Half-Elf Ranger or Human

[Therigar]

My fighter isn't pure and has a evasion so it really wasn't a fair example. He also breaks 700 HP at times so he's really hard to kill.

If your goal is max-DPS with Khopeshes don't build a ranger! Fighter is a much better choice. If you want some utility go Fighter 12/Rogue 7/Whatever 1.

Rangers are about max-utility and you lose way too much with the starting stats you propose. The Exploiter is better for this, slightly less damage (works out to less than 2%) than a starting 18 STR ranger and you gain SO much more.

LOL, I thought this might be the case.

OTOH, it isn't me looking for a build. It is the original poster whose criteria includes: ranger, Tempest, human or half-elf, DPS machine, max DEX and khopesh.

I'm just pointing out that DEX doesn't fit into that discussion. Max DPS out of a ranger comes with max STR, there is no sense in max DEX when using khopesh, the most DEX you need is 11 (and even that can be lower if you are willing to wait on when you take the Tempest enhancements).

[NaturalHazard]

Obviously you think only upper level. What's a character doing when they're L1-10?

As for shield clickies, it is 1 minute vs 6 or more minutes depending on the caster level. It is a significant difference.

Then again, you have all the answers so let's all just follow the cookie cutter and not think for ourself....

I have all the answers? where did I say that? stop putting words in my mouth.


and isnt it annoying to find out your wasted a feat to use stuff you find that your already getting later on?

levels 1-10? they are that hard that you need arcane wands? I blasted through those levels with no troubles without arcane wands. But seeing as its so vital now....... yes it calls for a feat.

[NaturalHazard]

LOL, I thought this might be the case.

OTOH, it isn't me looking for a build. It is the original poster whose criteria includes: ranger, Tempest, human or half-elf, DPS machine, max DEX and khopesh.

I'm just pointing out that DEX doesn't fit into that discussion. Max DPS out of a ranger comes with max STR, there is no sense in max DEX when using khopesh, the most DEX you need is 11 (and even that can be lower if you are willing to wait on when you take the Tempest enhancements).

yeah he wants a dps machine and you suggest taking the wizard dilly and mising out on the 3d6 rogue sneak attack?

[FoxCourier]

I have read what you all said and realize my dex/str mistake, fortunately, I am about to TR so I can fix the problem for good. The crazy thing is, even with this mistake I've been doing some great damage, so I'm looking forward to him as a proper tempest. Thank you all.

Cheers, mate. :3 Hope the second round on your ranger is just as successful as the first sounds!

...Conversation does seem to have segued into a bit of an argument and less a debate, on a tangential note. S'amazing what happens when you go to sleep. :/

[LunaCee]

My take on it would be a Half-Elf 18/1/1

Take a rogue level for the UMD, the rogue haste boost, the +3 to sneak attack damage.
Take the Rogue dilettante for the additional 2d6 sneak attack damage you can get via enhancements.
And if you have the goggles from HoX to go with that... a resulting 3d6+11 SA damage is quite tasty.

As for the second splash? Monk or Fighter depending on just what you are trying to do.

[Therigar]

yeah he wants a dps machine and you suggest taking the wizard dilly and mising out on the 3d6 rogue sneak attack?

My biggest concern in the discussion is to clarify that DEX is, almost, a dump stat and should be set at the absolute lowest starting number possible while still qualifying the Tempest PrE. For this build's purposes that is 11, which gets enough DEX to qualify the PrE and still results in a reasonable base reflex save.

My thoughts regarding wizard as opposed to rogue dilettante has to do with various utility to be gained via arcane wands. That may not fit in with the whole build concept if we are really focusing on max DPS and that is fine. I'm more than happy to concede the dilettante feat to rogue.

I did post this:

The only discussion should be about the dilettante choice.

Rogue has some benefit and if taken it means INT can drop to 8. That is 5 build points to work with. If HP is the concern then you adjust stats to 18, 10, 18, 8, 8, 8 and hold off on Tempest until you eat a +3 tome. Or, more likely, you run with 18, 13, 17, 8, 8, 8.

For me it isn't about which dilettante feat is chosen, it is about not overvaluing DEX.

Because the trend on the forums is more and more to plan builds for their L20 potential and to ignore what takes place before that it is not unreasonable to optimize with the 18, 10, 18, 8, 8, 8 stats. It relies on the same logic that dismisses wand use for shield, blur, stoneskin prior to getting a surplus of clickies or that ignores the duration differences between clickies and wands based on caster levels.

That logic essentially goes like this, "Levels 1 thru 19 are the necessary evil that you suffer before getting to L20." The consequence of this thinking is that what happens along the way is unimportant. After all, if you are even mildly competent you'll just blow thru them.

levels 1-10? they are that hard that you need arcane wands? I blasted through those levels with no troubles without arcane wands.

That same disdane for players looking for alternatives to make the levels before 20 easier, if applied fairly, means that there is no justification for worrying about Tempest PrE until the build hits its final, mature, form.

If we take that view then certainly we go for the rogue dilettante. But, we also go for the 10 starting DEX and accept that we must use a +3 tome while taking Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack as our last 3 feats.

It further means that we accept the current ranger capstone as ineffective for the build's need and splash monk. And, if we're sold on the rogue dilettante, we take a second splash of either monk (again) or fighter. That means we have thru L17 to eat that +3 tome and don't need any of the feats until levels 18-20.

The point now is that you cannot have it both ways. You cannot ridicule ideas geared towards making play easier during the levels getting to 20 and also insist on stat distributions and enhancements that have the same effect. Either we are concerned with how the character plays at each and every level or we are only concerned with how it plays at L20.

I'm good with either, so you pick. If it is concern over how it plays at each and every level then a wizard dilettante has something to offer. If it is concern over how it plays at L20 then waiting on Tempest until then has something to offer.

Either way, it represents thinking geared towards the goal set by the original poster.

[Xalerwons]

Skill access (UMD, Open Lock, Disable Device), Rogue Haste I, Sneak Attack Training I, aaand 1d6 Sneak Attack.

Think that's everything. May have missed something.

You forgot it also makes a lot of level 20 pure rogues butt hurt about the disarming traps club not being class exclusive.

[Cold_Stele]

HElf with Rogue Dilly is second best DPS race in the game.

That is the most absurd thing I've read on the forums in months.

...

Your assertion is wrong.

So what would YOU say is the second best DPS race in the game?

HOrc beats everything else in game.

After that I'll take 3d6 SA over +3 (WF PA) anytime. HElf also has higher Str than WF.

HElf synergies very well with Kensai too with 10 Ftr Haste Boosts running simultaneously with 10 HV Damage Boosts.

And as for different races being better situationally, until we get to situationally change race, you only get to pick one.

[NaturalHazard]

So what would YOU say is the second best DPS race in the game?

HOrc beats everything else in game.

After that I'll take 3d6 SA over +3 (WF PA) anytime. HElf also has higher Str than WF.

HElf synergies very well with Kensai too with 10 Ftr Haste Boosts running simultaneously with 10 HV Damage Boosts.

And as for different races being better situationally, until we get to situationally change race, you only get to pick one.

Hey how does helf have higher str than warforged? im not disagreeing with you, but I dont know why myself, is it something to do with the dil feats?

[FoxCourier]

Hey how does helf have higher str than warforged? im not disagreeing with you, but I dont know why myself, is it something to do with the dil feats?

Warforged don't have a Strength increase. Half-elves, however, can get +1 Strength via Adaptability (same as humans), giving them a functional +1 strength advantage over without factoring in further increases through Dilettante that they otherwise wouldn't get (Fighter gets a further +1).

Can't think of anything outside of that, though, and the Power Attack increase is +3 for TWF for Warforged (versus the +1 Adaptability Strength and 3d6 SA for a Half-elf with Rogue Dilettante, or just +2 Strength for one with the Fighter Dilettante... Yeah, I'm guessing we're talking about the former).

I don't really see anything else for WF that applies for a TWF scenario (which I presume is the point, as I can't fathom a reason to do otherwise for melee on a Ranger).

[Cold_Stele]

Yep that's right, HElf can take Human Str +1.

Also HElves vs Human - Humans in reality don't get an extra feat either. If, as a Human, you could take a feat that would give you up to 3d6 SA damage, you'd be crazy not to choose that, right?

[grodon9999]

So what would YOU say is the second best DPS race in the game?

HOrc beats everything else in game.

After that I'll take 3d6 SA over +3 (WF PA) anytime. HElf also has higher Str than WF.

HElf synergies very well with Kensai too with 10 Ftr Haste Boosts running simultaneously with 10 HV Damage Boosts.

And as for different races being better situationally, until we get to situationally change race, you only get to pick one.

Do they have the APs to make it work?

[Cold_Stele]

Do they have the APs to make it work?

Can't speak for Rgr, but on my Human Kensai III (which is very prereq AP intensive) I'd have to drop HV4->3 or EAB 2->1 and Racial Toughness 2->1 so yeh AP are available to make it work. 3d6 SA is only 6AP!

Still has FHB4, FStr3, HStr1, FTough2/3(?), FSB1(?) & Healing Amp1.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

UMD (but you can get it up high enough on cross class skill max anyway).

"High Enough" to me is no-fail Heal scroll. -- for you it seems to be to use RR gear
So Rogue splash is mandatory for these types of builds where I want UMD
my 12 Ranger/7 Fighter/1 Monk ranger wouldn't use umd, but my 18/1/1 does

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Wow.... for all the talk of the exploiter I’m surprised no one has suggested a Half-Elf 1 Rogue/18 Ranger/1 Fighter or Barb with the Monk Dilettante.

The 13 stat score you need to qualify for a Fred implanted dilettante feat can be achieved with tomes. (11 base +2 Tome +7 worth of items with a +1 enhancement option) It gets you the WIS to AC bonus, and access to more healing amplification!

A Half-Elf 18 Ranger/1 Rogue/1 Fighter with Monk dilettante would be down 1 AC from a straight out 18/1/1Monk

A minor thing indeed but still notable.

It would be down 2 AC if the Exploiter had access to +2 stat ship buffs

[grodon9999]

A Half-Elf 18 Ranger/1 Rogue/1 Fighter with Monk dilettante would be down 1 AC from a straight out 18/1/1Monk

A minor thing indeed but still notable.

It would be down 2 AC if the Exploiter had access to +2 stat ship buffs

3 if you add in Yugo pots.

4 if you add in +7 wisdom item or +3 tome with the +1 EXC WIS from the Tempest ring.

Starting to add up now?

[NaturalHazard]

Warforged don't have a Strength increase. Half-elves, however, can get +1 Strength via Adaptability (same as humans), giving them a functional +1 strength advantage over without factoring in further increases through Dilettante that they otherwise wouldn't get (Fighter gets a further +1).

Can't think of anything outside of that, though, and the Power Attack increase is +3 for TWF for Warforged (versus the +1 Adaptability Strength and 3d6 SA for a Half-elf with Rogue Dilettante, or just +2 Strength for one with the Fighter Dilettante... Yeah, I'm guessing we're talking about the former).

I don't really see anything else for WF that applies for a TWF scenario (which I presume is the point, as I can't fathom a reason to do otherwise for melee on a Ranger).

ok they get human adaptability as well as elven dex right?

[grodon9999]

ok they get human adaptability as well as elven dex right?

It's either/or

[NaturalHazard]

It's either/or

elves just get no love, and the only ones who even get a lil love are only half elves. Do the devs hate elves or something?

[grodon9999]

elves just get no love, and the only ones who even get a lil love are only half elves. Do the devs hate elves or something?

The issue is if what elves brought to the table was still of values come end-game they'd be fine. My Elf TRing form 1-19 was AWESOME, now I only play her when my other mooks are on timer.