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  1. #81
    Community Member Brennie's Avatar
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    Has anyone mentioned a "monster" variant?

    2fighter/18 ranger. Nets you +1 strength via fighter enhancement, fighter haste boost, class toughness enhancement, and 2 feats (plus a smattering of hitpoints from fighter's higher base). You do however lose you monk benefits and UMD from rogue. This also lets you hit a round 20 BaB, which i believe also means a small attack speed increase at cap.

    Toss on rogue dillentante and 6 AP later you have an extra 3d6 sneak attack, and i say you have a pretty mean Half elf tempest machine.

  2. #82
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold_Stele View Post
    So what would YOU say is the second best DPS race in the game?

    HOrc beats everything else in game.

    After that I'll take 3d6 SA over +3 (WF PA) anytime. HElf also has higher Str than WF.

    HElf synergies very well with Kensai too with 10 Ftr Haste Boosts running simultaneously with 10 HV Damage Boosts.

    And as for different races being better situationally, until we get to situationally change race, you only get to pick one.
    An earlier poster observed that this is the ranger forum and you might be thinking only in terms of the ranger class. When I read your statement I took it to mean any class -- that is, regardless of character class half-elf is the second highest DPS race in the game. I say that is false. In fact, I was not convinced that half-orc was the highest DPS race but I've had to conceed that point.

    As the thread has taken this tangent of best DPS race I've questioned both your assertion that half-elf is the second best DPS race and the assertion of others that half-orc is the best DPS race.

    I proposed that halfling rogue would give higher DPS.

    This was challenged and we looked at half-orc PA enhancements and STR advantage. This showed that when using keen khopeshes the half-orc would do 10 more damage in a 20 attack sequence than the halfling.

    Half-elf cannot achieve this strength and power-attack advantage. They also do not gain advantage from the rogue dilettante if taking the rogue character class. To quote the wiki, This does not stack with the Rogue Sneak Attack class feature.

    We know that the 14d6 rogue sneak attack causes more damage than any other attack in the game when all other factors are equal. Halflings gain +8 damage over any other race on sneak attacks. Half-orcs only beat halflings if they are capped rogues and have the full PA attack enhancements.

    Therefore, with no uncertainty, the racial sequence is half-orc, halfling, warforged (because of the power attack enhancements), human/half-elf, drow/dwarf/elf.

    Now, if you are discussing ranger only -- as was suggested by another poster -- and half-orc beats half-elf then it could be that warforged also beats half-elf. I haven't worked that out and it really doesn't matter. Why not? Because your assertion was that half-elf is the second best DPS race which is easily shown to be false simply by looking at the rogue character class.

  3. #83
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    We know that the 14d6 rogue sneak attack causes more damage than any other attack in the game when all other factors are equal.


    All other factors are equal means that comparisons allow for maximum STR including racial, feat and enhancement differences. Gear and external buffs are the same.

    14d6 is an average of 49 points of additional damage on every attack. Any rogue adds +12 damage per sneak attack. A halfling adds 8 damage on top of that. That means every attack by a L20 halfling rogue does an extra 69 points of damage.

    I always look at what happens in a chain of 20 attacks where 1 attack always misses and the other 19 always hit. For me this is easier than trying to determine how many attacks occur per second. It is also easier than trying to determine how many attacks occur in 5 minutes.

    There is a minor flaw in calculating this way introduced by differences in attack speeds. As a result the actual STR numbers that I will discuss next might be lower by 10-20% depending on the amount of difference in attack speeds.

    Those actual numbers can be calculated, I am just too lazy to do that much extra work.

    So, let's look at the math for 19 successful hits: 69 sneak damage * 19 hits = 1311 damage. To get the same or higher damage any other character would need to have over 48 points of additional STR damage.

    48 bonus STR damage * 15 non-crits + 48 bonus STR * 4 crits * 3 crit multiplier = 1296. To get 48 more points of STR damage takes an additional 96 STR. So, a halfling rogue with a fully buffed STR of 40 only loses the DPS battle if the competing build has a fully buffed STR of 136. At 136 STR the competing build loses out to the 40 STR rogue by 15 points of damage. To win they have to buff to 138 STR.

    Note that power attack equates to +2 STR per PA point so half-orc and warforged only need to buff to 132....

    The only build that beats the halfling rogue is the half-orc rogue with the full PA enhancement line. That is because rogue builds don't need to rely on STR alone -- they get to include their own sneak damage.

    In that calculation the halfling is 8*19=152 ahead of every other rogue due to the cunning/guile enhancement line. Half-orcs due to their higher STR and PA line are +6 damage per weapon hit. 15*6 + 4*6*3 = 162. If they were +5 damage (like WF) damage drops to 135.

    No other build can come close to this damage. So,

    Highest DPS race and class is half-orc rogue.
    Second highest DPS race and class is halfling rogue.
    Third highest DPS race and class is warforged rogue.

    Final note:

    Total bonus damage needed to exceed halfling rogue SA with weapons damage is >69. That translates to >138 added STR.

    For paladins or rangers (or any other class for that matter) using special attacks or against favored enemies or adding in burst damage due to short term class boosts calculate the STR equivalent by noting that each additional point of damage reduces the STR difference by 2 points. For example, see above where half-orc and warforged PA enhancements give +3 damage per hit which is equivalent to them having +6 STR.

    So, if a class were to have some situational case where it generated an extra 20 points of damage that would reduce the STR needed from 138 to 98 for as long as that situation existed. This can occur in short-term situations thru power boosts or come as a result of class ability, such as a ranger's bonus damage against favored enemy or a paladin's bonus damage against evil.
    Last edited by Therigar; 01-15-2011 at 10:13 PM.

  4. #84
    The Hatchery Syllph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    [B][I]No other build can come close to this damage. So,
    Allow me to finish this sentence,

    So, the rogue takes the aggro and all the other calculations you just mentioned go out the window. This works lovely when they are held and when fort is 0%. This kind of argument has been bled to death. It works only for a few moments then it's gone plain and simple.

    This link, on the other hand, shows a well geared Barbarian -with- aggro doing great damage and not needing to wait for a held 0 fort mob.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq5JfZ3lC70
    (For those who are paranoid and don't like links look up youtube "DDO Epic geared barb" uploaded by user joepace01 Argonessian server.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    [B][I]Total bonus damage needed to exceed halfling rogue SA with weapons damage is >69. That translates to >138 added STR.
    All this talk about 1000 damage this, 1000 damage that rogue is kind of silly after watching this. You be the judge. He does 900 points in one swing. He does not have the absurdly silly 138 STR you talk about. You really have no concept of numbers or are just making them up to support your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    [B][I]48 bonus STR damage * 15 non-crits + 48 bonus STR * 4 crits * 3 crit multiplier = 1296
    Let's recalculate shall we: 1 Hit 900 points of damage. 2 hits 1800... oh wait ;D

    Honestly, it would make me laugh if you sent him a message telling him to reroll as a rogue to do more damage. I think -that- my friend would be the most absurd thing I've seen on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    [B][I]I take it back, this is the most absurd thing I've read on the forums
    Last edited by Syllph; 01-16-2011 at 01:16 AM.

  5. #85
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    As the thread has taken this tangent of best DPS race I've questioned both your assertion that half-elf is the second best DPS race and the assertion of others that half-orc is the best DPS race.

    I proposed that halfling rogue would give higher DPS.

    Therefore, with no uncertainty, the racial sequence is half-orc, halfling, warforged (because of the power attack enhancements), human/half-elf, drow/dwarf/elf.
    Halfling Rogues do more DPS than HElven ones, that doesn't make Halflings the second best DPS race in DDO.

    Halfling in any class that has persistent DPS has -3 Str and -2.5 avg SA damage compared to HElf.

    Your statement is as absurd as your previous one that HOrcs weren't the best.
    Last edited by Cold_Stele; 01-16-2011 at 04:06 AM.

  6. #86
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold_Stele View Post
    Halfling Rogues do more DPS than HElven ones, that doesn't make Halflings the second best DPS race in DDO.

    Halfling in any class that has persistent DPS has -3 Str and -2.5 avg SA damage compared to HElf.

    Your statement is as absurd as your previous one that HOrcs weren't the best.
    If half-orc does more damage than halfling and halfling does more damage than half-elf then half-orc is best DPS race and halfing is second best DPS race.

    I can't imagine any event where the halfling beats the half-elf and isn't judged to be better.

    What is incumbant on you to show is that rogue is not the highest DPS class.
    Last edited by Therigar; 01-16-2011 at 02:14 PM.

  7. #87
    Community Member Arkadios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryanmeerkat View Post
    Well Maximising dex wont make rapiers any better either and thats what I was refering to when i said khopesh synergises better with everything . ( finese is an option but a stupid one )
    With a Greensteel and full ranger bab to hit shouldnt be a prob even with a gimpy strength , and if you are hitting on a 2 having a khopesh is always preferable to anything else .( exclude auto-crit situatiomns_)
    I *cough* swear rapiers get weapon finesse, maybe i'm wrong?

  8. #88
    The Hatchery Syllph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    What is incumbant on you to show is that rogue is not the highest DPS class.
    My previous youtube video again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq5JfZ3lC70

    Now your turn:

    Instead of your on-paper numbers, go grab Fraps link a video of a rogue doing better damage or go troll elsewhere. You've been on and on and we keep showing you that you're incorrect about this. Besides this is the Ranger forum go brag on the rogue forum where they can all say ooo-ahhhh to your believe that a rapier or dagger or whatever is better damage than a khopesh.

    If you can't find tangible evidence then you're wasting our time. This above video is tangible, verifiable and repeatable and even someone mathematically challenged can see the numbers clearly. Now it's you who need to show that Rogue -is- the highest DPS.

    This thread is so off topic...... sorry OP. this is neither about Humans nor Half-Elves but oddly trolls.......

  9. #89
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    If half-orc does more damage than halfling and halflind does more damage than half-elf then half-orc is best DPS race and halfing is second best DPS race.

    I can't imagine any event where the halfling beats the half-elf and isn't judged to be better.

    What is incumbant on you to show is that rogue is not the highest DPS class.
    I don't disagree, Rogue is SITUATIONALLY highest DPS. It isn't persistant DPS however. We're nearly 5 years into DDO, if Rogue DPS was that dependable, we'd all have deleted our Fighters, Rangers and Barbs years ago and everyone would be running arcanes, divines or a Rogue. We know that's blatantly untrue.

    Rogue is only class where HElf isn't better than Halfling. That doesn't stop HElf being the second best DPS race.

    Put it another way - Humans might make better Paladins than HOrcs. That doesn't make Humans the best DPS race in DDO.
    Last edited by Cold_Stele; 01-16-2011 at 02:03 PM.

  10. #90
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syllph View Post
    Honestly, it would make me laugh if you sent him a message telling him to reroll as a rogue to do more damage. I think -that- my friend would be the most absurd thing I've seen on the forums.
    I knew someone would bring up aggression. The answer is "threat reduction." The damage the rogue does generates 60% or less of the hate it should because of threat reduction. If the rogue doesn't have Subtle Backstabbing and Tharne's then they deserve the aggression. If they do and the barbarian can't hold aggression then the barbarian needs to reroll.

    Next,

    Halfling rogue using Min II khopesh w Good Burst, Acid and Acid Blast incorporating Bloodstone for seeker bonus to critical hits. Power attack.

    I picked the weapon configuration specifically because it is keen and gives the most added damage on critical hits.

    Comparison will be made to half-orc barbarian with bonus critical multiplier. I will give the halfling only a 3 multiplier and the half-orc a 7 multiplier. I will also give 3 more damage from power attack enhancements.

    In exchange the halfling rogue gets 14d6 sneak damage and +20 sneak damage from enhancements.

    Other damage is not calculated in because either I can't think of it or because it will come from gear that both could have and so cancels out.

    Damage for the rogue is 15(25+R) + 4[3(21.5+R) + 34.5] + 1311 where R is the rogue's damage from STR. Damage for the barbarian is 15(28+B) + 4[7(24.5+B) + 34.5] where B is the barbarian's damage from STR.

    I had written a previous response where I showed how each calculation was made but you'll just have to work out the math yourself since DDO forum lost that message.

    To make it easiest to explain without going into detail 15 is the number of normal hits, 4 the number of critical hits. 3 and 7 are the critical multipliers. 1311 is sneak damage applied only to the rogue's numbers. The other numbers are the non-STR damage due to weapon effects, PA and seeker. This means that the only differences in the two calculations are the value of R and B.

    I'm going to give the halfling rogue a STR of 40 which makes R = 15. I replace R in the rogue's calculation. Total rogue damage is 2487.

    So, 15(28+B) + 4[7(24.5+B) + 34.5] must be >= 2487 for the barbarian to do the same or more damage. Solve for B.

    420 + 15B + 4[206 + 7B] = 2487
    420 + 15B + 824 + 28B = 2487
    1244 + 43B = 2487
    43B = 1243
    B = 29

    For the barbarian to do more damage than the rogue his STR must be 98 (58 points higher than the rogue's 40).

    So, show me the barbarian build with a sustained 98 STR. Heck, show me a burst 98 STR.

    If you can do that then you have a build that can out DPS a 40 STR halfling rogue. And note, I didn't do anything special to get to 40 STR. 16 base + 5 stat increases + 6 item + 3 tome + 2 rage + 4 double Madstone + 1 ship buff + 3 exceptional gets me there.

    Note also that your barbarian has to be getting 7x criticals. That seems like a lot to me, but hey....

    As to your video. Note that 900 pops up on crits. Normal damage is <80. This means you are not really understanding what you are seeing.

  11. #91
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syllph View Post
    This thread is so off topic...... sorry OP. this is neither about Humans nor Half-Elves but oddly trolls.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Syllph View Post
    Besides this is the Ranger forum go brag on the rogue forum
    Listen, it isn't a troll and it isn't ignoring your pretty video. It is showing that rogues do more damage.

    This is to prove that the statment about half-elves being second best DPS race in the game is false.

    That statment stands alone and separate from the forum where it was made.

    I cannot help it if you do not like the evidence when it is in front of you. But, math doesn't lie.

    I cannot help it if you like visual information and your video. You are not seeing the truth when you are looking. If you were you would take note of all those hits that produce 60-80 points of damage instead of being wow'd by the 900 point criticals.

    If the filmed character were a halfling rogue built otherwise exactly the same and geared exactly the same, with the only differences being those forced on the character by race and class -- and if you could capture the bonus damage done on each hit for sneak attack -- the halfling would be doing more damage.

    That is what the math proves. I understand it is hard for you to get and you really want to believe what you think you see in the video. But you are wrong.

    I will tell you what I have not done, because it is a lot of math to do. I have not calculated the damage from off-hand attacks or double-strikes. The numbers I've shown are main-hand only.

    This would result in a much more complicated math. Because you are having trouble with the simple math it isn't worth trying to do the more complicated math.

    But, if I were to do that the barbarian would begin to see the STR requirement drop. How much I don't know. I'd need to run all the calculations over 100 combat sequences, adjust for 80% off-hand damage and calculate in 3% double-strike (or whatever double-strike number is current best possible).

    I'd also need some information that I do not have concerning the double-strike mechanism. I'd need to know if it proc's only an extra main-hand attack or if it also procs a chance at an extra off-hand attack.

    These are things I haven't looked into and they will result in changes to the math.

    However, back to your video. The barbarian is using a 2-handed weapon. That means the main-hand only calculation I did is valid. It also means that you can adjust the STR bonus based on that information, since STR bonus is doubled for THF.

    You now, however, have a problem because you have to give my rogue his off-hand attack. And, in the end you still lose.

    FWIW, on the human v half-elf for a ranger subject I've responded to that. On the tangent of half-elf being the second best DPS race, I've responded to that.

    I agree half-elf should be the choice for the ranger build.

    I've proven through math that halfling is the second best DPS race.

    Because of other poster's I've admitted that half-orc is the best DPS race (although I did so grudgingly ).

  12. #92
    The Hatchery Syllph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    As to your video. Note that 900 pops up on crits. Normal damage is <80. This means you are not really understanding what you are seeing.
    Note the <80 are grazing hits lol. Grazing.....hits.....

    So make a video of this rogue you're vaunting against the same epic mob and prove me wrong. Sorry but I'm not impressed that you can attack a held/stunned zero fort mob. Wow... it's really not impressive. Really. You also use your own system. The DDO community values DPS (Damage Per Second) You choose to use 20 hits minus one. Put your calculations back into the same system we all use and you'll find exactly why fewer people roll rogues. Heck I have a caster that can do 2500-3000 damage in one shot. Using your system I can completely ignore time and just say 19 shots 1 missing (Sure why not Polar Ray can miss) 2500x19 = MAX DPS in the GAME!!!! woooooooo!

    Ironically, you then turn on your own argument and say the video is invalid. Use your own system: count the first 19 hits and tell me the number. Bet you it's higher than the 1200 you said ;D I got to about 7 Before the number was well over 2000.

    You're tweaking your argument in your favor. We use DPS; you do not. This is a redundant argument at this point. I've asked three times now to either prove it with solid evidence or stop. You said in 19 hits your rogue can do about 1200 damage in ideal situations. I've proved in one hit a barb can do 900 in very non-ideal situations and then multiple 400s 700s on top.

    I'm sorry you don't like facts but your argument is baseless.
    Last edited by Syllph; 01-16-2011 at 02:56 PM.

  13. #93
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    In Therigar's own little magical realm Rogue's never lose their SA DPS. In reality we all know that's untrue.

    What just occured to me is that HElves get to use Bluff and Diplo twice as often, so can reduce the amount of aggro they pull more effectively.

    Less aggro=more DPS.

    HElf Rogue>Halfling Rogue? Yeh, maybe.

  14. #94
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold_Stele View Post
    I don't disagree, Rogue is SITUATIONALLY highest DPS. It isn't persistant DPS however. We're nearly 5 years into DDO, if Rogue DPS was that dependable, we'd all have deleted our Fighters, Rangers and Barbs years ago and everyone would be running arcanes, divines or a Rogue. We know that's blatantly untrue.

    Rogue is only class where HElf isn't better than Halfling. That doesn't stop HElf being the second best DPS race.

    Put it another way - Humans might make better Paladins than HOrcs. That doesn't make Humans the best DPS race in DDO.
    Ah, we are seeing the fine distinctions you now need to "win" the debate.

    But, it isn't a case-by-case discussion.

    One character class and build produces more DPS than any other. This is an absolute.

    One race when combined with that character class and build produces the most DPS. This is also an absolute.

    No character class and build produces the most DPS in every possible situation. These are the exceptions.

    I refuse to debate the exceptions because they represent situations outside of the norm. The only thing I can do when you show an exception is to say, "Yep, in that specific example you are right."

    I am sorry you've wasted 5 years of gaming. But, rogues do produce more DPS than any other character. That is just fact based on main-hand damage.

    As I note in replies above, this might falter in some comparisons as off-hand and double-strike are applied. One thing about DDO is that there are constant changes. I had to deal with one during this discussion when I realized my thinking on halfling rogues was wrong because of the introduction of half-orcs.

    From a pure math perspective, half-orc rogues out DPS halfling rogues. Didn't like it, but the math doesn't lie.

    So, why don't people run only rogues?

    Well, to start with you have to do some extreme min/maxing to get the type of character that I'm using for my example. Very few people are willing to build a rogue with maxed STR and enough DEX to qualify TWF. Too expensive in terms of build points and leaves nothing for other stats. You have to completely sacrifice INT, WIS and CHA.

    Alright, WIS and CHA are dump stats on rogues anyways. But most people have trouble dumping INT. That half-orc rogue that beats the halfling, he has to run with a 6 INT. Not a build most people are going to play. The halfling has to go with 8 INT and even in the rogue forums that draws a bit of scrutiny.

    So, to get the pure, ultimate DPS build means a huge investment and also a huge risk. The rogue hit point d6 means losing 120 HP minimum to a barbarian. Take into account the toughness enhancements and the rogue has serious squishy issues.

    It isn't about DPS, it is about other survivor factors -- primarily HP, but also in the case of barbarians DR -- and stat distribuitions so that other rogue class skills are reliable.

    As I ratchet down the min/max the rogue rapidly loses its advantage. And, because most players don't take the pure min/max risk their in-game experience -- both on their characters and on what they see other player's characters doing -- tells them that barbarians, fighter, rangers, etc. are the DPS leaders.

    And, in that sense they are.

    But, they are not the best possible.

    The best possible, at least without doing all the off-hand and double-strike calculations, is half-orc min/maxed rogue followed by halfling min/maxed rogue with max STR, least DEX to qualify TWF and remaining build points in CON.

  15. #95
    The Hatchery Syllph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    The best possible [Damage Dealer], at least without doing all the off-hand and double-strike calculations, is half-orc min/maxed rogue followed by halfling min/maxed rogue with max STR, least DEX to qualify TWF and remaining build points in CON.
    Go post that on the Barb forum. See how that goes for you.

  16. #96
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syllph View Post
    Use your own system: count the first 19 hits and tell me the number. Bet you it's higher than the 1200 you said ;D I got to about 7 Before the number was well over 2000.
    The problem is the setting.

    I can't tell for certain but it looks like the video uses an epic Sos. I also am not certain of what additional gear is equipped.

    My numbers are low. They are intentionally low because it is a lot of work to figure out additional sources of damage and apply them in each case.

    So it isn't meaningful that you can count 7 attacks producing 2000 points of damage.

    But, we are at a point where you are not wanting to change your view just as I am not. Some people are going to read your posts and conclude you must be right.

    Others will read mine and understand the limits on the comparisons leading them to conclude that I am right.

    The real issue is what I addressed just a bit ago, the min/max building and extreme gearing that is needed to make side-by-side comparisons. That leads people to draw their conclusions based on their in-game experiences.

    Those are legitimate for what they are.

    So, I'll leave this discussion with that thought and noting that we disagree.

  17. #97
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    You're aware all these calculations have already been done right? You're aware there are already DPS calculators? It's well known that Rogues *theoretically* have highest DPS.

    Just like it's already been proved those Min II Khops of yours are inferior to Lit IIs.

    What everyone else knows (apart from you it seems) is that this DPS is highly situational.

    Now stop boring everyone and go tickle an elemental on epic. If you can even land a hit on epic that is...
    Last edited by Cold_Stele; 01-16-2011 at 03:18 PM.

  18. #98
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syllph View Post
    Go post that on the Barb forum. See how that goes for you.
    Agreed.

    Put your money where your mouth is.

  19. #99
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold_Stele View Post
    In Therigar's own little magical realm Rogue's never lose their SA DPS. In reality we all know that's untrue.
    Winding this down because it isn't really going anywhere.

    But, you are right, rogues do lose their SA DPS. That happens why?

    Against Harry or similar it is because aggro is programmed to shift and cannot be held by any character. Not talking part 4 where you can intimitank Harry but part 5 where you cannot -- at least I've never seen or heard of it being done.

    Against other mobs it happens because the DPS of the rogue is HIGHER than the DPS of the other characters. Hello!

    This goes back to my point about hate management and the inability of other classes to hold aggression.

    It is an issue when you are intimitanking because it appears relatively easy to draw hate aggro. It should never be the case when hate tanking.

    And, of course, there are always those situations when you are facing multiple mobs whose aggro splits off to the highest priority target or where SA does not apply.

    But, if you are trying to argue rogues don't have highest DPS and want to discuss any case where the aggro shifts to them from some other character....

    Only happens if the rogue pulls more hate and that only happens if he's doing more DPS.

    So, your intimitank is gimp or your hate-tank is gimp -- or maybe, the rogue is gimp because it doesn't have proper hate reduction.

    But, it isn't because some other character is doing more DPS.

    The only way a rogue should lose their SA DPS is if they never had it. If the other builds can't pull the aggro off the rogue it is because they can't beat the rogue's DPS (overcome the hate aggro). Either way, the rogue's DPS in that group is still the highest.

  20. #100
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold_Stele View Post
    You're aware all these calculations have already been done right? You're aware there are already DPS calculators? It's well known that Rogues *theoretically* have highest DPS.

    Just like it's already been proved those Min II Khops of yours are inferior to Lit IIs.
    Yep, I know that. Just took a lot of work for you to admit it.

    Now, to put this to bed.

    Rogues theoretically have highest DPS. Half-orcs out DPS halflings. Halflings out DPS warforged. Warforged out DPS humans & half-elves.

    Thus, half-orcs are highest DPS race, halflings second, warforged third and humans/half-elves fourth.

    Have a nice afternoon.

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