Question on Known Issue/Bug Reporting

[Angelus_dead]

That doesn't surprise me. The dev's are not the bug database cullers. They deal in the here and now, and unless a bug becomes the "here and now" they're working on things that aren't yet in the game.

Whether or not there are non-developer staffers assigned to filter bug reports isn't the point.

The problem is that those bug reports should not have been closed, because the functionality was not correct. Either whoever closed that bug didn't check the design docs, or the design docs were erroneous or incomplete.

[Riggs]

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time. Even the really vague ones where the entire report is "titan bug". -_-;

That is a straw man argument however - many long time players, skilled players, who cared about the game did not submit bugs with 2 words in it "Fix mobs!" It is not accurate to say that all bug reports are that useless and vague, and therefor thats why most things dont get fixed for 2 years at a time.

I know a lot of people USED to file reports, with details. I used to a few times as well even though I am lazy.

But filing reports, seeing nothing, no repsonse, nothing on the forums, nothing even on the known issues list even though you know 10 people filed a report on it, and then 9 months later a dev or someone from Turbine comes on the forum and says "Oh we didnt know about that, I will try to look into it - please submit bug reports"...is very frustrating.

Saying "Someone reads them" doesnt really mean anything. Someone also has to report to someone who can actually DO something about it, and also let players know it was received and is now known - which doesnt happen currently - so "Someone reads them and immediately deletes them" means exactly the same thing too - because we have no way to tell, and since there are old bugs still not on the list.....

And it happened for at least 3 years. Maybe someone is actually reading and logging them now...but not before. And you cant tell long time players that it was always working because I am sure everyone could come up with 10 different examples of exactly that "Oh we didnt know about this bug that 100 people have reported in the last 3 days alone, and/or have been reporting AND posting on the forum for over a year".

So yes, it would be really nice to have a partitioned list - known issues not requiring bug reports, known issues requiring more detail/bug reports, and if anything isnt on those two lists - then Turbine doesnt know about it so report it.

But if something gets reported - it better show up on the list before too long - or else people will give up again and not bother reporting anything because that means it went back to the circular filing cabinet of yore.

[Folonius]

Whether or not there are non-developer staffers assigned to filter bug reports isn't the point.

The problem is that those bug reports should not have been closed, because the functionality was not correct. Either whoever closed that bug didn't check the design docs, or the design docs were erroneous or incomplete.

IMO, it makes no sense to keep around incomplete bug reports. But it sounds like Turbine needs to hire more QC personel to maintain and track bugs better.

*raises hand*
pick me pick me!

[Angelus_dead]

So this is actually a good example of the difference between the bug reports we get and the ones we're looking for ^^

Ok, here's an example of a bug report I submitted a few months ago, which contributed to the impression that they don't get read.

1. An update changed the duration of Fire Shield, but the Web immunity portion stayed at the old duration. (For example, 3.5 minutes for Fire Shield but 3.0 minutes for web immunity)
2. I file a bug report saying that the duration of web immunity is incorrectly different from that of Fire Shield.
3. Nothing appears in the Known Issues page.
4. The bug isn't fixed in game.

So what am I to think happened to this bug report?
1. The HTTP server completely dropped the submission.
2. Someone closed it without looking.
3. Someone read it and decided the behavior was correct, closing it as NOTABUG.
4. The report is still waiting in a queue for someone to read.
5. The report was confirmed and is waiting for a developer to someday fix.

From out here I can't tell what happened, and my motivation to spend time and effort on further detailed bug reports is reduced.

[Cahira]

I'll have to poke Keeper and see if there are any other types of situations that can cause the "sticky" ("looping climb" "broken ladder" "ladder rubber band" "infinite ladder climb" "dejavu ladder" everyone has a different description for it) situation. Any time I have it happen, it's on a ladder I haven't tried to climb before, and usually towards the bottom half rather than the top half of the ladder. Or on a ladder that I know to be broken but I'm not sure if Keeper's gotten a chance to correct. They're similar to "stuck spots" really.

The way I notice the bottom of the ladder bug the most often is if I attempt to jump on a ladder, but, due to poor timing on my part or discrepancy between the client and server, I end up ending my jump at the bottom of the ladder instead of partway up it.

That will put me in the constant loop of trying to climb and not being able to.

Hopefully, that helps.

[Folonius]

That is a straw man argument however - many long time players, skilled players, who cared about the game did not submit bugs with 2 words in it "Fix mobs!" It is not accurate to say that all bug reports are that useless and vague, and therefor thats why most things dont get fixed for 2 years at a time.

It's not a strawman arguement. The Op's message wasn't misrepresented. He simply stated that more information, and not the two word bug reports, are needed. There are hundreds of ways for a bug to occur in complex code, and narrowing it down I would think is a hard task. Out of all the bug reports brought in in a day, I would be interested to know how many of those reports are similar to "Titan Bug" or other bug reports where there is just not enough information.

I know a lot of people USED to file reports, with details. I used to a few times as well even though I am lazy.

But filing reports, seeing nothing, no repsonse, nothing on the forums, nothing even on the known issues list even though you know 10 people filed a report on it, and then 9 months later a dev or someone from Turbine comes on the forum and says "Oh we didnt know about that, I will try to look into it - please submit bug reports"...is very frustrating.

I can't speak for past experiences, but just seeing the amount of times tolero has posted in this thread makes me think that something is being done about bugs. I still do agree with everyone else that they should make an online database, but looking at the mod response to this thread, I think we may get it at some point down the line.

because we have no way to tell, and since there are old bugs still not on the list.....

And I think if a database does ever come around, once enough bug reports have been filed, they can change the database info on that report to reflect that enough information has been gathered on that to properly fix it. That doesn't mean that it will be fixed based on priority (which I think that should be kept private) but just that they know the general idea on how to fix it.

And it happened for at least 3 years. Maybe someone is actually reading and logging them now...but not before.

That's your strawman. What they did in the past is irrelevant. What they are doing to make the game better is relevant.

So yes, it would be really nice to have a partitioned list - known issues not requiring bug reports, known issues requiring more detail/bug reports, and if anything isnt on those two lists - then Turbine doesnt know about it so report it.

But if something gets reported - it better show up on the list before too long - or else people will give up again and not bother reporting anything because that means it went back to the circular filing cabinet of yore.

I would go one step farther, if something is bugged repeatedly, and it is WAI, then put it in this database to let the players know that it is WAI.

IMO, there is alot of potential in a database.

[knightgf]

Incidentally the particular report I'm talking about was from a long time ago and not applicable to the issue you're describing... so like I said.... "titan bug" could mean anything.

Could mean Clash of the Titans, or the Titan in Weapons Shipment, or in Inspired Quarter, it goes on and on and on...imagine if they wrote "Kobold bug" lol that'd be quite a problem to tackle...

On a serious note though, I must applaud the Turbine team for taking their work time off to chat with us and provide several clarifications to bug reports and everything else. Well done!

[zorander6]

IMO, it makes no sense to keep around incomplete bug reports. But it sounds like Turbine needs to hire more QC personel to maintain and track bugs better.

*raises hand*
pick me pick me!

Unfortunately the tickets that are not detailed at all "fix bug" doesn't help anyone and since bug reports aren't interactive......

Sure there are people who will fill out detailed reports, but most people have too low a wisdom score to know that IT people are not mind readers.

However that said most people who are willing to fill out detailed reports also expect to see something, some kind of progress, some report on whether it's even in the queue for consideration. Otherwise they feel their time is wasted and won't bother with it any longer. MadFloyd posting in the thread about the issue with guild renown is the type of thing we want to see. Even if it's a separate area for bug reports that show that Phax is working on issue X and issue Y is not currently under review. Make it clear what info you need. I can run wireshark and other tools if needed and will help but I'm not going to do so unless asked.

[smatt]

So something like a "Looking For More" list? I could poke the QA peeps and see if they'd be interested in something like this, it could be very useful (and informative for players and staff ^^). If not as a static link at least as maybe a periodic feature at the House o' Bugs.

Yes, something like that... In a perfect world it would have soem form of acknowledgemnt that bug reports have been received on an issue, but more information is needed to help track down how to recreate it. This might go a long way in helping QA, and the Dev team themsevles in figuring out how to deal with a specific bug. It would also in concert lead to the perception byut the playerbase that bugs are being looked into.. Win Win

[Missing_Minds]

And yet, almost every ladder in the game is still borked and mandates that you must jump on it to climb.... go figure.

Because client/server got out of sync and trying to climb a ladder doesn't work. The server is assuming the player is on the ground, the client attempt to go up the ladder over and over and over from a start point that the server doesn't agree with.

The issue is compounded by client server issues, not Keeper's ladders.

[AyumiAmakusa]

Because client/server got out of sync and trying to climb a ladder doesn't work. The server is assuming the player is on the ground, the client attempt to go up the ladder over and over and over from a start point that the server doesn't agree with.

The issue is compounded by client server issues, not Keeper's ladders.

Now that makes sense!!

[Riggs]

It's not a strawman arguement. The Op's message wasn't misrepresented. He simply stated that more information, and not the two word bug reports, are needed. .....

I can't speak for past experiences, but just seeing the amount of times tolero has posted in this thread makes me think that something is being done about bugs. I still do agree with everyone else that they should make an online database, but looking at the mod response to this thread, I think we may get it at some point down the line.


And I think if a database does ever come around, once enough bug reports have been filed, they can change the database info on that report to reflect that enough information has been gathered on that to properly fix it. That doesn't mean that it will be fixed based on priority (which I think that should be kept private) but just that they know the general idea on how to fix it.


That's your strawman. What they did in the past is irrelevant. What they are doing to make the game better is relevant.

You're new here. Enjoy the game.

Dont expect to get very far criticizing player repsonses to what has gone on for 4 years when you dont know what actually happened, and how things got to where it is today. I point to the last line I bolded that invalidates any argument you try to make at this point. (Oh, and Tolero is not a He fyi)

[AZgreentea]

Instead you can actually be more verbose and write a description just like what you wrote in your post:

I blame the current generation of people who seem to think that a 5-10 page essay is a novel, instead of an effective way to prove your point with facts and details.

That being said, the little tiny window you get with the bug reports means I usually have to write it in a word editor (with a spell checker) and then paste it into the report. the smallness encourages terse replies, since it implies a shorter response is desired. It would be nice if the box were bigger (or expandable) and had its own spell checker (or if more people use Firefox, but that is a different issue).

[Missing_Minds]

So (and Keeper can correct me on this if I'm wrong) my general understanding of the way ladders work is that they can get bustificated in two ways:
A) If they're too far in the ground
B) If many moons ago in DDO's early life, the ladder was made using multiple ladder chunks.

One requires Keeper to scoot the ladder out of the ground (or something like that), another requires her to yank the "pieces" out and put in a nice whole ladder. If you're jumping onto the ladder and it's borking, it's like problem B ... usually. I'm sure I said the above wrong :P Keeper can spank me if I'm giving erroneous ladder anatomy.

C) To close to something else, say a rock or circular sewer walls.

The rock example is out in the orchard. I want to say the top cave where the rare mummy can spawn. (I think that one got fixed)

Or sewers in The Snitch. The ladders are too close to the end of the tunnel so trying to climb up them from the bottom is near impossible. It effects any ladder who's base is in a sewer tunnel in that quest. That is a LOT of ladders. No I've not bug reported them just due to the shere amount of them because you want one report per ladder.

[GoldyGopher]

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

I stopped bug reporting ladders because well after listing a couple hundred it got well idiotic and senseless. Today there are a least several dozen ladders that still have the hitch problem. From original content all the way to the most current content. (Thinking if there are any latters in the Red Fens.)

[AyumiAmakusa]

C) To close to something else, say a rock or circular sewer walls.

The rock example is out in the orchard. I want to say the top cave where the rare mummy can spawn. (I think that one got fixed)

Or sewers in The Snitch. The ladders are too close to the end of the tunnel so trying to climb up them from the bottom is near impossible. It effects any ladder who's base is in a sewer tunnel in that quest. That is a LOT of ladders. No I've not bug reported them just due to the shere amount of them because you want one report per ladder.

Boy I'd really hate it if the ladder bug happened in 'Prove Your Worth' right when you're almost at the top.

[Folonius]

You're new here. Enjoy the game.

Dont expect to get very far criticizing player repsonses to what has gone on for 4 years when you dont know what actually happened, and how things got to where it is today. I point to the last line I bolded that invalidates any argument you try to make at this point.

Hi Welcome

You are trying to validate a strawman. If you can't see the strawman after I pointed it out, there's no point in trying to point it out again or trying to continue a conversation with you.

Edit: And Tolero was replying to the Op in which I was referring to in that she didn't misrepresent it. Please try to keep up.

[jkm]

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

the problem with statements like this are that there are 2 distinct different bugs with ladders.

the first bug was getting stuck on ladders. this was caused by a misalignment in the ladders after they moved up to DX9. keeper had to go back through every ladder and realign them. these bugs have been pretty much eradicated from the game.

the second bug is a little trickier and affects every ladder in the game. this is the bug that causes you to rubber band back to the bottom of the ladder every time you start climbing it. the only way to fix it is to step off the ladder and start over.

theory 1 - your client recognizes that you are on a ladder but the server does not. when the new climb coordinates are sent to the server, it rejects them as "invalid" because you can't walk up a vertical surface so it starts you back on the ground. this is repeated until you step off the ladder and get back onto it.

reasoning - this bug only occurs when you try to get on a ladder by running into it (your feet are on the ground). if you jump onto the ladder you never see this bug.

theory 2 - you are caught in an out of synch loop with the server. basically, the client is sending an update for rung 3 when the server thinks you are on 1. the server sends back a reset message. rinse repeat.

reasoning - very dependant on lagged messaging.

[Tolero]

C) To close to something else, say a rock or circular sewer walls.

Yeah I used the word "ground" a little freely. "physics" is the proper word, because it can be more than made of ground. It can be made of rocks, trees, walls, NPCs, invisible stuff that you don't even know is there, etc.

[Missing_Minds]

Yeah I used the word "ground" a little freely. "physics" is the proper word, because it can be more than made of ground. It can be made of rocks, trees, walls, NPCs, invisible stuff that you don't even know is there, etc.

The freaking solid kobolds in STK.... RGH...