U5 combat feedback THF exclusively

[Cetus]

You guys realize that barbarians get to remove their 3 THF feat chain and substitute them for toughness. Fighters such as myself, have incorporated them as CLASS FEATS. This slot does not compete with toughness feats, which is in favor of barbarians to increase their defenses wrt fighters even more. What else am I to take that is as useful as toughness to a barb instead of these THF feats. This is not balanced between melee classes.

[Cetus]

Umm.. except everyone hits everything on a 2 in this game, even when moving, so no, it's not "perfectly balanced".



We've got vets on these boards right now who look upon non-twitchers as "bad players"



Even as I rail against twitching... I'm perfectly okay with the devs leaving combat alone and just removing the physics detection from the off-hand in TWF... I think one step at a time is much better way to troubleshoot a system.

If you aren't a kensai fighter and don't have an epic sos, chances are you have experienced some to hit issues in the game while twitching at some point, epic packmasters in the desert, wizard king, named minotaur in epic von1 (if you chose to fight him)..etc. The penalty exists, not saying that working our way around it isnt achievable, since most of us did anyway- but to the new or average player who isn't all geared out, twitching becomes a tradeoff in that department.

Just because veterans or experienced players such as the ones providing input in these boards have so intimately adapted it, does not mean that everyone will look down upon a melee who doesn't twitch. Again, its a playing preference.

You want to minimize the effectiveness of twitching? Improve the mobs AI instead, and make it more difficult for us to adapt, hence making those who master it even more skillful of a player- but in no way shape or form fiddle with our DPS.

I am going through subsequent TR's (thinking about completionist) to finish off my fighter, this news is atrocious in the face of those such as myself who have meticulously planned the building of his character to every detail, and then BOOM remove a very internal essence of the combat style that has been chosen.

Not exactly what I call good news.

[Kintro]

In addition to serious concern about the reduction in effectiveness and enjoyment factor of THF, I also wonder just how much this will address the issue.

My experience has been that lag has been an issue during specific times and quests. (For example, shroud parts 4 and 5, during peak play hours). Are moving glancing blows really the problem here?

It might help depending how things work now and how Turbine might change them in the future.

It's been said that calculating hits takes complicated maths and is one of the causes of lag. It's also true that the main areas we have problems with lag are ones where targets don't move very much (Shroud part 1/4/5, ToD).

Turbine could theoretically add a check to see if the attacker moved, if they didn't then check if the enemies they hit last round moved. Targets which didn't move either get passed straight to damage calculations skipping the complex hit calculations.

Discouraging moving when fighting in these situations would make such a change more effective.

Obviously this is all speculation and I have no clue what Turbine plans or how things even work currently.

[Chai]

See, when you make your case without using the word "shade," it just seems a lot more substantial and to the point. I hope they dont nerf glancing blows, for the same reasons you bring up here, among others, tho Im not entirely sure now whether you are arguing for or against it.. I could read the above both ways. I hope when I block a door with my S+B or two-handing cleric and swing my axe, that some of the baddies behind the main guy are going to be hit as well, because I know they are all going to be smacking me around without too much trouble, even when I am moving. Because there is no AC after lvl ten for me. Not to mention, glancing blows give my character more room to be useful in a group, as I can attach weapon procs to them.

I only really replied to something he directly said, and am not using his name in every sentence. I actually agree with what he says on most things. People are gravitating to using him as an example and directing comments at him because he champions the THF playstyle on the boards and shamelessly self promotes it.

I am arguing against the nerf instinctively, based on what Ive seen and heard so far, but am reserving final judgement for when I get to play it out on the test server. The reason why I am against this is because it takes alot away from THF signature combat style. This, and standing in one place and attacking is boring. Moving while attacking is one of the things that sets this game apart from other MMOS like WOW or EQ where you basically do static damage while standing in the same spot. I can write a macro that does this for me, where I cant do so for my THF combat style in DDO. If they REALLY want to nerf twitching (if this really is the case for the nerf) there are other ways to do this.

I will point out bad resoning on the other side though, like the AB sacrifice arguement, which has no impact, and does nothing to balance the fact that someone can increase the attack animation speed with no real drawbacks through twitching. Yeah there are situations where there is an impact, but when I see videos where people are twitch attacking epic raid bosses and not missing, I dont call -4 to hit for a decent increase in DPS a "balanced trade off." Thats like calling power attack a "balanced trade off" when people hit with roll of a 2 or higher with it on all the time anyhow, and they only miss on a 1 due to the house rule. People even trade 11 AB for 22 damage, and still hit on a 2 or better, and have found a way to do so by taking 4 more AB away to move while attacking to increase the animation speed.

[Chai]

You guys realize that barbarians get to remove their 3 THF feat chain and substitute them for toughness. Fighters such as myself, have incorporated them as CLASS FEATS. This slot does not compete with toughness feats, which is in favor of barbarians to increase their defenses wrt fighters even more. What else am I to take that is as useful as toughness to a barb instead of these THF feats. This is not balanced between melee classes.

~70 hp is ~one hit at epic level. If a barb loses all those feats, they are sacrificing dps at all times, and not just when moving. I wont lose my feats due to the nerf. I will have to alter my playstyle and twitch when its appropriate, which is single target DPS.

[Cetus]

I am arguing against it instinctively, based on what Ive seen and heard so far, but am reserving final judgement for when I get to play it out on the test server. The reason why I am against this is because it takes alot away from THF signature combat style. This, and standing in one place and attacking is boring. Moving while attacking is one of the things that sets this game apart from other MMOS like WOW or EQ where you basically do static damage while standing in the same spot. I can write a macro that does this for me, where I cant do so for my THF combat style in DDO. If they REALLY want to nerf twitching (if this really is the case for the nerf) there are other ways to do this.

I will point out bad resoning on the other side though, like the AB sacrifice arguement, which has no impact, and does nothing to balance the fact that someone can increase the attack animation speed with no real drawbacks through twitching.

It is not bad reasoning, believe me I have tested the twitching Attack deficit with different levels of minimal to moderate to high end gear especially in epic content. You very much see the difference. I am a max dps kensai fighter wielding an epic sos and I still see misses while twitching If I remove several to hit bonuses such as the kensai set, gh, and all rages. The ac of some mobs is simply in the high 50's low 60's. Very easy to get by with standard gear, but again, de-gearing urself to a moderate level is proven to reveal the drawbacks of twitching on ur to-hit--> which is what non-vets have to deal with until they acquire the gear needed to eliminate the drawback on twitching.

But if you have everything in the world and have mastered this game, things are SUPPOSED to be easier, hence the twitching efficiency is part of it. It is balanced enough to not touch it. You wanna make it harder? As if said, improve the mobs AI in a way where the mob would be harder to twitch at (speculating).

[Cetus]

~70 hp is ~one hit at epic level. If a barb loses all those feats, they are sacrificing dps at all times, and not just when moving. I wont lose my feats due to the nerf. I will have to alter my playstyle and twitch when its appropriate, which is single target DPS.

I will go through the grinds of TR'ing barbarian for 10hp, let alone 70.

Your reasoning is faulty in the sense that its 1 epic mob hit. Its 1 extra hit you can absorb, and that makes all the difference.

with regards to the feats, I am always moving when in combat.
Its quite boring to sit there and autoattack because I'm getting glances.

Read the description of the GTHF feat, it explicitly states glances while moving, that was its original purpose- and should not be changed for anything in the world.

[Shade]

has Cleave, and barbarians get intimidate as a class skill... AOE aggro is not hard for a barbarian...

He makes that multiple target aggro comment to disguise that what he really uses twitch for... Maximizing DPS on a single target.

I can tell your a big fan, and thats great. I appreciate the support.

But really my loyal fan, you need to understand that cleave is ONE OF THE WORST FEATS IN THE GAME. Anyone who uses cleave at the endgame is absolutely terrible at the game. Cleave in no way shape or form will ever speed up anything, not dps, not agro generation, not anything. Cleave with THF is EXTREMELY SLOW and thus - useless.

The fact Berserkers have to take cleave is a penalty, not a benefit. These are simple facts.

Far as disguising anything. I do not. If I cared to disguise what I believe makes the game fun, why would I make a video demonstrating and guide explaining to players - and of-course the devs exactly how to do it, and why it's useful?
I stay as blatantly honest and direct on this subject as I ever would, because I know this is a fun part of the game, and part of the game that is definitely here to will stay.

I'll repeat it for those who couldn't read it the first time due to there love for me:
If this change gets implemented - Stepping attack will still be a good boost to dps.

If it was a nerf, why wouldn't they go all the way and simply make that not so? Because they aren't nerfing it, and won't.

If anyone's disguising anything, it you disguising your opinion on the subject, you say nothing about it - all you talk about is me. And I get that you like me. But this not a Shade fan club thread. There's already lots of those on the forum.

[Chai]

I will go through the grinds of TR'ing barbarian for 10hp, let alone 70.

Your reasoning is faulty in the sense that its 1 epic mob hit. Its 1 extra hit you can absorb, and that makes all the difference.

with regards to the feats, I am always moving when in combat.
Its quite boring to sit there and autoattack because I'm getting glances.

Read the description of the GTHF feat, it explicitly states glances while moving, that was its original purpose- and should not be changed for anything in the world.

Then you are the minority, far to the right of the decimal point in terms of percentage. 10 hp? for a nice slow steamroll through 20 levels with more xp needed per level? How many other people do you believe will do this? Consider all players in the game before you answer this question. I certainly dont consider an 825 hp barbarian less worthy than an 835 hp barbarian.

I clearly understand the purpose and original intent of the GTHF feat, and if you read my posts, you will see that instinctively I disagree with the nerf, due to this very fact. I even talked about moving in combat setting this game apart from other games where you are required to stand inplace for max DPS, as well.

Also, if you have 3 toughness feats and you drop the GTHF line, your loss in dps will be such that you have to absorb more than one hit. Those 70 hp dont compare to the dps you would lose. And yes, after the nerf you WILL be standing still while fighting multiple mobs or you WILL be losing DPS. Sucks, and I dont agree with it, but its the truth.

I am still waiting until we can test it before I join all the collective moaning about results we havent even seen yet.

[Chai]

If it was a nerf, why wouldn't they go all the way and simply make that not so? Because they aren't nerfing it, and won't.

How would it be even possible go about nerfing stepping attack to the point where it provides less DPS than standing attack using the default animation? The conditional statement is: If you increase attack animation speed and still hit on a 2 or higher you increase DPS. They would have to make the default animation ALWAYS play through regardless of stepping or not to completely nerf it out of the game.

This "nerf" will highly impact DPS when attacking multiple mobs, as now moving + attacking will only hit one of them in a pile with no glances, which means no "twitch attack" in bottleneck situations if you want to damage more than one mob at a time. This is removing one of the barbarian's strengths, as well as other THF builds. It allows them to overpower multiple lesser foes jammed into a tight space. Heck, I even used this + killzone style strat during leveling before DA messed that all up.

[Thrudh]

I will go through the grinds of TR'ing barbarian for 10hp, let alone 70.

Really? Then we're in completely different worlds and it's hard to compare notes... Anyone who TRs a barbarian more than once, grinding out another 4.2 million exp (or whatever it is) for an extra 10 hps... well, I don't what to say...

You're definitely an outlier on the bell curve graph of obsessed DDO players...

[Thrudh]

Then you are the minority, far to the right of the decimal point in terms of percentage. 10 hp? for a nice slow steamroll through 20 levels with more xp needed per level? How many other people do you believe will do this? Consider all players in the game before you answer this question. I certainly dont consider an 825 hp barbarian less worthy than an 835 hp barbarian.

Heh, I responded before I read this... Nice that we both put him in the 0.0001% of players who would actually care about 10 extra hps on a BARBARIAN (not like you're lacking for hps already)

[BlackSteel]

anyone else notice that in the middle of the combat post its mentioned that THF will be re-evaluated later on behave similarly to TWF? (as in a % chance to proc on every hit, and not on certain attacks) with the right %, the change wouldnt be a nerf at all really.

[Khellendros13]

anyone else notice that in the middle of the combat post its mentioned that THF will be re-evaluated later on behave similarly to TWF? (as in a % chance to proc on every hit, and not on certain attacks) with the right %, the change wouldnt be a nerf at all really.

I hope Eladrin comes back ASAP to update his OP with all his comments, because 100+ pages is not something I will be trawling through for a few hours.

Shade, I respect your knowledge and experience with the game and especially THF/Barbarians, but how is losing glancing blows while "step attacking" NOT a nerf to having them while "step attacking"?

Even if it is 30-40 dmg every few hits, that is still a loss of DPS from what I can see. Am I missing something?

On a similar note, it would of been nice to have a working WF THF line before making this change.

[Cetus]

Heh its funny how people are placing me in the minority because I'll tr for 10 hp but...

Once you reach a point of saturation on your character with absolutely no way to improve him, you start delving into tr zones if it means you can give him something else. After 4 years of playing with numbers, performing tests, and tweaking and reworking the character- whats another 10 day grind gonna do...

Maximum damage output characters with a preferred playstyle such as shade and myself have no ac and no evasion to mitigate incoming damage. these builds will get hit back because they are meant to deal with aggro, your healthbar and dr are the only lines of defense (the latter applies moreso to barbs, fighters get dr solely as a function of gear, so they depend more on hp as offensive builds).

Anyone who has adapted THF as their chosen playstyle and have perfected it need no further explanation as to why shade is 100% correct in his previous post. You will still get more dps out of twitching even with the glancing blow nerf installed, and I will drop the GTHF feat because it will no longer be useful to me. Problem is barbs get the hp in return, fighters do not. Both of our glances have been taken away, but the barb has risen in his defenses- its just not a fair split in my eyes.

[Monkey_Archer]

Stepping attack will still be a good boost to dps.

A few numbers to look at:

Barbarian w/ min 2 greataxe:

90 base hits
7 holy
3.5 elemental
2.5 slicing
21 vicious
---
124 damage hits

540 base crit (x6)
7 holy
3.5 elemental
2.5 slicing
21 vicious
22 burst
---
595 damage crits

40 base glancing blows
21 vicious
---
61 damage glancing blows


(124 x 17 hits) + (595 x 2 crits) / 20 swings = 164.9 average damage per swing
61 x 9.5 hits / 20 swings = 29 average glancing blow per swing

29 / 164.9 = 17.6% of your dps while twitching or moving


So given that twitch attacking is only a roughly 20% increase in attack speed, I dont think twitching will increase dps much at all (it could possibly even lower dps for barbs)

[Monkey_Archer]

So back to my point...

Assuming this nerf somehow balances TWF an THF autoattack dps to be roughly equal...
and the change to glancing blows makes twitch attack roughly equal to autoattack dps...

Why, why, why would a moving THF do ~17% less dps then a moving TWF?

[krud]

you do realize the proposed changes nerf thf dps while moving, regardless of whether or not you're "twitching"

The proposed nerf to twitch THF is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Get rid of the twitch exploit, yes by all means, but please do not remove glancing blows while on the move. Stationary combat is boring.

[Aaxeyu]

So back to my point...

Assuming this nerf somehow balances TWF an THF autoattack dps to be roughly equal...
and the change to glancing blows makes twitch attack roughly equal to autoattack dps...

Why, why, why would a moving THF do ~17% less dps then a moving TWF?

It's not that unreasonable tbh.
If TWF and THF autoattack would be equal vs single target, there would be no point in playing TWF.
Making TWF better when you move and THF better against packs seems pretty fair to me.

[Monkey_Archer]

It's not that unreasonable tbh.
If TWF and THF autoattack would be equal vs single target, there would be no point in playing TWF.
Making TWF better when you move and THF better against packs seems pretty fair to me.

Ok, fair point.

On that point, the current TWF nerf numbers (80% offhand with GTWF) still has the average TWF significantly higher single target dps then THF.
How do you propose THF single target gets buffed? or should TWF be nerfed back to the original numbers? (55% offhand)