Replace "Kill Count" with "Damage Count"

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

Ok, I'll elaborate. How many times have you been in a raid and you kill them raid boss. Then for a full 15 seconds, damage numbers keep flying above your head.

Now, even if you're exporting to a file in realtime... all DPS numbers would be hopelessly off to the point of irrelevancy.

I'm not saying real-time parsing shouldn't happen. It would still be neat in a few situations... and there would probably come some really neat add-ons from the players side. But it wouldn't be sufficient to something a dev could do on their end.

I've had that happen once or twice, but I assumed the numbers would still end up in the log... however the next time this occurs I will be sure to confirm if this is the case... regardless, log parsing would be far more useful than relying on them to program a full set of tools themselves.

[Aussir]

You could probably use griefing as a reason to not sign EVERY single suggestion, request, or gui enhancement ever conceived. It's a poor reason.

I've been playing DDO for years and years now... I have never once been griefed because of kill count. I'm pretty sure it's myth and conjecture... or people noticed others' crappy play and used it as the easiest quantifiable referendum on their play.

I don't see a reason to have "kids" going about "lulz! My DPS is better than yours", which is would happen. I stated my reasons here: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...76&postcount=4

Also, in march I'll clock 5 years of DDO and I haven't been griefed either. That doesn't mean that I don't know it happens and automatically deny it.
Grefing is not a myth and is getting worse as the hordes of "must hav min/max/uber items-or u sux" people keep pouring into the game ever since it went F2P.
Just be happy that you never fell prey to it and probably never will if you run mostly with people from a guild or within a channel.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Ok, I'll elaborate. How many times have you been in a raid and you kill them raid boss. Then for a full 15 seconds, damage numbers keep flying above your head.

Now, even if you're exporting to a file in realtime... all DPS numbers would be hopelessly off to the point of irrelevancy.

I'm not saying real-time parsing shouldn't happen. It would still be neat in a few situations... and there would probably come some really neat add-ons from the players side. But it wouldn't be sufficient to something a dev could do on their end.

This is a big issue as well. How many times (the Shroud part IV is infamous for this) have member of the party been killed (you see the kill message in party chat) yet you see full health bars for a good 10 seconds? And yes I've had many times that we've killed Arri and it shows on a few people's screen as him alive and at 5% ... crazy out of sync stuff.

[bobbryan2]

I don't see a reason to have "kids" going about "lulz! My DPS is better than yours", which is would happen. I stated my reasons here: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...76&postcount=4

Also, in march I'll clock 5 years of DDO and I haven't been griefed either. That doesn't mean that I don't know it happens and automatically deny it is a reason to refuse anything.
Grefing is not a myth and is getting worse as the hordes of "must have min/max/uber items kids" keep pouring into the game ever since it went F2P.
Just be happy that you never fell prey to it and probably never will if you run mostly with people from a guild or within a channel.

So... in 5 years of DDO, you haven't been griefed. I haven't been griefed... but we're supposed to deny coding that would benefit both of us because other people say they've been griefed by children?

Really?

That's a bit of a martyrdom complex. I don't believe in hand-cuffing everyone else because it might get abused. That's just coding to the lowest element... and will result in training wheels on everything. Training wheels and warning labels.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

I don't see a reason to have "kids" going about "lulz! My DPS is better than yours", which is would happen. I stated my reasons here: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...76&postcount=4

Also, in march I'll clock 5 years of DDO and I haven't been griefed either. That doesn't mean that I don't know it happens and automatically deny it.
Grefing is not a myth and is getting worse as the hordes of "must hav min/max/uber items-or u sux" people keep pouring into the game ever since it went F2P.
Just be happy that you never fell prey to it and probably never will if you run mostly with people from a guild or within a channel.

I agree. Also, since we're going to be showing individual damage dealt, I'd like, then, to show individual damage healed, haste received, rage received, resists received and damage mitigated by stone skin and blur/displacement to be deducted from their total. So Super awesome Mr. Tank DPS:
DPS Dealt 10000 DPS - (7000 heal + 1000 extra damge because of haste + 500 dmg because of rage + 1000 dmg mitigated from resists/stoneskin/blur) = 500 net DPS

Then we can talk about fair numbers.

[hecate355]

/not signed

The kill count is actually a useful tool. It is not THE tool to determine who is contributing, but it can be helpful if taken in context. Say there are two tanks and you are one of them. The quest has about 100 mobs and together you and the other tank score 90% of the kills. You and the other tank are both the same level, same class, and smacking around stuff an equal amount of the time. But the other tank is outkilling you 60 to 30. The other tank might have some helpful tips for you (if you care to ask). Or maybe its just luck. But if you notice this kind of thing happening to you all the time, maybe you take a hint and look at your strategy/tactics. But it is NOT justification to exclude people from your groups or proof that one person is a better player than another.

The fact that people use it in immature ways is not a fault of the system. People misuse MyDDO, but that doesn't mean MyDDO doesn't serve a useful function.

And as other people have already said, the combat log can give you damage feedback if you want it.

on conditions where both chars land hits without much trouble(melee) and one char has 60, other 30; only means person A tried harder to connect his hits to mobs and player B simply didnt bother/have urge to swing at everything that already was as good as dead.

kill count is flawed simply because in vast majority of cases it doesent even matter if everyone does his best cutting off every extra second mobs live, every second separating them from completion.

I have completely different way looking at situation you described. If player A managed to kill 60 vs 30, then hell yea hes good, everything dies fast anyway, why should i as player B jump out of my pants to try to land killing blows on things already dead? If player A is so **** good, everything dies by his hands, then my lower numbers doesent mean im worse, they simply indicate that I WASNT needed to assist there first place.

Lots of talk, but hope my logic got somewhere...

[bobbryan2]

I agree. Also, since we're going to be showing individual damage dealt, I'd like, then, to show individual damage healed, haste received, rage received, resists received and damage mitigated by stone skin and blur/displacement to be deducted from their total. So Super awesome Mr. Tank DPS:
DPS Dealt 10000 DPS - (7000 heal + 1000 extra damge because of haste + 500 dmg because of rage + 1000 dmg mitigated from resists/stoneskin/blur) = 500 net DPS

Then we can talk about fair numbers.

The numbers aren't there to quantify every single party members' every single action. If you need the game to pat you on the back numerically because you cast resists... maybe there's some more going on.

I'm all for knowing how much damage I took. Or how much actual healing I did on my cleric vs how much overhealing I did. Anything that could conceivably improve my play or let me know which strategies are working.

I really don't need the fighter in the party to know that 1% of their DPS came from my rage.

[hecate355]

PS. From ideas posted here so far, i like Shade's most. I sure would love to have some more feedback about what exactly and how my char did during some encounters.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

The numbers aren't there to quantify every single party members' every single action. If you need the game to pat you on the back numerically because you cast resists... maybe there's some more going on.

I'm all for knowing how much damage I took. Or how much actual healing I did on my cleric vs how much overhealing I did. Anything that could conceivably improve my play or let me know which strategies are working.

I really don't need the fighter in the party to know that 1% of their DPS came from my rage.

The whole point is that you can't pick and choose. Why is melee DPS any more important that buffs and resists? What about how those numbers can be incredibly inflated by a good caster owning the place with mass holds?

[Dexol]

My damage count is bigger than your damage count!

Wouldnt mind it added to show your own damage only for your referance, otherwise its a ****ing contenst.

[Phidius]

...I've been playing DDO for years and years now... I have never once been griefed because of kill count. I'm pretty sure it's myth and conjecture...

I've never been griefed because of kill count either, but I have had to put up with more than my share of pretentious blowhards who think the kill count means they are the better player, which gives them the right to talk smack about the other players.

[Khanyth]

/not signed.

Too miniscule a reason to warrant a change.

>If< a change is made. it should be to make the kill count a group number. Then maybe have a drop down box that players can see out of the groups total, who killed how much.

[bobbryan2]

The whole point is that you can't pick and choose. Why is melee DPS any more important that buffs and resists? What about how those numbers can be incredibly inflated by a good caster owning the place with mass holds?

Ok... show me all these griefing melees that don't want resists, and don't think that resists help them at all. You're arguing a point no one's making. Who needs to see feedback on resists? I mean... really.

I actually would like to see feedback on a lot of buffs. So people would stop wasting mana on half of them when it shows a dramatic sp loss compared with benefits received. But I think that explanation would be far too convoluted to put into any sort of score sheet. I mean... people that cast magic circle again evil and mass aid at every shrine? It kills me.

Numbers still take interpretation. It seems like you're wanting the numbers to be so inclusive that no interpretation is necessary. And that's not possible.

[bobbryan2]

I've never been griefed because of kill count either, but I have had to put up with more than my share of pretentious blowhards who think the kill count means they are the better player, which gives them the right to talk smack about the other players.

So.. that's not griefing? What is?

[Aussir]

So... in 5 years of DDO, you haven't been griefed. I haven't been griefed... but we're supposed to deny coding that would benefit both of us because other people say they've been griefed by children?

Really?

That's a bit of a martyrdom complex. I don't believe in hand-cuffing everyone else because it might get abused. That's just coding to the lowest element... and will result in training wheels on everything. Training wheels and warning labels.

I agree to: everyone seeing their own DPS (or spell dc's, heals, etc)
I don't agree to: everyone seeing each other's DPS (or spell dc's, heals, etc)

You don't care about people getting segregated or griefed, others do. You don't care about the "lulz kids", others do.
Let's agree to disagree and move on because right now, we're going nowhere.

[Kovalas]

I like this idea, but have always like the idea of more data on the XP card, I would prefer to add it as well as the kill count rather then instead off.

I also played DDO for 5 years almost, and have never been or seen anyone mocked or teased for a low kill count, or lack of damage output (apart from pulling guildies legs) even when it has been painfully obvious or outright annoying, I think this whole 'the kids will use it to 'diss/grief' each other all night is fearmongering.

And even if someone did, grow some skin.

Kov

[bobbryan2]

I agree to: everyone seeing their own DPS
I don't agree to: everyone seeing each other's DPS

You don't care about people getting segregated or griefed, others do. You don't care about the "lulz kids", others do.
Let's agree to disagree and move on because right now, we're going nowhere.

Here's the difference. People that have a problem with children griefing have the option to not play with them in the future.

I don't have the option of knowing how my DPS ranks numerically with other people in the party.

So basically people are declining useful information because they don't want to moniter who they group with. That's like saying, I can't control myself, so not only do I want Turbine to control me, but I want Turbine to control everyone else so I don't feel left out.

[Aussir]

I like this idea, but have always like the idea of more data on the XP card, I would prefer to add it as well as the kill count rather then instead off.

I also played DDO for 5 years almost, and have never been or seen anyone mocked or teased for a low kill count, or lack of damage output (apart from pulling guildies legs) even when it has been painfully obvious or outright annoying, I think this whole 'the kids will use it to 'diss/grief' each other all night is fearmongering.

And even if someone did, grow some skin.

Kov

I will assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you came from our defunct EU server (I think you were Kovarlas jearl on the forum or something similar?)
We didn't have F2P there, it was a completely different atmosphere than here. We basically knew each other and each other's builds and how each other plays, we ran in guild or had channels set up for abbot and the likes. How are we going to get griefed then?

F2P attracts all kinds of people and yes, some don't have the "skin" to take "lulz kids". Still, go around the forums and what do you see? Lvl 20's fully geared being declined and mocked at because they appear as lower level with "sub-par" equips on MyDDO (and people forget/ignore that myDDO is broken), people being declined because they don't have one of the "must have" builds, "must have weapon/item", etc.

Seeing each other's DPS would increase this screening even more and lead to even more division in the community. "Oh, player X does less than me and is the same class, lulz. He sucks!"

Like I said, not everyone plays min/max monsters full of raid/epic items but some people wouldn't take that into account. They'd only take into account that person X did less damage.

[bobbryan2]

I will assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you came from our defunct EU server (I think you were Kovarlas jearl or something similar?)
We didn't have F2P there, it was a completely different atmosphere than here. We basically knew each other and each other's builds, we ran in guild or had channels set up for abbot and the likes. How are we going to get griefed then?

F2P attracts all kinds of people and yes, some don't have the "skin" to take "lulz kids". Still, go around the forums and what do you see? Lvl 20's fully geared being declined and mocked at because they appear as lower level with "sub-par" equips on MyDDO (and people forget/ignore that myDDO is broken), people being declined because they don't have one of the "must have" builds, "must have weapon", etc.

Seeing each other's DPS would increase this screening even more and lead to even more division in the community. "Oh, player X does less than me and is the same class, lulz. He sucks!"

Like I said, not everyone plays min/max monsters full of raid/epic items but some people wouldn't take that into account. They'd only take into account that person X did less damage.

See, and I still have not run into this. The guy I'm playing as my main right now only appears as lvl 9 on myDDO. I've never once been asked to link a DR beater, let alone declined because myDDO didn't pan out. I've never been declined because of 'must have' builds... no one's asked me what weapons I had.

Hell, when I hit lvl 18, someone let me into a VoD hard without a question.. and I actually hadn't crafted my Min II yet, because I forgot my power cells and had to wait 3 more days. We completed fine, and I tried to focus on trash a little more than I normally would have.

I know people complain about these types of things all the time on the forums... but I always assume I don't know the whole story. My lack of corroborating evidence in game says these things should all be taken with a grain of salt.

[Phidius]

I've never been griefed because of kill count either, but I have had to put up with more than my share of pretentious blowhards who think the kill count means they are the better player, which gives them the right to talk smack about the other players.

So.. that's not griefing? What is?

I consider griefing to be any action that is done with the deliberate goal of causing another distress or discomfort.

Most of the "pretentious blowhards" were actually friends of mine who couldn't resist the Kill Count's siren song. Heck, I've been one of them often enough myself!

Just because someone isn't any fun to play with doesn't mean they're a griefer.