Half-Elf Ranger or Human

[Luckyjack1983]

I am preparing to TR my pure Human Ranger, who is a DPS machine. I want to know if I will lose a lot by making him a Half-Elf next life, Any help would be appreciated.

[bryanmeerkat]

I am preparing to TR my pure Human Ranger, who is a DPS machine. I want to know if I will lose a lot by making him a Half-Elf next life, Any help would be appreciated.

Well for me you would have to ask what you would gain by going half-elf . COuld you give a little more info on the build you where planning on going with .

Human obviously would hava an extra feat and 20 more skill points . But depending on your build the half elf dillitente may or may not offer you something worth trading that for ?

[FoxCourier]

Look at it in ways of potential gain vs. potential loss.

Potential Loss (easiest to quantify): 1 feat, access to Human-only Enhancements, ~20 skill points.

Potential Gain (hardest to quantify): Half-elf enhancements, and the Dilettante feat/enhancement line.

What can you possibly gain?
1) Barbarian - +1 Constitution and +20HP via Barbarian Toughness, and DR3/- (12ap)
2) Fighter - +1 Strength and Armor Mastery II (+2 Max Dex to armor), plus maybe SB/Trip/Sunder enhancements (8+AP)
3) Rogue - +1 Dexterity and +3d6 Sneak Attack (8AP) (Technically 11AP with Trap Sense for +4 saves vs. Traps)
4) Anything Else - You lose potential build points by spending excess in areas (Wisdom, Charisma, Intelligence) that you really don't have much of a reason to as a Ranger, but can gain extra wand/scroll access (Cleric/Favored Soul, Bard, Sorcerer/Wizard, Paladin) and some other benefits.

You also keep Human Adaptability (and get Elven Dexterity if you want it, but it they don't stack), Human Improved Recovery, and Human Versatility.

Worth it to you? That's your call - it really depends on what you're going to do with your build. Will it maximize your DPS? Again, maybe - that depends on what you're doing.

[Luckyjack1983]

Well for me you would have to ask what you would gain by going half-elf . COuld you give a little more info on the build you where planning on going with .

Human obviously would hava an extra feat and 20 more skill points . But depending on your build the half elf dillitente may or may not offer you something worth trading that for ?

Right, sorry, I have a Tempest Rgr, I'm going for Temp 4 this life, I plan to start with max Dex, probably 16 Con, 14 Str, 12 or 10 Cha, and 12 or 14 Wis, depending. I am also going to use a +2 Wis, Con, and Dex tome at level 7.
I use Khopeshes, Spot, UMD, Wild Emp, Spot I haven't taken any action points on though, and doubt I will next life. I hope that's enough, sorry, can't think of anymore.

[Therigar]

Should be an interesting build.

Also, that max DEX and khopesh thing. Easy to see how you'd be looking at being a DPS machine.

[bryanmeerkat]

Right, sorry, I have a Tempest Rgr, I'm going for Temp 4 this life, I plan to start with max Dex, probably 16 Con, 14 Str, 12 or 10 Cha, and 12 or 14 Wis, depending. I am also going to use a +2 Wis, Con, and Dex tome at level 7.
I use Khopeshes, Spot, UMD, Wild Emp, Spot I haven't taken any action points on though, and doubt I will next life. I hope that's enough, sorry, can't think of anymore.

If i was you and going purely on a dps perspective the sneak attack damage would be a useful addition depending on what feat you have to gice up to get it . You would also though need to adjust a little your playstyle to incorporate the sneak damage but that may make it more intresting than not doing it .

Foxcourier has a list of your best options there and all of those will replace your bonus human feat if you go Half-elf .

I dont think it will likely make your charachter any better or worse really

[Therigar]

DEX and khopesh don't synergize. DEX and rapiers, yeah that works. STR and khopesh, yeah that works too. But, DEX and khopesh?

Wizard or sorcerer dilettante by giving the ability to use arcane wands might have some value. Certainly wand buffed blurs and stoneskins (and shield until Tempest III) would be useful.

[bryanmeerkat]

DEX and khopesh don't synergize. DEX and rapiers, yeah that works. STR and khopesh, yeah that works too. But, DEX and khopesh?

Wizard or sorcerer dilettante by giving the ability to use arcane wands might have some value. Certainly wand buffed blurs and stoneskins (and shield until Tempest III) would be useful.

Khopesh synergises with everything and if you have UMD planned then Wiz or Sor dil is overkill .

[wax_on_wax_off]

Right, sorry, I have a Tempest Rgr, I'm going for Temp 4 this life, I plan to start with max Dex, probably 16 Con, 14 Str, 12 or 10 Cha, and 12 or 14 Wis, depending. I am also going to use a +2 Wis, Con, and Dex tome at level 7.
I use Khopeshes, Spot, UMD, Wild Emp, Spot I haven't taken any action points on though, and doubt I will next life. I hope that's enough, sorry, can't think of anymore.

I have no idea why you would max dexterity on a khopesh user. Well, I have no idea why you would max dexterity on any ranger build.

If you actually want to be a "DPS machine" then go strength based. If you want to go ranger in the second life then consider as well as a change in race a change in build as well, strength based 18 ranger / 1 rogue / 1 monk is a very potent build. Half-elf with dilettante: barbarian would make this a very survivable character (though I wouldn't choose this dilettante feat, I would always go for DPS).

If you want to stay pure then half-elf and rogue dilettante will be very good for DPS, add strength based and you will do fine.

[bryanmeerkat]

What does the rogue level in the exploiter build do ?

[Cairo]

I have no idea why you would max dexterity on a khopesh user. Well, I have no idea why you would max dexterity on any ranger build.

If you actually want to be a "DPS machine" then go strength based. If you want to go ranger in the second life then consider as well as a change in race a change in build as well, strength based 18 ranger / 1 rogue / 1 monk is a very potent build. Half-elf with dilettante: barbarian would make this a very survivable character (though I wouldn't choose this dilettante feat, I would always go for DPS).

If you want to stay pure then half-elf and rogue dilettante will be very good for DPS, add strength based and you will do fine.

I couldnt help but wonder if the OP's "max dex" comment was actually a poorly-stated "max dex that I need for the TWF chain", but, if he was maxing dex at 15 (with a +2 dex tome @ 7), his Str would prolly be higher..

so I think the poor fellow is confused.

Id also suggest considering a splash of monk.

[FoxCourier]

What does the rogue level in the exploiter build do ?

Skill access (UMD, Open Lock, Disable Device), Rogue Haste I, Sneak Attack Training I, aaand 1d6 Sneak Attack.

Think that's everything. May have missed something.

[bryanmeerkat]

Skill access (UMD, Open Lock, Disable Device), Rogue Haste I, Sneak Attack Training I, aaand 1d6 Sneak Attack.

Think that's everything. May have missed something.

And the monk splash is just for AC ? I cant see it being for stances due to weapon centering ?

[FoxCourier]

And the monk splash is just for AC ? I cant see it being for stances due to weapon centering ?

That and a free Monk feat is all I can think of (I mean, they do get a free feat with all that), as well as the increased saving throws (+2 to everything).

[SeqenenreTao]

What does the rogue level in the exploiter build do ?

Taking Rouge at level 1 give (8+int mod)x4 skill points, just super for boosting that UMD score, among others, like jump and balance (I hate getting knocked down and staying down, just so embarrassing). It also gives you access to some Rouge enhancements (if you want em), like Sneak Attack training for an extra 1d6 ummphh.

...and it makes you bad ass wiff da laydies.

2 cents.

[SeqenenreTao]

I couldnt help but wonder if the OP's "max dex" comment was actually a poorly-stated "max dex that I need for the TWF chain", but, if he was maxing dex at 15 (with a +2 dex tome @ 7), his Str would prolly be higher..

so I think the poor fellow is confused.

Id also suggest considering a splash of monk.

Dex requirements are bypassed with tempest, all TWF feats are bestowed automatically-like

another 2 cents.

Edit: Funny this thread came up, I'll be TRing Alepheus into a Human Tempest, however, modelled after Tihocan char, Ranger18/Rogue1/Fighter1. Fighter gives you the extra Feat and some b!tchin enhancements, 2 extra HP, and some automatic proficiencies if you want flexibility at times; Monk gives gives you a Mr. Spock neck pinch and a couple saving throw bonuses (which isn't bad for Will), however Monk also takes away 1 BAB which is non-gooder.

Okily dokily neighbour?

Oh...and go here if you hadn't already www.ddowiki.com

[Therigar]

Khopesh synergises with everything and if you have UMD planned then Wiz or Sor dil is overkill .

I've heard ignorance is bliss.

Khopesh depends on STR for its "to hit" numbers. Maximizing DEX doesn't contribute to this. If the character does not invest enough into STR to hit reliably -- which at end game is 2+ on all but epic content -- then the theoretical advantage in damage that khopesh gives is lost because of the inability to hit the target.

So, any thought that puts max DEX together with khopesh shows a lack of insight into DDO.

Maximizing DEX at character creation is exceptionally foolish. It uses too many build points without gaining significant value. The only reason to do so is lack of understanding about the game. To do that and also think that a character will rely on khopesh as the primary melee weapon is embarrassing.

A player who plans to use khopeshes should be talking about maximizing STR and should be looking at DEX in terms of "what is the least I can have and still qualify the TWF line?" As a ranger the answer to that question is, "What is the starting DEX of the race you are planning to use?" A khopesh using DPS machine should be all STR and CON with almost no thought to any other stat.

If a player is not going to splash monk and work on a DEX/WIS synergy for ~70+ AC then they might as well ignore AC numbers. That translates into ignoring DEX just like they will ignore WIS.

An argument can be made for taking less than max STR or CON and putting some build points into other stats. But, in general the value of doing this is lost at L20 where the primary focus of any Tempest build is on DPS (a product of STR) and survivability (a product of HP via CON).

Probability is that a STR/CON build will have trouble qualifying a wizard or sorcerer dilettante. The point about UMD and utility of either may be moot. However, guaranteed wand use for things like blur, stoneskin and (until Tempest III) shield may over-ride the ability to probably use those items at L20 with UMD boosts. UMD's utility is really a late level value and comes as an after-the-fact help (or sometimes as an emergency help).

Personally, if I were thinking about this type of a build I'd go half-elf with STR 17, CON 18, INT 13 using all 34 points. Increase STR every 4 levels, use ranger and half-elf enhancements to boost DEX to 13. Plan on items and exceptional bonuses along with tomes. Take the wizard dilettante for immediate wand use. Skills probably don't include UMD. I'd favor balance, heal, hide, move silently, jump, swim, tumble, spot.... More there than can be covered with the 13 INT.

[bryanmeerkat]

I've heard ignorance is bliss.

Khopesh depends on STR for its "to hit" numbers. Maximizing DEX doesn't contribute to this. If the character does not invest enough into STR to hit reliably -- which at end game is 2+ on all but epic content -- then the theoretical advantage in damage that khopesh gives is lost because of the inability to hit the target.

Well Maximising dex wont make rapiers any better either and thats what I was refering to when i said khopesh synergises better with everything . ( finese is an option but a stupid one )
With a Greensteel and full ranger bab to hit shouldnt be a prob even with a gimpy strength , and if you are hitting on a 2 having a khopesh is always preferable to anything else .( exclude auto-crit situatiomns_)

[wax_on_wax_off]

I was thinking if I was TR'ing and had a charisma skills GS item and other stuff to get UMD up I'd skip the rogue splash and go 1 fighter / 1 monk. Half-elf gives 3d6 sneak attack damage anyway so the main thing that you miss out on is trap skills (only necessary if you are so inclined) and UMD (but you can get it up high enough on cross class skill max anyway).

[bryanmeerkat]

I was thinking if I was TR'ing and had a charisma skills GS item and other stuff to get UMD up I'd skip the rogue splash and go 1 fighter / 1 monk. Half-elf gives 3d6 sneak attack damage anyway so the main thing that you miss out on is trap skills (only necessary if you are so inclined) and UMD (but you can get it up high enough on cross class skill max anyway).

In that situation id be tempted to go 2 monk /18 ranger , I cant see much the fighter gives that monk 2 wouldn't with added evasion