Touch of Death Compromise

[stoopid_cowboy]

Here is something that confuses me... Why is there so much complaining about ToD on undead? Is it not allowed for dark path monks to use handwraps of disruption?
I was running my 14brb in Necro 4 last night. While using a +1 ghost touch maul of disruption, I tore them up! I didnt rage, didn't damage boost, just swung. I also ran a Madstone Crater, four swings max and the skellies dropped into a green pile of bones.
Why do more monks not take advantage of the various weapons available to make their lives easy??? How many times has anyone seen a light monk with proper handwraps double the kill count of a caster in Wiz King? After all a monk with haste lands attack strings faster than any class (that I know of) and is more likely to disrupt undead or smite constructs.
I am in favor of the new changes!

Now, lets make a pass on Arcanes.

yuda

[dogpig00]

base 10 +20 monk level +8 wis modifier=38 dc.

This will hit for full 500 over 50% of the time in epic content. 26 wis is a pretty moderate amount.

I am more worried about multi-class monk, say 12monk/something/something. In that situation, original pre-U7 ToD will do 500 dmg, the new ToD will have DC of just 30, which is 10% chance to hit 500, if 38 DC is 50%.

Here is another question... if I have triple strike ToD in U7, does the monster attempt 3 saves vs ToD, or the first save dictates the rest?

[dogpig00]

Here is something that confuses me... Why is there so much complaining about ToD on undead? Is it not allowed for dark path monks to use handwraps of disruption?
I was running my 14brb in Necro 4 last night. While using a +1 ghost touch maul of disruption, I tore them up! I didnt rage, didn't damage boost, just swung. I also ran a Madstone Crater, four swings max and the skellies dropped into a green pile of bones.
Why do more monks not take advantage of the various weapons available to make their lives easy??? How many times has anyone seen a light monk with proper handwraps double the kill count of a caster in Wiz King? After all a monk with haste lands attack strings faster than any class (that I know of) and is more likely to disrupt undead or smite constructs.
I am in favor of the new changes!

Now, lets make a pass on Arcanes.

yuda

Disruption has a fixed low DC save, meaning it is powerful if you are playing low level content with this item. At high level content, it becomes a "vorpal" for undead, 5% chance to trigger, or simply put, it takes 20 hits to kill that mob. If you have ToD, i am sure you can kill that mob in under 20 hits.

In epic, disruption is useless as every mob has deathblock.

[rimble]

base 10 +20 monk level +8 wis modifier=38 dc.

This will hit for full 500 over 50% of the time in epic content. 26 wis is a pretty moderate amount.

Yeah, I live in blissful ignorance, not having had to worry about it before.

Anyways, I'm still bothered by 'all-or-half' being called scaling. I mean, yeah, it is, but it's just so absolute. But, I guess that's just DDO/DnD. I s'pose I keep arguing about basic system mechanics.

I'd just like to see scaling involve a more smoothe curve. Y'know, Monk Level + Wis Mod * 15 = ToD damage or something, I dunno (but again, gets back to the 'stop hurting multi-classing' stuff). Scaling is 30 seconds + 6 secs/level. +1 Natural Armor every 4 levels. Smite Damage = Paladin Level * Whatever...not 500 or 250.

[Firewall]

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced. I figured that attaching a save to it was better overall though since the ability would scale with levels. The negative energy change was added for the synergy with Touch of Despair, and to better reflect that it's the opposite of Rise of the Pheonix. (Raise Dead vs. Slay Living.)

There's also the flavor thing of Touch of Death being optimal against the Walking Dead and the Unliving being a bit... wrong.

Alternatively, if it's purely Shroud Portals that people are upset about - we could always make them vulnerable to negative energy. The Pale Masters would be happy about that.

Actually i like the idea that was proposed, where ToD has a physical and a negative energy component which triggers on a failed save, but considering the implementation as it is now on lamannia, i would prefer the original implementation with only one hit for 500 damage untyped damage by far and would be content with it.
I understand the flavour issues though so i think the part physical, part negative energy implementation would be the better deal.
It's not only the shroud portals that i'm worried about but the fact that the attack that is the best and most fun to use in my arsenal (I can see high damage numbers!!!) would be completely useless against most undead and constructs (and stuff immune to negative energy) which would make it very situational. I would prefer it to be at least a little useful in every circumstance.

[Gornin]

* I've got unbelievable luck with drops for my monk. I also got my Devouts the first run, when they dropped for the rogue in my party. I think I steal all of MadFloyd's luck though - he never gets anything he wants.

I have complained about this very thing, and what convinces me that there is some kind of bug attached to accounts and loot.

This is not just anecdotal, a couple of friends and I tracked my loot vs theirs and my value was 40 to 45% less than theirs. I have pulled 1 bloodstone in 4 years. Nearly all my raid loot was given to me by others since they already had one. Same with IR.

I have yet to pull a keepsake or blood, and I am actively farming boot ings. The only reason I have anyone ready for ToD is that I was given the ing. My loot woes are well known to my immediate circle of friends. It is the subject of much joking.

I could go on, but I won't bore anyone with this any longer.

So now there is a dev experiencing the same thing as I, all I can hope is that someone looks into it.

[KoboldKiller]

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced.

I would be fine with this change.

[dogpig00]

I am NOT OK with the "Palm" like implementation. Quivering Palm will stop your attack sequence for a bit. But since QP is intended for instant kill, I guess that is acceptable. ToD isn't intended for instant kill, so there usually will be additional hits after ToD. Breaking up attack animation for a bit isn't a good idea.

[KoboldKiller]

I am NOT OK with the "Palm" like implementation. Quivering Palm will stop your attack sequence for a bit. But since QP is intended for instant kill, I guess that is acceptable. ToD isn't intended for instant kill, so there usually will be additional hits after ToD. Breaking up attack animation for a bit isn't a good idea.

Actually I find breaking up the attack sequence for one "powerful" blow appropriate.

It's much like a Boxer setting up an opponent for a knockout. He used a few jabs, maybe a cross and then WHAM.

[Khurse]

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced. I figured that attaching a save to it was better overall though since the ability would scale with levels. The negative energy change was added for the synergy with Touch of Despair, and to better reflect that it's the opposite of Rise of the Pheonix. (Raise Dead vs. Slay Living.)


* I've got unbelievable luck with drops for my monk. I also got my Devouts the first run, when they dropped for the rogue in my party. I think I steal all of MadFloyd's luck though - he never gets anything he wants.

Again curious as to "why"? When we could hit for 2500, monks still weren't, on the whole, out dpsing Barbs (assuming decent players with both of course) How is our ability to hit for 500-1500 untyped (or 500-1000 in other stances, unless you were unable to fix this) somehow unbalancing? I admit I don't have a mathematics backgrround to back me up, but it seems if we did X damage, and were't a top DPS, less than X wouldn't be unbalancing.

In any event I don't think either the players who insist that 1500 damage is way overpowered, but the idea that we can now do 1872 is fine and myself will ever agree so... moving on.

IS there any chance we can have some kind of Ninja 3 preview or idea what direction for it you're working on?
Looking at the awesome job you've done with the Shintao revamp brings some hope you're contemplating something similar with Ninja III, but it's always nice to know what idea you have in mind.

Also (speaking of Devouts) is there ever a chance they'll be changed to BTA instead of BTC?

[dogpig00]

Actually I find breaking up the attack sequence for one "powerful" blow appropriate.

It's much like a Boxer setting up an opponent for a knockout. He used a few jabs, maybe a cross and then WHAM.

monk already requires a lot of micro management with all the elemental strikes. With other melee class, you can simply select the target and turn on auto attack and let critical hits do the job.

[psymun]

I'm sorry, but watching this forum for the last week, this is what I'm seeing, at this point, you guys are currently at Stage 3...

1. SHOCK & DENIAL-
You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once. This may last for weeks.

2. PAIN & GUILT-
As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.

You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.

3. ANGER & BARGAINING-
Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the death on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.

You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair ("I will never drink again if you just bring him back")

4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-
Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders. Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.

During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair.

Once Update 7 goes live, I'm sure you will slowly approach this period, as I remember I was in a similar case with the TWF nerf.

5. THE UPWARD TURN-
As you start to adjust to life without your dear one, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.

6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-
As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself and your life without him or her.

I assure all of you, that most of you will eventually reach this point. It will take time, and luckily we have these forums as a support group. I know it was my guild that helped me through the tough times with the TWF Nerf. I was almost ready to delete my character, but they stopped me, and reminded me that it's JUST A GAME!

7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.

Ok, I know I'm going to get a lot of neg rep and get flamed for this post, but it had to be said.

[AylinIsAwesome]

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced.

Even with the mobs making their save, I know I'm pretty likely to get 500 damage, and sometimes 750 out of it, more if they fail the save.

So to me, I'd rather keep the save than change it to that.

I figured that attaching a save to it was better overall though since the ability would scale with levels.

The problem I have with it, is that seeing as how my WIS isn't high (or even moderate, gonna top off around 20) my max save will only be 35...which isn't enough.

If it was just meant to have it scale with level, 25 * Monk level would have been cool. Or perhaps having Ninja Spy give bonuses to the DC of landing Negative Energy moves, say +1 per tier?

The negative energy change was added for the synergy with Touch of Despair,

I don't actually have time to prep Touch of Despair, and it would be subject to the mobs making a save too. If we had a couple more Dark moves it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but now I'd have to delay several Ki strikes to get one off. They'd have to be good enough to make me not want to use just use Strike of the Enduring against everything though.

and to better reflect that it's the opposite of Rise of the Pheonix. (Raise Dead vs. Slay Living.

There's also the flavor thing of Touch of Death being optimal against the Walking Dead and the Unliving being a bit... wrong.

I get that.

Alternatively, if it's purely Shroud Portals that people are upset about - we could always make them vulnerable to negative energy. The Pale Masters would be happy about that.

I like this.

I actually have a monk on the live servers that I was playing this weekend. We four manned Garamol in the Subterrane (yeah, yeah, I know, big deal) and I got my Icy Raiments on the second try*, and then we went rampaging through the Inspired Quarter quests.

Does this mean I can hope for some new handwraps in U8 too?

[manumase]

i love the new touch of death, strange as that makes me, i just wish i knew if we could boost it with nihil and nullification, i dont mind the save, (maybe thats because i have 30 wisdom with wisdom airship buff) and i can see peoples arguments, but what about the nerf for twf? everyone (me included) was shouting doom, now we just live with it, so live with this.

i kinda see why it was done with the new shintao monk, now light monks have some use against dark monks for their abilities rather than just healing (which is more of a perk than anything) and always stopping stuns in ToD, but end game with a high enough dc a dark monk will still lay waste, i got 30 without even trying and putting only 1 level up point in it. and that was only because it was the only stat that was on an odd at 20.

well i am just gonna stand back, watch the drama with some nice popcorn and hope eladrin answers my question.

Can touch of death be upgraded with nullification or nihil? (i hope its a yes, will make it worth the save imo then) (i know i should try it but cant get on lamannia atm, just reformatted pc) (ok got a friend of mine to log on lamaland as my monk and check, he said no)

[Therilith]

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack

As someone who hasn't played a monk in years and really shouldn't be part of this discussion, I would actually prefer the save/neg.

Triple strikes rock.

[rimble]

Ok, I know I'm going to get a lot of neg rep and get flamed for this post, but it had to be said.

I think that's funny, but I don't think it's quite that clinical.

The DM makes a call you disagree with. You discuss/argue with the DM but it becomes clear you two will never agree. You're not on equal ground. You can play or leave, that's it. This would have been resolved in 30 minutes (or less) at the table, it just takes more time in this environment.

[Angelus_dead]

Actually I find breaking up the attack sequence for one "powerful" blow appropriate.

Yes it has a kind of verisimiltude, but it's trickier to make that work in gameplay because the special attack must then be balanced against the regular attacks you would lose. It's easier to get a balanced design if using the special ability doesn't interfer with regular hits.

[Chubsta]

Sometimes I have the impression that you don't play a lot... not monks, anyway. The adamantine part, yeah, true, but the lower critical?

Man, dunno if you know that fact, but smiting go out with a crit and taking a fighter or a barb with the low crit of their weapons (in the case of fighter something like scimitar, for example) and a monk with wraps of smiting... Guess who is gonna rip the construct first.

And a monk has what it has... can't change the weapons to have something more optimal to fight a construct with a better crit like other classes can do, all for the centered mechanics. Kamas, wraps, shuriken and staff, or maybe short swords... everything have about the same crit and if they don't use their fists, they lose a great deal of damage.

So, taking that, are you complete sure that, losing our ToD, we are better than a fighter or a barb against constructs 'cause we have less to lose?? Taking that we lose all our posibilities to attack....

And... monks don't come to the world with adamantine... sure at level 16 they have it, but... until them? Devouts?? Again??

Don't take me wrong, Eladrin, I guess you're taking a great deal of patience into this, but I see your base in that statement very weak, for the huge change you want to make.

Dark monks are given the use of short swords and a free feat: Improved Critical: Shortsword. These work well for smiting.

[Resilian]

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced. I figured that attaching a save to it was better overall though since the ability would scale with levels. The negative energy change was added for the synergy with Touch of Despair, and to better reflect that it's the opposite of Rise of the Pheonix. (Raise Dead vs. Slay Living.)

Nah, the original change is preferable to this option. Current ToD is preferable to both. =P I really hate undead in this game so I'm definitely upset about ToD not affecting them anymore, but other than that I think with a DC 38 save I will do fine after the change.

Alternatively, if it's purely Shroud Portals that people are upset about - we could always make them vulnerable to negative energy. The Pale Masters would be happy about that.

Sounds good to me!

[Khurse]

A lot of the devs play a lot more than people think. We may even be in your parties sometimes.

Are you the guys that keep showing up without heavy fort?