sorc that I brought over was Leveled on Sunday to Run the Last event, While it was Fun... and Insane... a first time 12 -20 Sorc with Awaiting 16-20 gear was still well... things could have gone better, I went through a couple robes but by the end I made Elite Suulo weak to Electrical Damage and Cast Eladar's Electric Surge on him three times and upon the last time I did over 2k of damage for the last 2 ticks of one of the layers, I would cast it again and make him Weaker against my element once more just to be sure that he was. So maybe one should focus on the latter spell that does stack to do the Damage rather than the weakening.

---------- FEATS-----------

Extend Feat
Never really had it in my list of things to get when I made the Drow Sorc or as I like to call Sorcs 'Glass Cannons' and with all the AoE spells that I have chosen not many things live long after walking into Otto's Sphere, Glitter dust, Incendiary cloud and the firewall I have thrown up in one place. (Non Epic as I am learning how to play a level 20 Air Savant... I'll be honest Jumping 8 levels is not easy and in mid quest I realized that I had not added three spells to my bars because I jumped 8 levels.)

The feats needed for the savant PrE classes make my choice of spells better. I had chosen most of the Evocation spells anyway and with the PrE class it was easier to choose the spells I would be taking. (Ignoring all of the Earth and Acid spells which I had done in the past anyway except for flesh to stone and stone skin... but there are wands of Stone skin and now my blur is fantastic though I did not have it before as one must be choosie about Spells as a Sorc.)

----------- ENHANCEMENTS-----------

Action Point Spending - With EVERY element enhancement costing 1 AP... yes ONE action point I was able to focus on MY element and ignore the one that I was weak in. Yes I Maxed out Storm and the Criticals that went with it. I also Maxed out Fire and Cold and while I am not a Fire Savant nor a Water Savant I am still doing pretty good damage in those areas as well 900-1,900 at times with a Fireball or a Cone of Cold.

----------GEAR or LACK THERE OF------------

Gear - I do have the Fire and Ice robes from the Droaam quests could be why she hits hard outside of the chosen Savant field she is or it could be because I have the level 16 Ornamental Dagger. Not the Epic one. I also have access to the Phoenix Regalia but she isn't in it and Now she has the Insanity Robes (that randomly cast a Superior _____ IX upon you when you cast a spell) from the new quests along with the Scepter but I am not really liking the -10 to her Concentration just to boost the DC on her spells by 1 her dcs on some spells are already 30-49 so that is just me I suppose yes I can boost it to 31-50 but then my concentration is shot by 10... They do say that Gear is EVERYTHING... Well I have no end game gear on her and still she hits pretty **** hard while wearing gear from the Red Fens and the Sorra Kell set.

------------COOL DOWN on SPELLS-------------

Cool down on Spells and Spell like abilities - I do not have a problem with them I can use one of my spell like abilities the follow it with another to kill any that didn't croak from my electric loop where that is concerned if wizards think theirs should be faster or the same as a Sorc they are kidding themselves, that was one of the advantages to playing the Sorc over a Wizard. (Wizards that have a problem with the Sorc's PrE class should really keep their complaints to themselves. Sorcs have always had Less of a 'cool down' ie 'Cast more often and faster' since the Game was on a Table top and everyone met by Garry's house and they have also always had Spell like Abilities. The Sorcs are only now getting to use them.)

------------SPELLS and FEATS----------

If you want to know MY Spell Choices, Stats, Gear and feats in full I'll be happy to tell you in a PM just ask.

-----------RESULT------------

In the end I LIKE the Savant Classes and went with Air mostly because there is an Air Savant belt out of Sins so I know that there is gear in the battlefield/ end game for the PrE class. I suppose not everyone can build the sorc the way I did... but if you can't see the advantages of the PrE Class and call your character Gimp, then no one can really help you maybe you should learn how to build your character where I did. I didn't listen to anyone IN game... I relied on my table top know how to build my character as the game is based in 3.5.


NOTE: With 100 Dragon Blood Pots I believe I will be testing the other Savant Classes and changing all of my spells just to see how well they work. I will post back here with my findings on the other Savant classes. But as of now **AIR SAVANT** has my vote with TWO thumbs WAY WAY UP!!!!!!

[Traver]

Venny, just seeking clarity from your post..


I read: I have never played a 20 sorc before but got leveled on test and thought it was fun.


Is that correct?

[Aashrym]

implying that spells are being changed to make them more efficient.

Reading an implication into the statement doesn't make that implication accurate. However, better mana efficiency on the instant damage spells is part of balancing them with other spells and is obviously there. Assuming the mana efficiency should be at the same levels the old wall of fire is where that reasoning goes astray.

Blasting damage spells is working right now, give it a chance.

[Vanquishedfo]

Glad your not a doom and gloomer, however its always beena flaw showing OP favoritism in DDO to give sorc faster casting and cool downs. Its actually slower and more costly in PnP for sorc to use metamagic feats for example because to use them on the fly takes a full round instead of a partial action, and to prepare one before hand means they are giving up the choice to not cast that spell over another, just as a wizard does. Meanwhile a wizard who used quicken, like most battle caster foccussed prestige classes like war wizard tended to put a spell dmg dealing wizard miles ahead of a sorc who at best was almost always for theme and concept rather then real power. Because all it took was a quest to containt threats a sorc wasnt well spelled for, like a fire foccussed on the plane of fire etc, and the sorc was so impotent they would suicide and re roll.

Since day one of DDO my biggest annoyance was the superior advantage sorc had here, which since they do get to swap out spells, means they dont even have thier biggest PnP limit, while gaining many many more DDO upgrades then wizards.

Sorc never ever where meant to be better wielders of magic in any way, just a way for those who are to anti social and mentally impaired to persue magic without having to rp a cunning or intellectual character.

[Rizzyn]

There's only so many ways to translate those Pen and Paper mechanics, and the idea of a Spell Point pool sort of evens that playing field. I'd say that the core advantages are as follows.

Sorcerers: Less Spell Choices, Cast more Often
Wizards: More Spells, Less Often

In table top the Sorcerer had X spells per day, per level, and could cast any of the spells in his repertoire as often as he liked up to the max number of spells per day. If a Wizard wanted to cast Fireball twice, he had to have it studied twice, without gadgets or gizmos of course. This has largely carried over into DDO; however, I have to disagree that the ability to go to a trainer and cash out for a spell swap eliminates that disadvantage. A wizard can rest at any Shrine and change every spell he has prepared in DDO if he wants to. He can go in, get a feel that maybe Fireball and Firewall aren't the spells for the Land of Fire, and change it all to cold and neg energy or something. Wizards are supposed to be more versatile, to my way of thinking. Sorcerers, by necessity, have to be a little more focused on spell selection, because they can't rest at a Shrine and change up. As for PnP Sorcs had access to other feats to make them as viable, as well as Prestige Classes, like one of the Elementalist ones from Forgotten Realms, but that is beside the point, as we could likely talk all day about the old days. A Fire Savant in Fire Land had better have some other Elements, like Force, ready in his back pocket, or yeah, he's dooooomed, but that just means the right tool for the right job, which I think everyone is aware enough to manage.

I've seen capped Sorcs, capped Wizards, and TRs of both, I've seen both do rather amazing things, and I just don't believe a couple of seconds either way is going to ruin their game. Nor do I really think Sorcerers have the superior advantage, and I can speak objectively there I think, having seen both, and not really married to either, proverbially speaking. Pale Masters seem to compete just fine, as do the Archmages. We ran Crystal Cove level 25 with both kinds at different times, and while there's nothing special about those mobs, some of the numbers for damage thrown up were fairly high. I worked with our Warforged Wizard on crowd control, using a combo of blade barrier and an X-firewall at the center of it, and we managed aggro while others ran those damnable torches. I've also done the same with Sorcerers. Sorcerers, until now, had no Prestige Classes, and no additional nifty clickies like Undead Shrouds or very cheap Spell-Like Abilities, even at 2 points a pop with 2 extra seconds of cool down. I fail to see how additional content for one arcane, in any way damages the success for the other arcane.

Echoes of Power is another matter, and while I rather like being able to hit my Wings even after I've killed my SP, I'm trying to understand why others feel the load balance is an issue.

[Venny]

Venny, just seeking clarity from your post..


I read: I have never played a 20 sorc before but got leveled on test and thought it was fun.


Is that correct?

Lol.... In the Game of DDO I am constantly playing my level 20 FVS as a Healer is always needed for shroud runs or Raids and they are apparently hard to come by and playing alongside lvl 20 Sorcs and Wizards I am a curious critter to be honest and ask alot of questions. I like learning new things. I am saying I was at lvl 12 when I brought her over to the Server and that on Sunday she Jumped to Level 20, I had also brought over my lvl 17 Pally to test the new quests and had tremendous fun doing those. But I played my sorc at lvl 12 with the teir 2 Air Savant and changed my spells to suit with the Dragon's blood pots that I had gotten. So I was testing out the Savant at lvl 12 for a few days well and THAT was fun.

Out of context I suppose you can translate what I said as being 'FUN' but the truth of the matter when taken everything IN the context presented:- The jump from 12 to 20 was Insane and difficult to compensate for but I suppose that is my idea of 'fun'.... and an Epic raid in the suberaine was NOT the place to test it... but I wanted to run the event because I had fun the day before with my FvS and her Pew Pew Archon.



Dragon's blood - isn't supposed to be easy to get so no Sorcerers without it cannot swap a number of spells without spending a rediculas amount of PP to change ONE spell and waiting three days to change another. Wizards find scrolls and can learn the spell enter a tavern and change their spells to suit the quest or rest and change Sorcs CAN'T do that. Wizards have the advantage there.

[TPFKAM]

*snip*
----------GEAR or LACK THERE OF------------

Gear - I do have the Fire and Ice robes from the Droaam quests could be why she hits hard outside of the chosen Savant field she is or it could be because I have the level 16 Ornamental Dagger. Not the Epic one. I also have access to the Phoenix Regalia but she isn't in it and Now she has the Insanity Robes (that randomly cast a Superior _____ IX upon you when you cast a spell) from the new quests along with the Scepter but I am not really liking the -10 to her Concentration just to boost the DC on her spells by 1 her dcs on some spells are already 30-49 so that is just me I suppose yes I can boost it to 31-50 but then my concentration is shot by 10... They do say that Gear is EVERYTHING... Well I have no end game gear on her and still she hits pretty **** hard while wearing gear from the Red Fens and the Sorra Kell set.
*snip*

Interesting parts bolded.
DCs in the range 30-49 (with the emphasize on 49)? Without endgame gear? Without any epics? Sorry but that is a bit hard to believe...
I sure don't want to get personal but I smell bulldung. Sorry.

[Traver]

I do not know how you can endorse something as such without knowing the current sorc situation.

It's like someone gave you a turd sandwhich, but you don't know cause you've never had one, and it's got a shiny umbrella stuck in it.

[Arctigis]

Interesting parts bolded.
DCs in the range 30-49 (with the emphasize on 49)? Without endgame gear? Without any epics? Sorry but that is a bit hard to believe...
I sure don't want to get personal but I smell bulldung. Sorry.

Some DCs are based on caster level vs. target level (Banishment, dismissal etc.). I think the new modified versions
of sleep, deep slumber might be like this.

[Venny]

reasonings 'her' dcs are 'high' is depending on what the spell is and by what gear 'she' does have her lvl being 20, her Cha stat (with a +4 Cha Tome and +2 AP bosters) and the spell focus feats that I have taken. May LR her again just to bost her Cha even higher.

ie one spell might be 30 on the DC.
Again DC applies to your own build and choice of Stats and Feats. Mine works just fine for me... will post some screen shots later though she can use some more HP. Glass Cannons sorcs are

[Aashrym]

Some DCs are based on caster level vs. target level (Banishment, dismissal etc.). I think the new modified versions
of sleep, deep slumber might be like this.

Sleep is, deep slumber is not. Sleep shows a high DC but that DC isn't accurate because of the interactive DC.

[Darlor]

The one big issue I have with the savants is that it's the only prestige that can actually REDUCE your effectiveness in many dungeons (and even entire adventure packs for that matter). I plan on going fire savant on my capped sorc. As a result, I will not be touching Amrath. That's pretty much half the end-game right there (the other half being epics). I'll also not be touching Devil Assault or Chronoscope (another adventure pack), my element is completely ineffective against the last bosses of both Snitch and The Big Top, in most of the vale (another pack), and to make matters worse, gimps the best (as far as I can tell) fall-back spell against fire immunes - namely, polar ray. You don't see hunters of the dead losing their ability to smite devils or stalwart defenders losing their ability to TWF/THF.

In principle, the idea of a prestige that gives you specialization with an expense that exceeds the opportunity cost (i.e. more than just the AP sunk into the prestige and the inability to take other prestiges) is not a bad one. But as it stands, all one gets by going fire savant is some more damage and efficiency with his fire spells (not an exceptional amount, either). They should have at least given the savants something interesting (e.g. taking on aspects of their respective elementals) which would have utility even when up against targets immune to their element. Either that or limited capacity to overcome fire immunity (on devils, anyway - fire elementals wouldn't make sense), perhaps with heat death or the curse.

It's not a matter of working some bugs or quirks out - the design seems fundamentally flawed for an entire prestige (as opposed to a choice within a prestige, e.g. how the archmage chooses a spell school). I won't consider quitting over this (or cancelling my VIP for that matter) but I am surprised how bad the fire savant prestige is looking.

[Ironforge_Clan]

I could see being a Fire Savant from level 6 up until you hit Vale. Thankfully, you'll have the Argonessen favor at that point to swap out all of your spells and switch elements.

Whilst I agree with this statement, I don't build my characters with the idea that I am going to respec them at a certain point.

[PopeJual]

Whilst I agree with this statement, I don't build my characters with the idea that I am going to respec them at a certain point.

I wouldn't build my characters with the idea that I'm going to have to *pay* to respec them at a later point, but I certainly do build them with the idea that I'll make some minor changes, especially in enhancements.

I tend to respec my enhancements 2 or 3 times over a character's life since I'll grab cheap and useful enhancements early on and then I'll pay a few gold to pick up the enhancements that cost a stack of AP (including prerequisite costs). Turbine Points don't grow on trees, but platinum certainly does.

Since the Agents of Argonessen favor will let me choose between a Syberis Dragonshard, a Collapsed Portable Hole or a complete respec of all of my spells, why not start with fire and then move to something more useful in the late game? I already have more portable holes than I can use and I certainly don't need the dragonshards.

[Xaxx]

I think I've given this long enough, since no dev or even turbine employee has stepped up and answered this question at all (yes i know of the other post which is just doublespeak) and has made it abundantly clear that they cant even give a strait answer to their players, its time for me to do the only thing that I can to get my point across and vote with my money. OH wait I already did before making this post, sorry turbine no more money from my wallet.

Should the devs decide to get their heads on strait (which we know wont or more likely cant happen) I may return, but i have enough tp from my vip account to never have to purchase anything from them anyway (sorry turbine no more cash from me). So as it stands turbine wishes to prove it cares nothing about its customers questions, the only way the customers can prove that we've had enough of their **** is to put your money where your mouth is.

Its lovely how the devs cant even answer a simple question when asked but yet can delete posts that even question their motives or mention another game or post some of the ludicrious stuff they do. I'm pretty sure this post will get deleted and I'll get an infraction point or something for this, but you know what.... I no longer care. Congrats turbine you've driven off another 5 year player. *no i'm not quite a founder*

I know this post is about to get even more posts as the people who just have to post *can I have your stuff* post in it... so.. no... you cant have my stuff...... I will delete it all before I hand out all my stuff to anyone other than guildies.

[PopeJual]

I know this post is about to get even more posts as the people who just have to post *can I have your stuff* post in it... so.. no... you cant have my stuff...... I will delete it all before I hand out all my stuff to anyone other than guildies.

Can I join your guild?

[Aashrym]

Can I join your guild?

I see what you did there.

[Jaid314]

i felt air savants are very powerful.

fly and get a big group of mobs. web. 3 sp electric loop + ball light + chain light was generally enough to kill all the epic mobs i ran up against,msot mobs were dead or very close after first pass ,those not quite dead the melees can mop up. so big group aoe damage then move on.

38 dc was good enough for mass holding stuff in red fens. web stuck on everything.

im looking forward to the pre's. me and a guildie were chewing through epics faster than we do on live servers atm quite easily.

enervate finger, energy drain pk , repeat also worked very well in vons and red fens and chrono. 30 spell pen on pk 29 on finger.38 save both on both. with the sorcs mana pool you can do this for awhile.

so if you dont like them , dont take them.

and the vast majority of that has nothing to do with being a savant, since savant has nothing whatsoever to do with save DCs on mass hold, phantasmal killer, web (well, ok, the prereq feat could be used to get a better web), etc. as for the ball lightning/chain lightning/electric loop combo, with the cost of that i have my doubts of being able to sustain it for a long time. if you don't at least match what the melees are doing, you're going to find that the melees will be much better at killing enemies than you are, and that the damage you're doing is essentially less than bringing along another melee (or a bard). if you're doing more damage than the melees, you have no stamina, and can only last long enough to do quests that have a shrine every few minutes.

Reading an implication into the statement doesn't make that implication accurate. However, better mana efficiency on the instant damage spells is part of balancing them with other spells and is obviously there. Assuming the mana efficiency should be at the same levels the old wall of fire is where that reasoning goes astray.

Blasting damage spells is working right now, give it a chance.

ok, so what exactly were you trying to say when you said the quoted text: "I would consider the fact that most sorcerers currently don't use a lot of those spells because they are limited in the number of spells available and because currently direct damage isn't popular based on cost efficiency.

Cost efficiency is changing and we have dev confirmation that elemental spells are a priority."

you stated that cost efficiency was a problem, then you noted that it was being changed, and that the devs had it as a priority. please explain to me what i'm supposed to interpret that to mean, because from where i stand, that indicates that you feel that cost efficiency is being improved, when in fact that is not the case. cost efficiency of damaging spells will go *down* with U9.

and no, blasting damage spells are not working right now. if my role is supposedly blasting the whole way through the dungeon, then i need to be able to do so, and i don't mean dealing pathetic damage with SLAs such that i'm comparable to bringing along a mechanic rogue that only does traps and throws knives at things (and yes, i have met those rogues... though thankfully not in epics).

if savant cannot sustain adequate DPS throughout the entire dungeon, it has no business claiming to be a DPS class. it is still doing unimpressive DPS (unless you blow all your SP over the course of a minute or two), it costs a crudload to get to boost your DPS to that unimpressive level, and it decreases your options.

if i want to make a DPS character right now, i wouldn't make a sorcerer, i would make a rogue or a barbarian (or even a fighter). if i wanted to make an AOE dps character, i would make those same characters and give them cleave/great cleave (or an AA ranger, or a mechanic repeater rogue build). i would not make a sorcerer, nor a savant of any kind; they lack in either sustainability, or DPS. for every other area of spellcasting, the wizard is a superior choice.

[Aashrym]

ok, so what exactly were you trying to say when you said the quoted text: "I would consider the fact that most sorcerers currently don't use a lot of those spells because they are limited in the number of spells available and because currently direct damage isn't popular based on cost efficiency.

Cost efficiency is changing and we have dev confirmation that elemental spells are a priority."

The second half of that sentence is regarding a dev post quoted below. The first half is is because we can see the higher damage in spells for lower costs, which is a change in cost efficiency for those spells. I might not have communicated my thoughts clearly looking at the way I worded it. The second half of the sentence is related to a different line of thought than the first. My apologies if I was not clear.

New elemental damage spells have rapidly become a priority as the design of the savant has unfolded. While we won’t be able to get them in for update 9, we’re aiming for our next patch. I can’t release details yet but we will be hopefully addresses issues that are making some savants less than equal in some situations. Raids/Boss encounters being a particular point of interest.

About some of the recent changes and issues…

The removal of stacking from Savant elemental curses: Raid dps testing had problems with the curses at 75% power. Balance problems.

We have an obligation to try to keep our classes balanced and maintain a certain difficulty in our boss and raid boss encounters. The stacking curse couldn’t really support those goals. As for the current situation we feel that savants can burn very bright right now in the DPS sphere, or opt for a medium to low DPS cycle at superior SP ratio depending on the situation. We like the fact it’s a choice as suppose to, “hell we just kill yonder dragon cause we’re OP”. We are following the folks crunching the numbers right now with much interest.

Acid Savant & Spells: Not where we want them yet….

1. Melf’s acid arrow: had to be nerfed because it was a PRE, and more or less we are sticking with the philosophy level 2 spells really should only be so good. Don’t worry, scorching ray is getting grandfathered in since it was nudged out of PRE land, But as you outgrow level 1 spells, level 2 spells get outgrown too, at least as far as damage is concerned.

2. Acid Rain: was unfortunately propped to Lammania with bugs. First time its numbers were completely out of wack, then it was missing ticks. This spell should now be finally fixed and giving you 4 ticks, admittedly the first with a reflex save. This spell is intended to be a hybrid between wall of fire and delayed blast fire ball. It should do more damage an any instant AOE on average except maybe tying with meteor swarm but at superior mana ratio, and does about half the damage of a wall of fire but twice as fast. I suggest giving it one more spin, particularly since it doesn’t exclude use of other persistent AOEs.

3. Burning Blood: This spell isn’t where we want it to be either, and it’s currently on hold in a diminished state. We’ve had difficulties with it because so many monsters share it and some wacky things would happen with it. Fire and forget DOTs are dangerous. We’ll improve it soon, we just need to be sure about the monster problem so we’re being cautious. Naturally, we are aiming to effect fire savants with this change as well.

4. Acid Fog: While we appreciate the players need for speed, acid fog has a great spell point damage/ratio because of its length and got a no-save armor class debuff added to it. Because it stacks with firewall/incendiary cloud or ice storm we’re not likely to be increasing the damage on this effect. We are very leery of persistent AOE saturation because it makes content trivial when the damage reaches a certain point.

5. But really we need some new elemental damage spells: We’re working on that. Spells like Polar Ray as mentioned in this thread are in our focus right now as their lack of a save and high yield (which punch resistances) make for very reliable delivery.

PRE Cool down adjustments: PRE-spells that take meta magics are very powerful in our design philosophy because they are dirt cheap, and have always had cool downs as an off set, and in theory are meant to be fired in a cycle (all three! 1,2,3). Echoes of power has some influence on this but let’s just say we felt they needed a tune down in general given the cost reductions in other parts of the spell system. Savants got three damage based meta magic enabled spells. We feel that’s very significant tool, and if you don’t you may be one of those people who eats our game for breakfast anyway…

Finger of Death and other death effects not taking Enhancements/Set Bonuses: This is a bug. We’re looking into it.