Touch of Death Compromise

[SINIBYTE]

From your response here and elsewhere it is evident that these changes are balance related and the flavor component is purely secondary. I'm not seeing much in the way of quantifiable evidence that a balance change is warranted or unwarranted by either side of the discussion. Most of the people in these ToD discussion threads are translating their experience as users (dark monks) and observers (party members) of the ability into an opinion on balance. Balance is a murky subject but I do believe a component of balance has to be the community's feeling as a whole. I do not want an ability of my character to invalidate or ruin the play experience of another group of players. Likewise, I would not want a balance change to completely invalidate a group of player builds even if it helps me compete in game with my class. In this case community perception of balance is inherently flawed because of a bug allowing quadruple and quintuple ToD effects. I suspect this bug also inflates the documented rate of double or triple effects (wind stance) versus expected single effects.

Even with the tools I would assume you as a developer have access to, I do not believe it makes sense to attempt a balance change on an ability that is bugged so heavily toward the over-powered side. I simply don't think a test server exposes the ability to enough experience to gauge balance. I think the most sensible change for Update 7 is to fix the clearly over-powering bug and give the community as a whole a chance to experience touch of death that is working according to Update 5 documentation. An end game balance change may be warranted but there are far to many people affected by this change not to give it due process.

As many dark monks have already mentioned, there is a balance issue but it has to do with scaling of damage per level not damage at end game. The issue with even a single ToD effect at level 9 is that it prevents other party members from contributing at all to many boss fights in that level of content. The quadruple and quintuple ToD effects extend the one-shot boss effect into higher level content than it would otherwise. If I were to make a balance change effective in Update 7 it would be to scale ToD based on character level so that only at level 20 did ToD effects hit for 500 while leaving leaving double and triple (wind stance) effects alone. By making it character level we spare our multi-class friends from undue harm.

Lastly, if an end game balance change must happen in Update 7 I'd rather see negative energy damage type and rather than a fort save a lowering of ToD effect of 500 to something seen as reasonable while retaining the double and triple effect chance so wind stance and two weapon feats are not impacted as much as a secondary effect of the balance change. This method would also put multi-class and single class ToD users in the same boat balance wise. I'll say again that personally I think making an end game balance change could only be accurately evaluated with a non-bugged version of ToD after Update 7.

Completely sensible.

There's no reason to triple nerf a skill because the initial implementation had a bug in it. Fix the bug. Leave it alone. Revisit it later after you've had the chance to observe the non-bugged version. This fix requires a scalpel, not a chainsaw.

[Chai]

So at level 9, we are handing monks a 390 point strike instead of a 500 point strike. /not signed.

My suggestion was to move ToD to tier 3 of ninja spy, level 18 required. Done. It was OP at level 9. I didnt think it was OP at level 18 - 20, seeings how my DPS toons could keep up with dark monks.

[SINIBYTE]

So at level 9, we are handing monks a 390 point strike instead of a 500 point strike. /not signed.

My suggestion was to move ToD to tier 3 of ninja spy, level 18 required. Done. It was OP at level 9. I didnt think it was OP at level 18 - 20, seeings how my DPS toons could keep up with dark monks.

It's never been declared OP by any of the devs posting on the issue (or we'd see some evidence in the U7 changes), however some have proposed a scaling solution for those that think it is truly OP at level 9.

TOD = (Monk Level * 25)

[Therilith]

There is only 1 kind of balance: both sides being equal. There no such thing as "perfect" or "uneven" balance.

Let's argue semantics. That's fun.

The more people argue for balance the more likely it is that all classes will do the exact same against all the content in the game.

BS

Give me the name of a ranged dps class in ddo that cant do anything except ranged dps, then maybe we can talk about the definition of "nothing else to make up for that".
Take rangers for instance, they get twf feats for free, and bow strength. Meaning they sue the SAME stat for Bow damage as they do for Melee combat. Making up for the weak ranged dps: use your melee weapons.

Class C was just hypothetical. It had nothing to do with ranged combat.

[LiquidShadow]

a monk gives up a good portion of their saves, and any hope of an AC build by pursueing more damage. ditto with the ToD DC. exceling at any one of these normally comes at the expense of one of the others.

now thats a surprise. it works like every other class now. so u cant have high ac and kill everything with tod? that must hurt. maybe thats how it should be?

getting a useful ToD number (and no, i do not count trash mobs, or even epic trash mobs into account for a useful number) will trash a characters to hit for most builds. If you're working with +4 tomes and multiple past lives, then just about anything can work. But a typical monk-> monk progression with +2's isnt the same.

noone is recommending for monks to be top DPS even when sacrificing for it. but maintaining a workable DC for bosses to compete with would be nice.

maybe thats why monks are for (killing trash)? stunning attacks dont work on bosses too and nobody is complaining about it. i bet there are builds using both stunning fist and stunning blow (imagine this on trash mobs, no other class can use 2 skills to do this). maybe u should play barbarian if u want to do max dps on bosses.

personally if I were to choose a nerf option:


1)(obviously) fix the 3x/5x bug
2) have it negative energy damage
3) no save DC

careful what u wish cause u might get it. no save is fine but then how about 1d6 dmg per monk lvl for example

We're not a caster, we already have to hit the monster to start with. And monks already dont have the best to hit. We're a swiss army knife when it comes to killing trash mobs, a DC here is pointlessly easy to acheive for an ability thats not even necessary. For bosses we have absurdley short reach and have to be able to hit their AC; making them have to fail a saving throw on an overinflated save is overkill.

feel like a paladin about ur stats and to hit bonus? or maybe like a rogue assassin on 50% (it halves ur dmg on save so 50% and its just 1 skill per 15 sec.) fortificated boss? this is just balance

try building a monk that can hit epic DQ on a 2, while chasing her, and still have a good shot at landing their ToD if it has a DC to it. Now you can up your DC, but your to hit suffers, so u're not hitting her at all that way, DC or not. Chances are, you're not using power attack, and you have to hit her with improved destruction beforehand as well.

now u try to build rogue tank or healer paladin and compare them to stalward defender and cleric...
maybe its not the smartest idea
and what is this about? executed save just halves ur dmg which is still more than enough
hey what about going shintao monk if u want to hit demon well? LOL ever considered this? this would solve ur problem.

the option to debuff the monster first to get more damage out of a ToD would be nice IF it worked on raid bosses. anything else you're better off just using ToD straight out, as the monster is not going to make it around to the next cooldown. About the only place the debuff might see some use is on epic named monsters whose name doesnt start with velah or the demon queen.

ask devs nicely maybe they will make a new attack for rogues (yes not a monk move, u have enough of this) that will decrease saves. just like they did monk move which decreases fortification... and how about option to debuff monster so everyone can do more dmg to them? do u see how stupid it is?

[LiquidShadow]

really? cause I was under the impression that smiting autocrit mobs was pretty bad***

yea works realy well on rats and other not evil mobs...

[Goldenadult79]

Let's argue semantics. That's fun.

The dictionary ends the argument.

BS

oh really? monks can no longer use their main damage attack on undead on constructs. Sound familiar? Something thats similar to all the other classes in the game?


Class C was just hypothetical. It had nothing to do with ranged combat.

lets leave imaginary classes out of the discussion. And answer to the example I gave. A real class, thats actually in game. Nice deflection of the question though

ok?

[BlackSteel]

now thats a surprise. it works like every other class now. so u cant have high ac and kill everything with tod? that must hurt. maybe thats how it should be?



maybe thats why monks are for (killing trash)? stunning attacks dont work on bosses too and nobody is complaining about it. i bet there are builds using both stunning fist and stunning blow (imagine this on trash mobs, no other class can use 2 skills to do this). maybe u should play barbarian if u want to do max dps on bosses.



careful what u wish cause u might get it. no save is fine but then how about 1d6 dmg per monk lvl for example



feel like a paladin about ur stats and to hit bonus? or maybe like a rogue assassin on 50% (it halves ur dmg on save so 50% and its just 1 skill per 15 sec.) fortificated boss? this is just balance



now u try to build rogue tank or healer paladin and compare them to stalward defender and cleric...
maybe its not the smartest idea
and what is this about? executed save just halves ur dmg which is still more than enough
hey what about going shintao monk if u want to hit demon well? LOL ever considered this? this would solve ur problem.



ask devs nicely maybe they will make a new attack for rogues (yes not a monk move, u have enough of this) that will decrease saves. just like they did monk move which decreases fortification... and how about option to debuff monster so everyone can do more dmg to them? do u see how stupid it is?

wow just wow, you have alot of wrong misconceptions. i thought most of us played the same game, evidently not

[Therilith]

The dictionary ends the argument.

One can be close to (or far from) achieving balance.

oh really? monks can no longer use their main damage attack on undead on constructs. Sound familiar? Something thats similar to all the other classes in the game?

That's really your argument?
"This change makes one aspect of one specialization of one class more closely resemble different abilities of other classes in their effect on certain mobs. Therefore class balance means that all classes will eventually be identical."

lets leave imaginary classes out of the discussion. And answer to the example I gave. A real class, thats actually in game. Nice deflection of the question though

As I have mentioned several times before, I am not talking about the ToD nerf or even DDO. I'm disagreeing with your statement that class balance is undesirable.

[SINIBYTE]

I think it's a pretty thin argument to say "Other classes can't do it, so monks shouldn't either". So monks should only be able to do what other classes can do? Only less so, right? Sounding pretty straw man to me...

[Mobeius]

I think it's a pretty thin argument to say "Other classes can't do it, so monks shouldn't either". So monks should only be able to do what other classes can do? Only less so, right? Sounding pretty straw man to me...

Says the group coming from the barbs and paladins and kenseii's get massive crits so why cant we farm.

[LiquidShadow]

I think it's a pretty thin argument to say "Other classes can't do it, so monks shouldn't either". So monks should only be able to do what other classes can do? Only less so, right? Sounding pretty straw man to me...

i didn see anyone saying "Other classes can't do it, so monks shouldn't either". reality is different, most things can be done by many different classes working together or monks (tanking boss in raid, killing trash fast, avoiding aoe dmg, self healing, dealing nice dmg even without tod). i just dont get why u think that monk should do well in everything on 1 build. other classes and even builds have different drawbacks why monks shouldnt have 1? because they are p2p? or because YOU play monk? think about other players, why shouldnt we all do monks and tod spam everything... who needs arcane if u can do more dmg and dont worry about sp and aggro.

wow just wow, you have alot of wrong misconceptions. i thought most of us played the same game, evidently not

yea. looks like u are still sitting in front of ur xbox or ps3 and playing Shang Tsung in mortal kombat... (maybe thats why u think that u can use advantages of nearly all other classes + ur own unique skills)

[dogpig00]

So at level 9, we are handing monks a 390 point strike instead of a 500 point strike. /not signed.

My suggestion was to move ToD to tier 3 of ninja spy, level 18 required. Done. It was OP at level 9. I didnt think it was OP at level 18 - 20, seeings how my DPS toons could keep up with dark monks.

Touch of Death is not tied to Ninja Spy PrE, just as Rise of Phoenix is not tied to Shintao. Once they release the Heron Mystic PrE, ToD should also work.

[Khurse]

I'm even willing to try one nerf + the fix.
1) Fix the strikes so it's max 3 in windstance, 2 in the other stances and
Either
A) Keep damage untyped, put in a save
or
B) Damage goes to negative energy, no save.

Either knocks it down from what it is right now, piling a number of nerfs on it at one time seems excessive, with no reason that anyone (after pages and pages and pages of feedback) has been able to come up with why it should be that way.

[BlackSteel]

I'm even willing to try one nerf + the fix.
1) Fix the strikes so it's max 3 in windstance, 2 in the other stances and
Either
A) Keep damage untyped, put in a save
or
B) Damage goes to negative energy, no save.

Either knocks it down from what it is right now, piling a number of nerfs on it at one time seems excessive, with no reason that anyone (after pages and pages and pages of feedback) has been able to come up with why it should be that way.

you mean aside from pent up light monk jealousy from months of feeling subpar in comparison. But now that they get a new toy too, at the same time as this happening, it's all to easy to rub it in that the roles will be reversed.

frankly I feel that its funny that all this is coming out with the ToD nerf; I can only think of one other monk thread with this amount of trolling on the subject matter. (if I missed others then they didnt stick around very long, I spend way too much time reading the forums). And the ironic thing about the 'are you light or dark' thread, is that it simply starts off with a DARK monk being apologetic about joining a tower run b/c he doesnt have light monk buffs.

seeing all these posts coming down from high horses about how their monks have balanced stats, and all the dark monks should to; is frankly, well I dont have a word for how stupid it is. Unless someone's told you how they built they're monk, or you've taken the time to myDDo them and they had an up to date snapshot, then you dont know. And by this account you dont know how the nerf will effect them either. I'm sorry but unless you've played a dark monk at end game, you really shouldnt be speculating one way or the other.

ToD has two uses at cap.

1) stealing kills on trash mobs (yay a stunned mob, that will die 1 second earlier than it would otherwise, considering the guy next to you is using dual picks and critting for 3x your DPS, assuming most of your hits are regular earth strikes and not the finisher or fists of iron)

2) boss DPS. these guys are not curse-able, so you cant amp it if ToD goes negative energy. and have absurdly high saves. Even a well balanced monk will have a large percentage of their ToD's failing agaisnt hard/elite Horoth or epic raid bosses. Having 3x fighter past lives and spending 12 AP in a tactics line should not be a prereq to building a monk with an acceptable boss DC.

[Dandonk]

I like the idea that someone had of making TOD damage (20+WIS mod)*monk level. It'll scale the damage to both wis (making the wisdom a desirably, but not necessary attribute) and monk level - making tod decent, but not a 9 level splash thing that people build their toon solely around.

I would then argue agaisnt a save (since wisdom already determines damage). If you really want to make it neg energy, I could survive that in this incarnation of tod.

EDIT: Of course, the 4 or 5 strike bug needs to be fixed.

[rimble]

I'm even willing to try one nerf + the fix.
1) Fix the strikes so it's max 3 in windstance, 2 in the other stances and
Either
A) Keep damage untyped, put in a save
or
B) Damage goes to negative energy, no save.

Either knocks it down from what it is right now, piling a number of nerfs on it at one time seems excessive, with no reason that anyone (after pages and pages and pages of feedback) has been able to come up with why it should be that way.

Agreed, ultimately what I'd like:

1) Normalize the number of strikes that occur. I don't particularly see why Wind should get extra strikes...? (and I'm a Wind Monk)

2) Keep the damage untyped, or even just 'Bludgeoning'. Change the flavor text on the ability to match.

3) Ditch the save. Saves are depressing. They just mean the harder you try to do something cool, the worse you get. As you step up to Hard / Elite / Epic, your enemies Hit Points skyrocket, and simultaneously your strikes damage drops from their increased saves, it's a depressing double tap of ineffectiveness.

4) Scale Damage. Yes, this nerfs multi-classes, but, I'm sorry...my Level 20 Monk is twice the Dark Monk your Level 9 Monk is, I think my ToD SHOULD hit harder. Not sure what the equation should be, but something incorporating Monk Level and Wisdom modifier...(20 + Wis Mod) * Monk Level might work. A 6 Wis pure Monk would do 360, a crazy 40 Wis Monk 700! (someone with better math chops than I would need to calculate if that's fair, hehe)

High-Level Build Disclosure (because I'm tired of the absurd build assumptions being made by some):

Halfling Finesse Level 20 Wind (most of the time) Monk, starting Wisdom 15 (+6 Item, +2 Tome, +1 Enh = 24).

[gurgar78]

1) Normalize the number of strikes that occur. I don't particularly see why Wind should get extra strikes...? (and I'm a Wind Monk)

I think this is where the problem is coming in, based on posts I've seen from Eladrin about ways to change the ability. My suspicion is that with the games mechanics as they are, there is no easy way for them to limit the number of strikes while having it remain part of your attack chain. If it's on the attack chain, it will retain the potential to strike up to 3 times.

The ability was originally doing an unresistable, unsavable 500 point single strike.

Per Eladrin's proposed compromise, they can return it to a single untyped, unsavable 500 point strike by attaching it to an animation, such as the Quivering Palm animation. However, based on player posts I've seen, this interrupts your attack chain and would probably be worse overall.

The solution that the devs thought would be better would be to give it a save and leave it attached to the attack chain. This reduces the average damage that would be produced by the attack without making it inconvenient to use.

Make no mistake, they are intentionally reducing the damage. Looking for a way to retain the same damage it is currently doing, even discounting the bugged 4th and 5th strike, is probably not going to work. That seems to be the intent: to bring it back in line with the damage it originally did.

[Khurse]

That's just it, it was originally a500pt attack, decent but nothing too excitn. (Except at lvl 9 when you got it)
The Devs then changed it so it was supposed to be able to proc up to 2-3 times. I'm pretty sure the Devs knew the basic math involved. This (obviously) was bugged and went up to 5 times instead.
But it's a change the devs out in, it's not like they sat there and said 3x 500 = 500 pts of damage.
And the change can not be to reduce damage, as it now can do more damage. (1875ish for 3 strikes) albeit with a high DC needed.
I strongly suspect the change was to tie TOD (very useful obviously) with the Dark Monk moves and curses (what's the opposite of useful again?) But I have no idea why the save was added, unless it was there to compensate for the fact that we can now do more than 1500 pts. Still it seems one or the other would have been a better idea to start.
In any event I'd like to see a re examination of the dark monk line, (although I honestly doubt they have time to do this) in order to produce something a little more useful as an ability line. Hmm perhaps time for anoher thread...

[dogpig00]

Why nobody promote the my original split damage implementation? That will get you the good and bad of both sides.