Touch of Death Compromise

[DarkThoughts]

I would be happy with 500 Untyped damage per hit with a rare chance to do 1000 points of damage on a proc.

I would be thrilled with 500 Untyped damage per hit with a very rare chance to do 1500 points of damage on a double proc.

And I believe anything over 1500 points of damage should be removed from the equation.

Am I in the minority here?

[Therilith]

if you care about the power level of your team, why would you reduce his power level?? Thereby reducing your own teams power level?

Because he realizes that any characters or groups "power level" in this game is completely arbitrary and has to be carefully balanced against everything else for the game to remain fun?

Turbine could increase everyones DPS by 500% tomorrow. Would that make the game better? What if it only applied to fighters?

[Quikster]

Welcome to the same cost of Rise of the Phoenix and Void 4

Welcome to apples and oranges.

[KoboldKiller]

Because he realizes that any characters or groups "power level" in this game is completely arbitrary and has to be carefully balanced against everything else for the game to remain fun?

Turbine could increase everyones DPS by 500% tomorrow. Would that make the game better? What if it only applied to fighters?

Ah but it's acceptable to REDUCE the DPS of one class/build putting the others out front? Yup that sounds balanced especially considering nothing SIGNIFICANT was given to offset that DPS loss.

[Goldenadult79]

If that's the case, why are you envious when looking at barb and fighter damage?

Balance affects everyone.

Edit: changed to be more literal and less figurative. I forget sometimes that not everyone is American

find the post where I talked about fighters and barbarians and had "envy" of them?
The only mention of barbarians is used to illustrate the fact that changing ToD doesn't create balance in the first place. So claiming its a balance issue is a non-fact.

So you'd be ok with, for example, rangers being given the ability to kill every enemy in one hit with no save (effectively turning the rest of the party into useless pikers)?

Firstly, they can do that. maybe not without a save. Let me ask you this -again-. why does someone else killing something, while being on your same team, make you feel like a useless piker?

if you win the basketball game, are you going to run up tot e coach and ask him to "balance" the point guard so he doesnt score more points than you?

[Scraap]

And I believe anything over 1500 points of damage should be removed from the equation.

Am I in the minority here?

No, you're not really. Matter of fact, with that mentioned finisher, that 'above 1500' bit is entirely in the cards with the buff potential for neg energy. Of course, if I was supreme dictator of DDO, I might say instead of dropping the save, just drop the negative, and change the finisher to a fortitude debuff. Keeps it limited to the 1500, and lets multi-classers approach the DC by taking a few extra steps. But that is of course, crazy talk from a guy on a bit too much dayquil atm :P.

[KoboldKiller]

Welcome to the same cost of Rise of the Phoenix and Void 4

Did those 2 get nerfed as well?

Then there is no comparison is there?

[Goldenadult79]

Because he realizes that any characters or groups "power level" in this game is completely arbitrary and has to be carefully balanced against everything else for the game to remain fun?

Turbine could increase everyones DPS by 500% tomorrow. Would that make the game better? What if it only applied to fighters?

it has to be balanced versus the content in the game not at the whims of the players

[SINIBYTE]

Because he realizes that any characters or groups "power level" in this game is completely arbitrary and has to be carefully balanced against everything else for the game to remain fun?

Turbine could increase everyones DPS by 500% tomorrow. Would that make the game better? What if it only applied to fighters?

I'll say it again, since apparently noone can read.

Nowhere is it mentioned that this change would be implemented in regards to balance.

In fact, Eladrin seems to view this as a "neutral" change. In some cases, he actually considers it a buff. After removing the quintuple strike bug, according to Eladrin, you can actually do MORE damage than before...

I think it's more of a neutral change. I do like the ability for you to buff your own damage with a (what was previously a rarely used) finisher, which also buffs the damage of the rest of your party against an opponent with fortification.

The vast majority of those that ACTUALLY play dark monks, disagree.

[Therilith]

Ah but it's acceptable to REDUCE the DPS of one class/build putting the others out front? Yup that sounds balanced especially considering nothing SIGNIFICANT was given to offset that DPS loss.

The post you quoted was in response to someone saying that balance between classes was unnecessary.

I have make no statements as to whether or not I consider dark monks balanced.

Firstly, they can do that. maybe not without a save.

Every enemy. As in all of them, all the time. I am well aware of what a ranger can do.

Let me ask you this -again-. why does someone else killing something, while being on your same team, make you feel like a useless piker?

Keeping in mind that I'm talking about a very general view on class balance, as opposed to the ToD change in particular:
It doesn't matter what I "feel like". If Class A is 500% more powerful than Class B, Class B is effectively a useless piker.

if you win the basketball game, are you going to run up tot e coach and ask him to "balance" the point guard so he doesnt score more points than you?

Sports analogies. Great.
Hmm...
Not that I have any idea what a point guard is, but imagine if each team had 3 of them, and they had no real way of helping each other, it's all just "throw the ball and try to hit the hoop". They are equal in every way, except that when Point Guard 3 scores a point, your team actually gets fifty points instead of one.

How can PG1 and 2 actually make a meaningful contribution?

[gurgar78]

find the post where I talked about fighters and barbarians and had "envy" of them?
The only mention of barbarians is used to illustrate the fact that changing ToD doesn't create balance in the first place. So claiming its a balance issue is a non-fact

Isn't that what this whole thing has been about from the beginning? The change to dark monks causing them to fall too far behind barbarians and fighters in the melee DPS category and, thus, being considered undesirable and having a hard time finding groups?

That would be a balance issue and is a very good illustration of how class balance matters to everyone, not just to the specific classes that get modified.

[Therilith]

it has to be balanced versus the content in the game not at the whims of the players

How could Melee Class A and Melee Class B possibly both be balanced against Mob Q if they are at different ends of the power spectrum?

I'll say it again, since apparently noone can read.

Nowhere is it mentioned that this change would be implemented in regards to balance.

Assumption 1:
Dark Monks are being nerfed.
Assumption 2:
Some people think that that is a good thing.

If the devs don't realize 1, you should try to convince them instead of complaining about the people in 2.

[SINIBYTE]

Assumption 1:
Dark Monks are being nerfed.
Assumption 2:
Some people think that that is a good thing.

If the devs don't realize 1, you should try to convince them instead of complaining about the people in 2.

I have.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=276656

[KoboldKiller]

How could Melee Class A and Melee Class B possibly both be balanced against Mob Q if they are at different ends of the power spectrum?



Assumption 1:
Dark Monks are being nerfed.
Assumption 2:
Some people think that that is a good thing.

If the devs don't realize 1, you should try to convince them instead of complaining about the people in 2.

For the record he as well as others have been trying to do so however every one of those posts gets swallowed up by people applauding the change because now their Barbarian won't lose aggro for all of a few seconds.

[Eladrin]

In fact, Eladrin seems to view this as a "neutral" change. In some cases, he actually considers it a buff. After removing the quintuple strike bug, according to Eladrin, you can actually do MORE damage than before...

That's not the part that I said was a neutral change.

I said that I considered the change from untyped to negative energy mostly neutral, since the number of opponents it will no longer work on aren't super-abundant, and on every other opponent (except for powerful fiends) it had a combo that could potentially increase its damage. If you're not fighting a construct or undead, then the damage type change is almost always irrelevant.

[Therilith]

I have.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=276656

Excellent. I hope the devs read and consider what you wrote.

I am merely saying that some people might genuinely believe that dark monks should be nerfed. Whether or not they are right, that is a matter of class balance and therefore relevant to everyone, not just monks.

[Alanim]

That's not the part that I said was a neutral change.

I said that I considered the change from untyped to negative energy mostly neutral, since the number of opponents it will no longer work on aren't super-abundant, and on every other opponent (except for powerful fiends) it had a combo that could potentially increase its damage. If you're not fighting a construct or undead, then the damage type change is almost always irrelevant.

While I don't mind this change I think what I'm about to say will strike fear into the hearts of dark monks everywhere.

DOOMSPHERES!!!

Even though there are not that many, It'll be tough for them :P

[Eladrin]

While I don't mind this change I think what I'm about to say will strike fear into the hearts of dark monks everywhere.

DOOMSPHERES!!!

Even though there are not that many, It'll be tough for them :P

<shudder>

U7 has a good tool for use against them in it.

[SINIBYTE]

Excellent. I hope the devs read and consider what you wrote.

I am merely saying that some people might genuinely believe that dark monks should be nerfed. Whether or not they are right, that is a matter of class balance and therefore relevant to everyone, not just monks.

I hope so too.

Some may believe that (but never expressed an opinion on the matter until now). The thing is, it really has no effect on them, but it has every effect on those of us that actually play a dark monk.

[sephiroth1084]

That's not the part that I said was a neutral change.

I said that I considered the change from untyped to negative energy mostly neutral, since the number of opponents it will no longer work on aren't super-abundant, and on every other opponent (except for powerful fiends) it had a combo that could potentially increase its damage. If you're not fighting a construct or undead, then the damage type change is almost always irrelevant.

Well, that's somewhat misleading, Eladrin. Yes, if you look at all the stuff we fight, and weigh that number vs. the number of undead and constructs we fight, looking not at quantities of each, but single types of monsters, then it seems like this isn't a big deal. But look at how many quests are exclusively undead, or are chock-full of undead and constructs. We have whole adventure packs that are almost exclusively undead battles.

Then, consider that, vs. powerful bosses is where monks most want the full damage.