Replace "Kill Count" with "Damage Count"

[bobbryan2]

I consider griefing to be any action that is done with the deliberate goal of causing another distress or discomfort.

Most of the "pretentious blowhards" were actually friends of mine who couldn't resist the Kill Count's siren song. Heck, I've been one of them often enough myself!

Just because someone isn't any fun to play with doesn't mean they're a griefer.

Fair enough... My experience of the blowhards has actually been pretty minimal... unless it's in an all guild group and we're just ribbing each other and competing. It's not fun for me to point it out when I'm actually demolishing competition. Only when I'm 1 or 2 ahead.

[jwdaniels]

Better idea - stop caring about what your DPS is. That way, you don't need to calculate it, display it or brag about it and nobody can grief you over it.

If, at the end of the quest, the mobs are dead and you're not then the group's DPS was obviously high enough.

[Jaid314]

yeah, i'm not convinced this would be a bad thing. maybe not replace, if people want to keep kill count as well that's fine i guess (for those who are just concerned about exp, the simple solution is to count instakill as removing all of the mob's remaining HP).

i could care less if anyone looks at my sorcerer or bard's damage dealt and sees that it's low (or high). my sorcerer is not a melee, why would i be compared to a melee-focused stat? everyone knows that i'm the guy throwing the holds, webs, etc.

i do think it would be useful to see damage dealt. i'd *love* to see a parser, and i don't think it would be a bad thing even if the information was all made public. there will be, as with all other things, an expected threshold among the population of DDO. sure, some people will use it to make fun of others. what's your point? right now, this very second, people in DDO are making fun of other people in DDO because of what class they have. also probably race. also probably weapon choice. also probably spell selection. in fact, pretty much any choice you can possibly make with your character, odds are good someone is either being made fun of over making a certain choice right now, or will be shortly.

now, we could come to the conclusion that this means those things are the problem (being able to choose weapons is no good, let's force everyone to use khopesh whether they want to or not!), or we could come to the conclusion that certain *people* are the problem, and will be a problem whether or not they see anyone else's damage.

one group of people possibly making fun of others is not a valid reason to deny something like this. i'll accept "i don't care", or "i don't think it's worth the time to code it", or "i don't think it will provide any useful information" if you'd like. but "someone might use it as ammunition to belittle other people" is simply not a good reason; there is already pretty much unlimited ammunition to belittle other people if you're going to do it, adding to the list isn't going to have any significant impact on people being belittled. it might change some of the reasons, but it won't change the fact that it's happening.

[voodoogroves]

Damage won't reflect the person who's invested in and smart enough to switch to dual vorpals at the right time or be an assassin 3, nor will it account for the insta-killed folks from wail, finger, assassinate, etc.

Another metric isn't always good, if the metric can be vastly misinterpreted.

[Jaid314]

Damage won't reflect the person who's invested in and smart enough to switch to dual vorpals at the right time or be an assassin 3, nor will it account for the insta-killed folks from wail, finger, assassinate, etc.

Another metric isn't always good, if the metric can be vastly misinterpreted.

again, simple solution. the mob had 500 hit points left when it was instakilled, it counts as 500 damage. problem solved.

[Soulken]

NO thanks but lets change kill count to just a total and not list the source of what killed it.

[Kovalas]

I will assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you came from our defunct EU server (I think you were Kovarlas jearl on the forum or something similar?)
We didn't have F2P there, it was a completely different atmosphere than here. We basically knew each other and each other's builds and how each other plays, we ran in guild or had channels set up for abbot and the likes. How are we going to get griefed then?

F2P attracts all kinds of people and yes, some don't have the "skin" to take "lulz kids". Still, go around the forums and what do you see? Lvl 20's fully geared being declined and mocked at because they appear as lower level with "sub-par" equips on MyDDO (and people forget/ignore that myDDO is broken), people being declined because they don't have one of the "must have" builds, "must have weapon/item", etc.

Seeing each other's DPS would increase this screening even more and lead to even more division in the community. "Oh, player X does less than me and is the same class, lulz. He sucks!"

Like I said, not everyone plays min/max monsters full of raid/epic items but some people wouldn't take that into account. They'd only take into account that person X did less damage.

That is I......./bow

Maybe you should come group with me/us if this is what you have to put up with, Now that were on the same server :P and bring the Drow with you.

I play tooled up dudes, I only have a few, but they are armed well, min/max builds er ish as well, but I have been declined from Shroud PUGS still on US Servers, only because I'm a Rogue....

I do get annoyed by this, but I simply add the leader to my friends list with a 'Rogue Discrim Shrouder' next to his name, and when, that same character trys to join my groups, I decline them, and tell them exactly why. If they get ****y and start griefing I ignore them, if they say something apologetic I invite them. Regardless of which reaction I get, they think about declining the next Rogue that wants in there group :P

I just don't like the argument that because there is griefing 'potential' then something shouldnt be added, because this reminds me of a 'nanny state' which I believe from your past posts and bio, is not what your about at all, and me neither.

Kov

[Kovalas]

Damage won't reflect the person who's invested in and smart enough to switch to dual vorpals at the right time or be an assassin 3, nor will it account for the insta-killed folks from wail, finger, assassinate, etc.

Another metric isn't always good, if the metric can be vastly misinterpreted.

But cant all metrics be misinterpreted?

I won't reflect a person whose is Assassin III (me) or switches to Vorpals for trash (most twf) but it would interesting reading for an all guild elite TOD for instance, why should the majority be denied something because of a minority?

Kov

[kernal42]

It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

I also think that this would be a relatively easy coding change, as there is already a combat log telling me everything that is happening, and a change to program that just adds that damage up doesnt seem too complex. I may be wrong though. (if this is a complex coding change, then it isnt really worth it)

I would love to see a quest-long damage counter. I would love even to see a quest-long damage counter showing only my damage contribution, which should obviate any potential griefing toward low-dps toons.

Cheers,
Kernal

[krud]

I would rather that kill count or any other individual meter not be in the xp logs.

Instead they should include more e-peen measuring tools on the guild ship training dummy. Give it more options (variable fort, dr, etc). View your results right there on the ship.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Ok... show me all these griefing melees that don't want resists, and don't think that resists help them at all. You're arguing a point no one's making. Who needs to see feedback on resists? I mean... really.

I actually would like to see feedback on a lot of buffs. So people would stop wasting mana on half of them when it shows a dramatic sp loss compared with benefits received. But I think that explanation would be far too convoluted to put into any sort of score sheet. I mean... people that cast magic circle again evil and mass aid at every shrine? It kills me.

Numbers still take interpretation. It seems like you're wanting the numbers to be so inclusive that no interpretation is necessary. And that's not possible.

My point is that everyone's job can be reduced to a menial task. You say you are not interested in knowing how much damage was mitigated be elemental resists across the whole party yet you are interested in knowing the numbers that come up overhead for a melee swinging a sword or a cleric casting a spell. D&D (and by extensions DDO) by its very nature you cannot have meaningful individual metrics. It's a group-oriented game and mechanics you cannot possibly know how good or bad anyone character can do while in a group context. If you really want to know how well you (individually) measure up against different mobs with different fortification, I suggest trying training dummies.

[bobbryan2]

My point is that everyone's job can be reduced to a menial task. You say you are not interested in knowing how much damage was mitigated be elemental resists across the whole party yet you are interested in knowing the numbers that come up overhead for a melee swinging a sword or a cleric casting a spell. D&D (and by extensions DDO) by its very nature you cannot have meaningful individual metrics. It's a group-oriented game and mechanics you cannot possibly know how good or bad anyone character can do while in a group context. If you really want to know how well you (individually) measure up against different mobs with different fortification, I suggest trying training dummies.

Ok.. what I'm actually saying. Is that you're taking my argument, enhancing it to the point of absurdity, and then saying anything less is incomplete.

That's like saying if we can't have a whole cake, why should we even want a slice?

I'm for whatever metrics you want to put in there. As long as it's meaningful data, I'll take it. For instance.. I would LOVE to see a heal/overheal ratio. I think most bad clerics I run with err on that single stat. If you want a total damage mitigation through ablative resistances.. fine. I have no problem with it. I only have a problem with you saying that a DPS counter without ablative resistance counter is meaningless.

That's a silly statement.

[Aaxeyu]

Damage won't reflect the person who's invested in and smart enough to switch to dual vorpals at the right time or be an assassin 3, nor will it account for the insta-killed folks from wail, finger, assassinate, etc.

Another metric isn't always good, if the metric can be vastly misinterpreted.

So? The point is not to compare epeens, the point is to see how much damage you are doing yourself. You know if you are using instakill for example.

Just because it doesn't include every and all variable desn't mean that it can't be perfectly fine to measure the variable it was meant to measure.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

That's a silly statement.

Is it not silly for a DPS counter to ignore all other factors that helped in getting that number? I think it is.

DPS Monster with no heals and resists -> dead.
Dead -> Zero DPS.
∴ DPS Monster with no heals and resists -> Zero DPS.

[Aussir]

That is I......./bow

Maybe you should come group with me/us if this is what you have to put up with, Now that were on the same server :P and bring the Drow with you.

I play tooled up dudes, I only have a few, but they are armed well, min/max builds er ish as well, but I have been declined from Shroud PUGS still on US Servers, only because I'm a Rogue....

Nice to see you around, mate. Any chars on Ghal to pay a visit to the rest of us?
Oh, I had that same thing happen to my ranger. I suppose they thought she had 200HP and couldn't kill a fly . Take note of the "nice person" and move on.
But then, the rest of the people from EU got transferred... bye bye, PUGS and annoyances. The people I party with know my builds and know how I play, no griefing there, only advice if I ask for it.

I do get annoyed by this, but I simply add the leader to my friends list with a 'Rogue Discrim Shrouder' next to his name, and when, that same character trys to join my groups, I decline them, and tell them exactly why. If they get ****y and start griefing I ignore them, if they say something apologetic I invite them. Regardless of which reaction I get, they think about declining the next Rogue that wants in there group :P

Maybe you should hop on Ghallandra and go about with the peeps. just be aware: we always blame the monk.

As for the topic at hand... I speak out of seeing what happened with myDDO and like it, this would be a double-edged sword. I'm not saying it wouldn't be useful, but DPS is more than just whack something with an axe and get a number.
The problem is, certain people would only look at that number in detriment of all the factors that come into play for the final DPS/heal/you name it.
Others would just use it to boost e-peen and have bios like: "I did 700dmg to <mob>" (hello frenzy).
I think at some point it would end up like myDDO: some want it gone, some want it fixed.

I just don't like the argument that because there is griefing 'potential' then something shouldnt be added, because this reminds me of a 'nanny state' which I believe from your past posts and bio, is not what your about at all, and me neither.

Kov

I think we both should move countries then

[Chai]

It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

I also think that this would be a relatively easy coding change, as there is already a combat log telling me everything that is happening, and a change to program that just adds that damage up doesnt seem too complex. I may be wrong though. (if this is a complex coding change, then it isnt really worth it)

How exactly would damage count be any less of a tool that would allow barbs or casters to wave their ePeen® around?

No to damage meter. People do alot more, and can be an effective group mate in other ways, than just damaging mobs in groups, and theres already a large enough contingent of players who measure a toons / players worth solely on how much DPS it can put out.

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If I put a damage meter in this type of game, I would make it so the enabler got the credit for the DPS caused above and beyond what the melee would have provided sans enabler. If a wizard casts a mass hold, each hit your TWF heavy pick rogue delivers would be considered a normal hit for the rogues DPS, except for rolls into the crit threat as normal, and the critical damage minus the base damage goes to the wizard. If someone is enabling you to do more DPS, thats THEIR DPS. Where do bards fall in the max DPS pecking order now, spreadsheet gamers? How about stun focused monks?

There would also be a massive deduction as a ratio of how many times you died, and a slight reduction for how many times you needed to be healed, because hey, your toon might be max DPS, but if we have to sacrifice a group slot for a healer to keep that toon propped up hes now fighting for 2 slots worth of DPS, right?

Are having two battle cleric type THF eSOS divines in the group better or worse on the pixelated self-esteem-o-meter DPS-wise than having 1 busted out raw DPS kensai who cant wipe its own arse healing wise + 1 HealBot® babysitter to keep the kensai propped up? Whats the score there? Inquiring minds want to know.

One thing is for certain. The min maxers and one trick pony builds wouldnt be able to brag about self worth using the Chai® brand group-net-worth-o-meter to back their antics up with. The person who built the AC based exploiter variant and soloed VOD with it on the other hand, would have a very high rating.

[MrWizard]

It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

I also think that this would be a relatively easy coding change, as there is already a combat log telling me everything that is happening, and a change to program that just adds that damage up doesnt seem too complex. I may be wrong though. (if this is a complex coding change, then it isnt really worth it)

Kill count can mean nothing, as can damage count.

So someone stuns or holds something and someone else auto crits it to death, who really did the deed...? The team did.

And so on for many fights and battles. Trips, stuns, holds, cripples, destructions, and so many very important factors or 'team work' to kill mobs.

Aggro management keeps party from being overwhelmed. Aggro manager gets no kills but keeps party in a nice stable battle they can win. Kill count 0, Party count 100%.

It would be nice to see tabulations of what you did and did not do, but at this point I am sure the designers have shelved any thoughts of it.

[Mr_Ed7]

It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

I also think that this would be a relatively easy coding change, as there is already a combat log telling me everything that is happening, and a change to program that just adds that damage up doesnt seem too complex. I may be wrong though. (if this is a complex coding change, then it isnt really worth it)

Sounds more like someone is concerned with the size of their penne pasta...

Since it is not the best-ignore it .
It does not need to be replaced...I would not mind if it was added.

While we are at it lets keep track of how much the CLERIC healed you!

[Optimistic_Guardian]

It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

I also think that this would be a relatively easy coding change, as there is already a combat log telling me everything that is happening, and a change to program that just adds that damage up doesnt seem too complex. I may be wrong though. (if this is a complex coding change, then it isnt really worth it)

There are some people that won't want to be judge because the character is not the best... or they don't rush every monster to get first damage\kill. Doesn't seem like bad idea but I've been in dungeon fighting mobs behind the front line to protect the casters(depends where you are when doing all that dmg). IT Might not have the same amount of kills or dmg in those circumstances. Although I was much more appreciated by the team then the power player who ran off to soloing the quest.
After this will have to put in a count for the amount healed by clerics. And next thing you know no one will want trap rogues, bards and paladins, intimitanks etc. Sound great (sarcasm).

/Re not signed.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Kill count can mean nothing, as can damage count.

So someone stuns or holds something and someone else auto crits it to death, who really did the deed...? The team did.

And so on for many fights and battles. Trips, stuns, holds, cripples, destructions, and so many very important factors or 'team work' to kill mobs.

Aggro management keeps party from being overwhelmed. Aggro manager gets no kills but keeps party in a nice stable battle they can win. Kill count 0, Party count 100%.

It would be nice to see tabulations of what you did and did not do, but at this point I am sure the designers have shelved any thoughts of it.

I concur. I tried to make this argument couple of times earlier in this thread. You cannot have any individual meaningful metrics in a group-based game. The only meaningful number for any one as an individual melee would be to hit a training dummy while completely unbuffed.