Why the extra SP cost for Evocation Archmage?

[Saravis]

Sorcs are feat starved. They can not afford to take Echoes of Power and a required Savant Feat and still be viable end game. Most likely the few sorcs that do take it will ditch it around level 10 using the free feat exchange.

Sorcs are supposed to have half the cooldown of Wizards. Sorcs should have 4 second sla cooldowns instead of 6 if a wizard has 8 seconds or the wizards should have 12 seconds since sorcs have 6 seconds under the old way. The reason they don't is that Update 9 decreased spell cooldowns for Wizards. So a sorcs spell cooldown is about 3/4 the time of a Wizards now. Wizards should now cast spells a lot faster than they could pre update 9.

One of the main features of the sorcerer is being able to cast faster than a Wizard. Making a wizard cast sla's and spells as fast as a sorc would be a huge nerf to sorcs. Decreasing wizard cooldown is already dangerously cutting into the sorc class faster cooldown feature.

That was my earlier point, though one correction isn't EoP free?

[Vengeance777]

Ah I stand corrected, thought echoes of power was a purchasable feat. Didn't realize it was a free one.

[IronClan]

That's correct.

Was it considered that being already inferior to the newly buffed PM as well as inferior to the Sorc PrE's that you made an undesirable PrE into an even more undesirable PrE?

Kinda flumoxed man, you guys seem intent on making Update 9 into DDO's version of the Star Wars Galaxies "NGE" (New Game Enhancement) The one where a significant portion of the player base got up and left and they lost player base from their on out. Perhaps you're familiar with it.

I realize it's not quite that nerfalicious yet... but you guys keep adding more so...

[muffinlad]

If Echo's of power was a paid for feat, it had better give a lot more mana back than it currently does.

That being said, with the upcoming changes, all of my Arch-Magi will pretty much dump the spells. With this change, they have been made nearly worthless.

If the Devs are going to go this route, they should make the cool down's 60 seconds and the mana free (as it has been pre-paid). In most cases that would be of more use to me over a 10 to 20 min quest.

muffinhugs

[ZeroTakenaka]

I like Echoes of Power at high levels so I can keep casting my gimpo spells like magic missile and stuff when I'm out of mana... however I'm not gonna be using my spells through the entire quest and by the time I would normally have to use Echoes the boss should be dead.

[Dawnsfire]

why not instead of messing with the SLA's because of echoes of power which was intended to help low lvl new players. Make echoes of power fade over time so that by lvl 6 it is gone.I think once someone gets to lvl 6 they shouldnt need it anymore.

Are there really many mages/sorcs that cast nonbuff spells before level 6/7? I always pull out an two hander through those levels. Personally I would make 'echos' a # of times per rest effect with an enhancement to up the number if some people need it.

[Angelus_dead]

That's correct.

That does not make sense as a reason.

Echoes of Power only kicks in when the player character is at essentially zero sp, meaning close to worthless as an offensive force. If there's something valuable and productive a Wizard can achieve by casting a few SLAs and then waiting for Echoes of Power to cast them again, he can also achieve that with a minimal number of Mnemonic Enhancer potions.

There is honestly lots of room to buff Echoes of Power before it becomes a true balance concern. If Echoes of Power + Evoc SLAs is overpowered, then Mnemonic Enhancer + Evoc SLAs is also overpowered, and some other way to nerf Evoc SLAs should be investigated.

[MindCake]

That's correct.

So you want people to be able to continue casting when out of SP, as long as they are unable to continue casting when out of SP? What?

BTW, how about slowing down the recovery, but giving it a bigger max SP, say recover 1 SP every 2-3 seconds up to 14+character level? That'd reduce the asymptotic DPS, but at least let the wizard cast something other every once in a while (If they're willing to wait a minute for the battery to recharge...)

[Farayon]

So you want people to be able to continue casting when out of SP, as long as they are unable to continue casting when out of SP? What?

A good question. Why introduce 'echoes of power' in the first place when obviously we're not supposed to cast anything with it at all!?

[Saravis]

So you want people to be able to continue casting when out of SP, as long as they are unable to continue casting when out of SP? What?

A good question. Why introduce 'echoes of power' in the first place when obviously we're not supposed to cast anything with it at all!?

Huh? I think you guys are taking this to the extremes.

EoP kicks in when a player is below 12 sp, restoring 4 sp every 6 seconds. In other words you can still cast your SLAs and such on a regular basis, you just can't spam them.

[Thuriaz]

Seems to me you couldn't "Spam" them before, just a way to get down to echo's of power more quickly in those few quests that tax sp enough that you might, through using JUST SLA's, need echo's of power. It's like patting yourself on the back for winning a patting yourself on the back contest.

No one is impressed but the one patting them self on the back.

My thoughts, remove Echo's of Power, it's doing NOTHING for new players. Replace it with *drum roll* a 60 second cool down clicky that will restore SP to 20. That gives MORE options for a caster who is "out of sp" and with a 60 second delay makes it something you CAN'T Spam in a quest. Though I suppose echo's of power is "more dangerous" in that you have to wait for the recharge to keep casting after isolating a mob, but honestly if you have enough things coming after you that you need 12, or 20 SP back, you've already got in over your head.

The way I'm seeing this, it's just a way to drain an Evocation Archmage's limited SP pool even faster. It's a nerf built to nerf an already nerfed option. Might as well remove all SLA's at this point, it'd be faster.

Not happy with this change either Turbine.

Also as for the "Making Casters more viable at low levels" When your that low a level your either A) Soloing with a hirling who has DV or B) not getting a lot of chances to cast spells before the team wipes a monster anyway so you got plenty of SP.

It's those rare situations where a caster is firing off more spells than is reasonable, this is already handled by the REDUCED SPELL COST of almost 80% of the low level spells of any concern. So why do we need Echo's of power!?!?!

Return Evo SLA's to their previous cost, remove Echos of Power, and be done with this silliness before you loose customers.

[MindCake]

Huh? I think you guys are taking this to the extremes.

EoP kicks in when a player is below 12 sp, restoring 4 sp every 6 seconds. In other words you can still cast your SLAs and such on a regular basis, you just can't spam them.

Maybe I'm seeing slippery slopes where there aren't any.

It just sounded odd. Being able to keep casting when out of SP was supposed to be the next new thing. And arcane spell spamming DPS was also supposed to be the next new thing. (Replacing FW and mass hold).
And this? This reads like "I'm on it! Nerfing the new thing as we speak. Also, nerfing the old thing too, for balance.", which to this day I thought was a joke.

If SLAs+Spells+Echo is overpowered, I'd rather see the Echo nerfed, than the other two. And I'd rather see SLAs nerfed (say, with cooldowns) than the spells. Otherwise the Wizards may end up with:
no DoT (because it was overused and so it was nerfed)
no CC (because it was overused and so it was nerfed)
no DPS (because it had to be nerfed or Echo would be overpowered)
Echo (and no practical way of using it, because they were all nerfed, lest they be overpowered).

[Saravis]

Seems to me you couldn't "Spam" them before, just a way to get down to echo's of power more quickly in those few quests that tax sp enough that you might, through using JUST SLA's, need echo's of power. It's like patting yourself on the back for winning a patting yourself on the back contest.

My point wasn't that you could spam spells before the current "nerf" (I really would have no idea if you could or not) my point was that EoP is meant to allow you to use your SLAs without being able to spam them.

Maybe I'm seeing slippery slopes where there aren't any.

It just sounded odd. Being able to keep casting when out of SP was supposed to be the next new thing. And arcane spell spamming DPS was also supposed to be the next new thing. (Replacing FW and mass hold).

It is the next "big" thing, but you misunderstand what that "thing" is, its meant to allow casters to continue contributing to a quest even when they're out of fuel.
If you thought it was meant to allow you to rapid fire your SLAs, well sorry to disappoint.

[MindCake]

It is the next "big" thing, but you misunderstand what that "thing" is, its meant to allow casters to continue contributing to a quest even when they're out of fuel.
If you thought it was meant to allow you to rapid fire your SLAs, well sorry to disappoint.

I thought the whole spell pass was meant to make arcane rapid fire Spell+SLAs DPS a viable tactics.
I thought echoes was meant to allow you to contribute, though not at full power, when out of SP.

I thought the system as it was, was allowing an evocation/necro AM to contribute some DPS, enchantment and conjuration AMs some CC, when out of SP, though not at full power- because they'd be using the cheapest rather than most effective, and they'd be waiting for the echo rather than the cooldowns. And I thought it was the point. So yeah.

[Gum]

Sometimes...things don't need balancing.

[steelblueskies]

given the eternal wands now recharge fully in 56 seconds or less. 50 charges of spells costing around 4 sp, enhancements available, base cl3. which reperesents more sp? the wands or echoes? which change seems better targeted at spell spam and low levels? the wands beat the pants, shoes, and shirt off of echoes of power at levels below 5, and likely for a while after, especially considering max and empower haven't changed.

a single eternal wand represents essentially a full sp pool or more at those levels.every minute, per wand. you can't fully spam drain one before another drained wand would be at full.

so either those aren't balanced together yet, or echoes was targeted at pre-shipwreck shore completion and mid to end game.

it's looking more and more like the latter.

i would like to ask however- is any consideration on the table looking at arcane bolt and arcane blast reflex save dc's at endgame(ie any content from vale onwards)?

also i was under the impression that the mantle of invunerability on suulomades, and the war mode immunity on the demon queen were to combat things like wall of fire grade cheese tactics. are those effect being considered for change given the new sla system and spellpass? the out of fuel usability of the new direction seems to hit a full stop in those places.

[Isolani]

i would like to ask however- is any consideration on the table looking at arcane bolt and arcane blast reflex save dc's at endgame(ie any content from vale onwards)?

I hope they look at this also. Without metas, arcane bolt isn't even worth casting for 1 SP, much less 2. At L20 it does such a pathetic amount of damage most of the time due to low DC and lack of metas, I just gave up on pushing the button eventually. Arcane blast isn't much better, but it least it can hit a lot of mobs at once for crappy damage.

Ehh, I'll probably TR again back to a FvS in U9 anyway. Evoc AM seemed kinda weak to me, you had tremendous SP endurance which is great for leveling and for getting through some of the longer quests (Evoc. AM is godly for soloing Stealer of Souls), but the dps was nothing to get excited about. Now that they are taking away some of the SP endurance, what's the point? Just roll a FvS and let your archon hit things for as much as arcane bolt did most of the time, but it does it every couple seconds without me having to push a button...and even a low DC blade barrier is far better than arcane blast.

At least now you can run out of SP faster and take advantage of Echoes of Power.

[Raiderone]

Balancing for Echoes of Power would be my guess. Scorching ray went up from 4 sp (iirc) to 8 sp as well. They increased arcane bolt from 1 SP to 2 SP, and blast from 5 SP to 6 SP as well, because you can go a long ways with those damage spells just running on Echoes of Power.

When I tried last week, as long as I was careful to not get overwhelmed, Echoes of Power allowed me to cycle between 1 SP arcane bolt, 4 SP scorching ray, and 4 SP arcane blast. At 4 SP regen every 6 seconds, and a 15 SP cap, it was mildly overpowered, so long as you could live with a pew-pew playstyle. Magic missile at 1 SP was equivalent to arcane bolt.

It sucks, but 2 sp isn't bad. I'd happily pay 2 sp for AM hypno that isn't nerfed to near-uselessness.

Then get rid of Echoes of Power... Easy Button and here's your nerf!

Get rid of the Easy Button and no nerf...

[Elphvyra]

Good grief... Drink a potion and don't worry about the tiny amount of mana you'll "regen" from the Feat.....

[Vanquishedfo]

This really really makes me feel slapped in the face I have to agree. Sorcs have been from day one given way more in DDO then wizards when compared to PnP. Wizards dont even get the real advantages of items of wizardry which where doubling thier total number of spells per day. For a sorc sure that just means more cast, fora wiz that would also mean doubling hsi diversity of what he could have memorized.

Few even go AM atm compared to PM. I enjoy AM a fair bit for the moment but increasing our cost and cooldowns, which are already higher then sorcerers. That is lame. If anything sorc need to get slammed if wizzies are to. Make them pay double what wizards do for meta magic feats that would resemble the fact in PnP sorcerers using those kind of feats where not actually better at using them then wizards as they do here in DDO.

When they also get to swap out spells every 3 days for a trivial plat costs and KNOW all content in the game, you cant even say the fact wizards can change spells on the fly is really even much of an advantage anymore.