So can a dev tell me why to play a savant now?

[Jaid314]

Air Very little in the game is even resistant to this element But giving up longer Cloud kill and FTS Spell pen is rough but I'm sorry KD immunity and wings are awesome It does blow that the leap is on a longer cooldown but the Oh **** button is still full on win.

as currently implemented, you actually lose spell pen *and* save DC on your flesh to stone. which is a shame, because it has typically been the one spell you can expect to work when there are blanket immunities to everything else.

[wolflordnexus]

as currently implemented, you actually lose spell pen *and* save DC on your flesh to stone. which is a shame, because it has typically been the one spell you can expect to work when there are blanket immunities to everything else.

Hmmn you shouldn't be loosing save DC DC has nothing to do with CL I'd bug report that if you haven't already.

[Arctigis]

Hmmn you shouldn't be loosing save DC DC has nothing to do with CL I'd bug report that if you haven't already.

Well, this is debatable. At CL11, you shouldn't be able to cast FtS at all. As it is, it's 'heightening' to L5.

[Darsith]

Hmmn you shouldn't be loosing save DC DC has nothing to do with CL I'd bug report that if you haven't already.

An Air Savant is treated as a level 11 caster for earth/acid based spells. All of the DCs are based on this via heighten. Spell pen is the same (treated as a level 11 caster).

My DC on FTS is actually 1 higher with heighten turned off.

[rokes]

The savants Pre's are really crappy as they are now. At least if you didn't had to waste a feat to get, I would probably use it.

But it's not something to /ragequit about either.. luckily there are several options in this game. IF the savants go out as they are now, I for one will be TR'ing into a wizard. Not saying im happy about this... just saying that there are other options. Like roll a normal sorc, or a wiz, bard, fighter, etc etc etc...

Hopefully they'll fix it before it goes out. Maybe change the feat prereq to SF echant/necro, or make the curses stack again, or make the SLA's at least a tiny bit useful

[Destroyer_Omega]

I noticed a problem with Transmutation spells DC on live servers, when having both Scepter of the Fleshweaver + Heighten active. It may be a similar problem here, with nothing to do with Air Savants. I also didn't notice it lower the real DC of the spell, just the one in the description.

[domecek1]

Mg, it looks like FtS is worth it on these forums... Players who plays casters using it so rarely, but everybody cares about it...

[Darsith]

Mg, it looks like FtS is worth it on these forums... Players who plays casters using it so rarely, but everybody cares about it...

I have a level 20 sorc and I use it in epics on casters (after neg levels have been applied), I also use it on ToD orthons in part 3. This is pretty sop on Orien.

Not to de-rail the thread, but if you don't use FTS on the orthons what do you use? o.O

[altrocks]

I have a level 20 sorc and I use it in epics on casters (after neg levels have been applied), I also use it on ToD orthons in part 3. This is pretty sop on Orien.

Not to de-rail the thread, but if you don't use FTS on the orthons what do you use? o.O

I carry it on my Sorc on Khyber for the same reasons, but I end up rarely using it. In all the non-Sands and non-Chrono epics, I can Mass Hold with no problem. In ToD we have monks/rangers/assassins usually taking care of the trash. Very rarely do I have to actually use FtS on the orthons, but when I do, it's nice to have.

[domecek1]

I have a level 20 sorc and I use it in epics on casters (after neg levels have been applied), I also use it on ToD orthons in part 3. This is pretty sop on Orien.

Not to de-rail the thread, but if you don't use FTS on the orthons what do you use? o.O

full hands with recon WFs..P

[Jaid314]

Mg, it looks like FtS is worth it on these forums... Players who plays casters using it so rarely, but everybody cares about it...

well, it's the best spell at what it does, but you have to understand what exactly it does before you grasp why it's so important.

it isn't that it's the best general-purpose crowd control spell. it's that it's the best crowd control spell that actually works in many situations. if there weren't so many blanket immunities in the game, flesh to stone wouldn't be nearly as important. (basically, there are no blanket immunities to it, and it works on anything with flesh)

it also happens to be (as an added benefit) the best spell from the perspective of keeping a target occupied (but not dead) for extended periods of time. this is especially important whenever a dead target is undesirable for some reason (casters in echrono bloodplate fight respawn, but not if petrified; spiders in let sleeping dust lie end fight can be petrified so they're out of the way, but not dead. acolytes in inferno of the damned can be locked to a specific location and made helpless, but not dead so the transfer to other side won't take place. orthons in ToD will be replaced if killed, but not if petrified. and so forth). add in that it has a much longer time between saves than hold spells do, and you get something that can CC a target for a long, long time.

between those two things, flesh to stone is actually a very useful spell. it isn't as widely applicable as mass hold monster has been, but it is still a very good spell. you can certainly run without it, but running with it can make several difficult situations a lot easier.

[wolflordnexus]

Well, this is debatable. At CL11, you shouldn't be able to cast FtS at all. As it is, it's 'heightening' to L5.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Heighten_Spell

Ok I would bug report it then as read it should be heightened to the highest spell level you can cast I could see this being an issue for them to fix though as It's probably coded of of Caster Level instead of Spell level. Are we sure it's not just a bugged spell tool tip could anyone test? I could honestly see this one just slipping by decent QA guys these are the kind of kinks we should expect to be working out not X5 curses decimating Raid bosses.

[domecek1]

well, it's the best spell at what it does, but you have to understand what exactly it does before you grasp why it's so important.

it isn't that it's the best general-purpose crowd control spell. it's that it's the best crowd control spell that actually works in many situations. if there weren't so many blanket immunities in the game, flesh to stone wouldn't be nearly as important. (basically, there are no blanket immunities to it, and it works on anything with flesh)

it also happens to be (as an added benefit) the best spell from the perspective of keeping a target occupied (but not dead) for extended periods of time. this is especially important whenever a dead target is undesirable for some reason (casters in echrono bloodplate fight respawn, but not if petrified; spiders in let sleeping dust lie end fight can be petrified so they're out of the way, but not dead. acolytes in inferno of the damned can be locked to a specific location and made helpless, but not dead so the transfer to other side won't take place. orthons in ToD will be replaced if killed, but not if petrified. and so forth). add in that it has a much longer time between saves than hold spells do, and you get something that can CC a target for a long, long time.

between those two things, flesh to stone is actually a very useful spell. it isn't as widely applicable as mass hold monster has been, but it is still a very good spell. you can certainly run without it, but running with it can make several difficult situations a lot easier.

So you think, taking greater trans focus because of higher epic saves in U9 is worth it? I dont want cc spell, which I will be able land like 50% times... This is why I decided to web+solid fog tactic with my sorc+greater conjur focus, because CC is much more important then dps even with half hp monsters. So you can FtS casters, and rest of monsters? They can running around and killing your group? CC means crowd control, no one person control btw...

[Jaid314]

So you think, taking greater trans focus because of higher epic saves in U9 is worth it? I dont want cc spell, which I will be able land like 50% times... This is why I decided to web+solid fog tactic with my sorc+greater conjur focus, because CC is much more important then dps even with half hp monsters. So you can FtS casters, and rest of monsters? They can running around and killing your group? CC means crowd control, no one person control btw...

i wouldn't take greater transmutation focus, no, but i would definitely use it on appropriate targets.

and sometimes your crowd includes one character that is resistant to your main form of crowd control. at those times, it's nice to have a second option, such as flesh to stone. furthermore, on a sorcerer at least, flesh to stone has a very short cooldown and can typically be used to crowd control by spamming it.

like i said, it's not the best choice for general use, but it definitely is the best spell for certain specific uses.

[Aashrym]

Wizard higher DC's doesn't come into play for the damage spells as much as it does for the control spells (where the vast bulk of your save throws matter).

The only evocation spells that even have a save throw use reflex for half, and with the low reflex saves on most monsters (other than evasion type monsters) you're seldom in a situation where 1 or 2 more DC will make a measurable impact on performance. As for conjuration spells, anyone relying heavily on conjuration for damage (acid spells in particular) might surely want the feat to boost their dcs, but the vast majority of sorcerers are not going to be relying that heavily on acid spells, especially not air savants who will cast them at -9 levels, or water savants who have much more effective ways to lay down damage that is in their elemental specialization.

Wizards get a LOT more feats than sorcerers, and already get a boost to ALL DC's by virtue of their +2 to casting/DC stat in their capstone. This effects the spells that really matter and makes having to take a less useful feat to qualify for a PrE much less difficult for them.

I'm not saying they should remove the feat requirements from the savants, but they need to remember the down-sides they built in when they start reducing the benefits, and perhaps consider reducing the costs and penalties commensurate with the reduction in gains.

I was planning on responding to this sooner so I apologize for waiting.

CC spells are more expensive to cast than damage spells now and was nerfed all around. Instant Death has longer timers now, effectively a nerf to it as well pre epic, also more expensive to cast than damage spells. A higher impact less often in a quest with no more sustainability doesn't equate to better. The damage spell option can also be used on targets CC and instakill cannot. 1 higher DC on the save for evocations or conjurations can still make a difference.

The nerfing of CC durations and instakill timers was put in place in conjunction with cheaper damage spell costs in order to enable those spells for better usage. That aspect alone helps sorcerers, savant or not.

The save changes for mobs in epics are the only place sorcs will see an impact from the changes to saving throws. Everywhere else sorcerers are better off than they were, and in epic the only issue I see is with CC saves compare to pre-U9 (which is nerfed all around) because no one was using instant killing there before that in epics. Use a hypno for a quick -3 and you are almost where you were before, just like everyone else. It's great that wizzies can wail in epics now but that is still on a longer timer without a cheaper cost, and doesn't change the gameplay balance from before epic between both mage classes.

Your comment about an air savant not wanting to use acid spells works the other way too. Going earth means the player will be more likely to use those spells, still have the fire spells for area, still have the cold spells for single target damage. Giving up air isn't that bad. Going water savant and using acid to stack with cold doesn't isn't so bad either.

I think the comparison between sorcs and wizzies is quite reasonable. When all else fails with DC's, energy drain.

I see more players worried about filling a DPS slot compared to a melee DPS because of sustainability. The range and area available make up for that IMO, but that would be more of the direction to be looking at tweaking it, not a comparison to wizzies at this point.

[Rodasch]

I was planning on responding to this sooner so I apologize for waiting.

CC spells are more expensive to cast than damage spells now and was nerfed all around. Instant Death has longer timers now, effectively a nerf to it as well pre epic, also more expensive to cast than damage spells. A higher impact less often in a quest with no more sustainability doesn't equate to better. The damage spell option can also be used on targets CC and instakill cannot. 1 higher DC on the save for evocations or conjurations can still make a difference.

The nerfing of CC durations and instakill timers was put in place in conjunction with cheaper damage spell costs in order to enable those spells for better usage. That aspect alone helps sorcerers, savant or not.

The save changes for mobs in epics are the only place sorcs will see an impact from the changes to saving throws. Everywhere else sorcerers are better off than they were, and in epic the only issue I see is with CC saves compare to pre-U9 (which is nerfed all around) because no one was using instant killing there before that in epics. Use a hypno for a quick -3 and you are almost where you were before, just like everyone else. It's great that wizzies can wail in epics now but that is still on a longer timer without a cheaper cost, and doesn't change the gameplay balance from before epic between both mage classes.

Your comment about an air savant not wanting to use acid spells works the other way too. Going earth means the player will be more likely to use those spells, still have the fire spells for area, still have the cold spells for single target damage. Giving up air isn't that bad. Going water savant and using acid to stack with cold doesn't isn't so bad either.

I think the comparison between sorcs and wizzies is quite reasonable. When all else fails with DC's, energy drain.

I see more players worried about filling a DPS slot compared to a melee DPS because of sustainability. The range and area available make up for that IMO, but that would be more of the direction to be looking at tweaking it, not a comparison to wizzies at this point.

I didn't start the wizzy comparisons, my only comment was that requiring a less useful spell focus for the PrE has more impact on a Sorcerer than it would for a wizard, since wizards get bonus metamagic feats anyway. It was asked which feat was the "weak" one and I answered. Prior to update 9, you can count on one hand the Sorcerers on any given server who picked SF:evoc or SF:conj as one of their precious few feats. Think about it. If you could only pick 7 feats total for your caster, what would they be...would you consider +1 dc to 3 spells you actually use which are reflex saves worth one of those slots?

[LeLoric]

I didn't start the wizzy comparisons, my only comment was that requiring a less useful spell focus for the PrE has more impact on a Sorcerer than it would for a wizard, since wizards get bonus metamagic feats anyway. It was asked which feat was the "weak" one and I answered. Prior to update 9, you can count on one hand the Sorcerers on any given server who picked SF:evoc or SF:conj as one of their precious few feats. Think about it. If you could only pick 7 feats total for your caster, what would they be...would you consider +1 dc to 3 spells you actually use which are reflex saves worth one of those slots?

Sorcs should be swapping extend for that feat requirement not anything that they needed to achieve workable dc's so that shouldn't change.

[Aashrym]

I didn't start the wizzy comparisons, my only comment was that requiring a less useful spell focus for the PrE has more impact on a Sorcerer than it would for a wizard, since wizards get bonus metamagic feats anyway. It was asked which feat was the "weak" one and I answered. Prior to update 9, you can count on one hand the Sorcerers on any given server who picked SF:evoc or SF:conj as one of their precious few feats. Think about it. If you could only pick 7 feats total for your caster, what would they be...would you consider +1 dc to 3 spells you actually use which are reflex saves worth one of those slots?

My question was actually a bit rhetorical. D'oh, my bad for not being clear.

I would consider the fact that most sorcerers currently don't use a lot of those spells because they are limited in the number of spells available and because currently direct damage isn't popular based on cost efficiency.

Cost efficiency is changing and we have dev confirmation that elemental spells are a priority.

We might want to look at it even more closely. Taking evocation focus now comes into play a lot more just for the SLA's. It will be used more often just for that reason. Fire savant has 3 SLA's; dbf, wall of fire, and likely chain lightning, meteor swarm, cyclonic blast, and maybe greater shout (for the stun DC, which looks a bit better now that shorter CC appears to be the norm) to look at with evocation. That's more than 4 and off the top of my head.

If I am building a character with a feat requirement like that I have some incentive to take as many spells as I can get away with to take advantage of that requirement.

I would also take it with a grain of salt if you still don't like taking either feat because taking a feat that wouldn't normally be taken is a common cost for a PRE. War chanter with weapon focus is a prime example. It's not realistically of great use even tho it can help the hit ratios, but it's still there and bards aren't any less feat starved than sorcs, for example.

[maddmatt70]

Sorcs should be swapping extend for that feat requirement not anything that they needed to achieve workable dc's so that shouldn't change.

Why? I am currently running a lowby about where the haste is 2 min and it sucks and yes I have haste shroud clickies on the character. I am not swapping out extend on my sorc no way. You go right ahead..

[LeLoric]

Why? I am currently running a lowby about where the haste is 2 min and it sucks and yes I have haste shroud clickies on the character. I am not swapping out extend on my sorc no way. You go right ahead..

Already have and don't look back.