Question on Known Issue/Bug Reporting

**smatt** · 08-02-2010, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tolero

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time. Even the really vague ones where the entire report is "titan bug". -_-;

That may very well be the case now... Well since 404error showed up months back.. Where is he BTW? But it certainly wasn't in the past Tolero... I do applaud the recent efforts on longstanding bugs. The system for reporting, acknowledging as WAI, known issue, known issue we need more info on, known issue we will fix, known issue with no fix coming soon, could be MUCH better. I know that players out there, experienced ones would be willing to work on recreating specific bugs and give mroe details about how and where they created and or encountered them, IF they actually thought it was having an impact on the Dev teams ability to fix them.

I know it's a complicated issue from many aspects... But it could be MUCH better...

**Tolero** · 08-02-2010, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Khurse

...It's not a really difficult raid, but it's hard enough that it can be kinda tough to try and convince people to take the extra time/resources to kill Sulo when there might not be a chest, and we don't really know what info your team is looking for other than 12 Bug Reports saying " killed Sulo on hard/elite,chest still not dropping"

So this is actually a good example of the difference between the bug reports we get and the ones we're looking for ^^

"killed Sulo on hard/elite,chest still not dropping"

Instead you can actually be more verbose and write a description just like what you wrote in your post:

Originally Posted by Khurse

the Sulo chest (yeah, kinda obsessed) it drops on normal, not on hard or elite.
With players I've talked to no one knows if

A) This is WAI, there is some extra step you are supposed to do to get the chest to spawn.
B) This is a bug, seems odd it has been known for a while, but is not on the KI list.
C) If this was a bug that was fixed.

It's not a really difficult raid, but it's hard enough that it can be kinda tough to try and convince people to take the extra time/resources to kill Sulo when there might not be a chest

I know this seems 'lengthy' but in some cases something may very well be WAI, and reports like this help from a "quality of life" stand point. Maybe the intent was for it to work the way it is? But if we're getting bug reports from people who are confused, it gives the quest folks leverage to change it. Not always, but it's added ammunition.

Very often people try to "abbreviate" their bug reports, and really you shouldn't worry about writing reports in short hand. Detailed bug reports are nutritious and delicious.

As for the chest itself, I'll ping the QA folks to make sure the reports they've gotten are telling us what we need to know. If now, I'm sure one of them will come prowling.

**Angelus_dead** · 08-02-2010, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Tolero

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time.

So maybe the person who reads them doesn't always do the best job.

I have observed at least four specific occasions where a developer learned about a bug on a forum post when I had previously filed a report into your official database. The apparent explanation is that bug reports get closed by people without full understanding.

**Freeman** · 08-02-2010, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tolero

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time. Even the really vague ones where the entire report is "titan bug". -_-;

Scenario #1: A bug report is submitted by a player, reviewed by Turbine staff, and placed in a bug tracker. One year later, that bug still exists in the game, and there has been no official mention of it.

Scenario #2: A player submits a bug report, and it is immediately deleted/lost/ignored for whatever reason. One year later, the bug is still in the game, and there has been no official acknowledgment of it.

From the player's POV, these appear identical. That is why we are asking for some method of determining if Turbine is aware of a particular bug. The WDA used to be a big help for this, but now there's virtually no reliable resource to turn to. And some bugs are so cut and dried that more info shouldn't be requires, but they still aren't on the list. Fog spells do not slow enemies down. Anywhere, no matter what class, race, or quest. What more information is needed there?

**Tolero** · 08-02-2010, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by AyumiAmakusa

You mean the Gloves of the Warforged Titan bug where it lists as giving a +8 Psionic bonus to Str when it actually gives +6 Psionic bonus to Str just like how Mysterious Bauble and Ring of Spell Storing are not listing the actual effects? Interesting how these bugs seem to require 'player feedback' when all that's required is a description change. How hard can this be? After all, the Dice Notation was changed *just like that*.

Don't know, "titan bug" could mean anything. That literally was the entire bug report.

Originally Posted by Bug report

Titan bug

Incidentally the particular report I'm talking about was from a long time ago and not applicable to the issue you're describing... so like I said.... "titan bug" could mean anything.

**smatt** · 08-02-2010, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Tolero

So this is actually a good example of the difference between the bug reports we get and the ones we're looking for ^^

"killed Sulo on hard/elite,chest still not dropping"

Instead you can actually be more verbose and write a description just like what you wrote in your post:

I know this seems 'lengthy' but in some cases something may very well be WAI, and reports like this help from a "quality of life" stand point. Maybe the intent was for it to work the way it is? But if we're getting bug reports from people who are confused, it gives the quest folks leverage to change it. Not always, but it's added ammunition.

Very often people try to "abbreviate" their bug reports, and really you shouldn't worry about writing reports in short hand. Detailed bug reports are nutritious and delicious.

As for the chest itself, I'll ping the QA folks to make sure the reports they've gotten are telling us what we need to know. If now, I'm sure one of them will come prowling.

OK, see this is a good start... You see if there was a list IE: Known issues.... Where soemone one would say... "Hey we need some better info on what's happening with this reported bug" I'm betting you would get it.... That hasn't been the case in the past..... I can understand how it would be time consuming.. But I think a few hours spent doimg such a task ever week would SAVE a lot of time and resources in the end. Much easier to find those pesky critters when you know what to shake to get them to scurry about

**smatt** · 08-02-2010, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Tolero

"titan bug" could mean anything.

Hmm, I was in Cabo last year and there were indeed some TITAN bugs

... And they were SCARY big... In fact one even stole my entire relleno

**Folonius** · 08-02-2010, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by smatt

OK, see this is a good start... You see if there was a list IE: Known issues.... Where soemone one would say... "Hey we need some better info on what's happening with this reported bug" I'm betting you would get it.... That hasn't been the case in the past..... I can understand how it would be time consuming.. But I think a few hours spent doimg such a task ever week would SAVE a lot of time and resources in the end. Much easier to find those pesky critters when you know what to shake to get them to scurry about

I am in agreement with everyone else on this. An online database of known issues and whether or not more bug reports are needed would be helpful. I don't always bug everything I find wrong, but I would if I knew turbine needed more info. You could put the database icon for bugs in the hotbar next to the ddo store or something

**Tolero** · 08-02-2010, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

So maybe the person who reads them doesn't always do the best job.

I have observed at least four specific occasions where a developer learned about a bug on a forum post when I had previously filed a report into your official database. The apparent explanation is that bug reports get closed by people without full understanding.

That doesn't surprise me. The dev's are not the bug database cullers. They deal in the here and now, and unless a bug becomes the "here and now" they're working on things that aren't yet in the game. MadFloyd, Glin, Fernando, etc do their best to keep an ear towards what some of the "hot seat" issues are, but they aren't going to know about every bug. Very often one of them will respond to an issue brought up on the forums or in their PUGs that they didn't know about only to learn later that yes, we had a bug on this already. I wouldn't expect them to know that level of detail any more than I would expect me to know what someone's particular trade thread was about on Sarlona just because they are posted in the forums.

**Rodrak** · 08-02-2010, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Tolero

Take "ladders" for example. We actually had to add a KI to tell people to KEEP reporting them because to a player, this "seems" like a "simple" fix... it's just a ladder right? Little did they know it is something that Keeper has to go to the particular ladder and then hand remove/replant it. They're standing in the Market filing a bug report about a ladder they found two quests ago before they log out for the night. Half the time they didn't even get the quest name right because it was in part 3 of a 4 part quest chain. How does Keeper know where the ladder was?

A bit off topic: Funny thing, a couple of friends recently wondered if the real problem with ladders is Turbine fixing the wrong thing... You keep changing the single ladders and the bug still occurs almost everywhere (randomly). "Fixed" ladder works correctly if you go to it and start climbing from the bottom, the problem is 90% of players do not climb "properly" but run and jump on the ladder. And then if they are unlucky the bug triggers (some animation problem maybe) and then character starts dropping down instead of going up. The discussion happened in VON2 when one of us had the bug happen right after passing the bridge, killing the beholder and trying to jump up to climb. The player kept pressing up and his character dropped down into the void. We were really happy about the no-longer-fail-quest change

**AyumiAmakusa** · 08-02-2010, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Tolero

Don't know, "titan bug" could mean anything. That literally was the entire bug report.

Incidentally the particular report I'm talking about was from a long time ago and not applicable to the issue you're describing... so like I said.... "titan bug" could mean anything.

So are they going to fix the incorrect descriptions or not?

**Coldin** · 08-02-2010, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tolero

Don't know, "titan bug" could mean anything. That literally was the entire bug report.

Incidentally the particular report I'm talking about was from a long time ago and not applicable to the issue you're describing... so like I said.... "titan bug" could mean anything.

It could be a bug of titanic proportions!

**KillEveryone** · 08-02-2010, 01:39 PM

Even with known issues some of your people don't know the bug.

Shroud DC problem for example.

A while back I filled out a report.

The problem was that someone was DCing when someone clicked on the fourth portal. We all didn't die when we were supposed to and Arrietrokos went into his speech while we were all in part 4 waiting to die and when we did die it was after the point where we would all be raised but we didn't get raised.

I put that in the report as well as other party members. The person that got back to me said the issue isn't a known issue and couldn't do anything about it but the issue was on the forums and someone was able to do something about it for another group that had this problem.

Players shouldn't be more knowledgable of known bugs than your people.

**Tolero** · 08-02-2010, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by smatt

OK, see this is a good start... You see if there was a list IE: Known issues.... Where soemone one would say... "Hey we need some better info on what's happening with this reported bug" I'm betting you would get it.... That hasn't been the case in the past..... I can understand how it would be time consuming.. But I think a few hours spent doimg such a task ever week would SAVE a lot of time and resources in the end. Much easier to find those pesky critters when you know what to shake to get them to scurry about

So something like a "Looking For More" list? I could poke the QA peeps and see if they'd be interested in something like this, it could be very useful (and informative for players and staff ^^). If not as a static link at least as maybe a periodic feature at the House o' Bugs.

**Sutekx** · 08-02-2010, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Tolero

Don't know, "titan bug" could mean anything. That literally was the entire bug report.

Incidentally the particular report I'm talking about was from a long time ago and not applicable to the issue you're describing... so like I said.... "titan bug" could mean anything.

Ok but a report stating as such:

Issues with Recitation spell, Prayer Spell, Rage Spell. These spells are only effecting the caster acting as a single buff and not as an Area Of Effect buff to assist the party within the radius of said spells and they are not receiving the effects of the spells. Happens always, in every quest and in slayer areas.

**Tolero** · 08-02-2010, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Rodrak

A bit off topic: Funny thing, a couple of friends recently wondered if the real problem with ladders is Turbine fixing the wrong thing... You keep changing the single ladders and the bug still occurs almost everywhere (randomly). "Fixed" ladder works correctly if you go to it and start climbing from the bottom, the problem is 90% of players do not climb "properly" but run and jump on the ladder. And then if they are unlucky the bug triggers (some animation problem maybe) and then character starts dropping down instead of going up. The discussion happened in VON2 when one of us had the bug happen right after passing the bridge, killing the beholder and trying to jump up to climb. The player kept pressing up and his character dropped down into the void. We were really happy about the no-longer-fail-quest change

So (and Keeper can correct me on this if I'm wrong) my general understanding of the way ladders work is that they can get bustificated in two ways:
A) If they're too far in the ground
B) If many moons ago in DDO's early life, the ladder was made using multiple ladder chunks.

One requires Keeper to scoot the ladder out of the ground (or something like that), another requires her to yank the "pieces" out and put in a nice whole ladder. If you're jumping onto the ladder and it's borking, it's like problem B ... usually. I'm sure I said the above wrong :P Keeper can spank me if I'm giving erroneous ladder anatomy.

**AyumiAmakusa** · 08-02-2010, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Tolero

So (and Keeper can correct me on this if I'm wrong) my general understanding of the way ladders work is that they can get bustificated in two ways:
A) If they're too far in the ground
B) If many moons ago in DDO's early life, the ladder was made using multiple ladder chunks.

One requires Keeper to scoot the ladder out of the ground (or something like that), another requires her to yank the "pieces" out and put in a nice whole ladder. If you're jumping onto the ladder and it's borking, it's like problem B ... usually. I'm sure I said the above wrong :P Keeper can spank me if I'm giving erroneous ladder anatomy.

Seems to me a general re-work of ladders in general is in order because 'fixed' ladders seem to have a chance of triggering this 'bug' as well. I can't explain it very well but if you play long enough, you find that all ladders have a chance of triggering this 'bug' of being stuck and continuously repeating the same 'climb' animation over and over again.

**Tolero** · 08-02-2010, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Sutekx

Ok but a report stating as such:

Issues with Recitation spell, Prayer Spell, Rage Spell. These spells are only effecting the caster acting as a single buff and not as an Area Of Effect buff to assist the party within the radius of said spells and they are not receiving the effects of the spells. Happens always, in every quest and in slayer areas.

Yup that's a good description. This is one we've gotten good reports on last I knew (though how it got in that state is another story, and that can determine how/when it gets fixed. It kinda comes down to whether Genasi or Phax have to fix it... bad things happen if Phax has to fix it

and you know I'm just going to preemptively say that you never ever want Phax to have to fix something; not because he's not good at what he does, but because it means it's more elusive and the fixing is more complicated).

**zorander6** · 08-02-2010, 01:54 PM

Featherfall is a bit wonky as well. If I cast on myself usually one other party member in the radius of the spell does not get it, if I focus on said person everyone gets it. Dunno if anyone else is seeing this or just me.

Honestly if there was a "please give us more info on bugs we know about area" I'd happily try to test bugs and report as much info as I could. Problem is I don't know what's considered a bug and what is WAI for the game sometimes. For example, Pale Masters can use a spell to reduce the impact of summoning skeletons, is this a bug, an exploit, or is it WAI?

Radiant servant's aura, about 85% of the time when I use it the ability fires correctly, the other 15% I have to target myself to get it to fire.

**Tolero** · 08-02-2010, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by AyumiAmakusa

Seems to me a general re-work of ladders in general is in order because 'fixed' ladders seem to have a chance of triggering this 'bug' as well. I can't explain it very well but if you play long enough, you find that all ladders have a chance of triggering this 'bug' of being stuck and continuously repeating the same 'climb' animation over and over again.

I'll have to poke Keeper and see if there are any other types of situations that can cause the "sticky" ("looping climb" "broken ladder" "ladder rubber band" "infinite ladder climb" "dejavu ladder" everyone has a different description for it) situation. Any time I have it happen, it's on a ladder I haven't tried to climb before, and usually towards the bottom half rather than the top half of the ladder. Or on a ladder that I know to be broken but I'm not sure if Keeper's gotten a chance to correct. They're similar to "stuck spots" really.

Thread: Question on Known Issue/Bug Reporting

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