Time for a global rebalance of named items

[Eladiun]

/signed

Browsing the static loot thread more than half the items fall into the why bother category.

[Angelus_dead]

Something else you might want to address is a couple pieces of ML:9 named loot that is still considered must have gear for AC tanks at level 20. (Either through changing how Dodge bonuses from items works or adding the +2/+3 versions to other named loot out there.)

Yes, items like Chaosgarde and Chattering Ring are problems, but in a different way from the focus of this suggestion. Instead of being too weak to be worth using, they are excessively good (which indicates a missed opportunity for other nice loot). However, if they were to be changed it would be better to do it as part of the global rebalance.

The core problem with those AC items is the Dodge-typed bonus which means they'd stack with too much, preventing the devs from adding similar items of different magnitude, and causing too big of a gap between characters with and without those items. When you acquire Chattering Ring your AC goes up +3, with no way you could have had a +1 or +2 bonus in that slot instead.

Two approaches to fix those items:
1. The more ambitious method is to set them to how they should have originally been designed: instead of having a Dodge bonus on items, make it some other bonus type so they don't stack with each other. (Maybe even make it Insight so they won't stack with greensteel weapons and such).

To do that would reduce the number of body slots to have top AC, the looting effort to get AC gear, and the numerical difference from characters without that gear. Those are worthwhile goals, but the peak player AC would go down, so something like that should only be attempted as part of a gamewide attack and AC revamp. (And even then, many players would be upset that items they worked hard for are no longer as important). Once that's done, new rings and bracers can be added with 1-5 bonus AC on them.

2. A less elegant method is to look at the existing Chaosgarde/Chattering items and create new items which are identical in the slots and AC bonus but which carry other effects to shift the overall value. For example, a lesser alternative to Chatter could be +3 AC -2 attack, while a superior replacement could be +3 AC +6 dex. A replacement Chaosgarde could have +2 AC 10% healing amp, and so on.

PS. Either way you do it would reduce the attractiveness of running Twilight Forge, further emphasizing the need to make the other loot from that place worth having.

[Saaluta]

Some miscellaneous comments and suggestions on loot rebalancing.

Set Bonuses
When looking for ways to improve mid-level items, set bonuses are an easy technique to keep in mind. Have a piece of Delera or Sorrowdusk loot that's not quite worth using? Toss Anger's Wrath or Nimble Grasp onto it.

Don't make the mistake of thinking a set bonus can only apply to a specific list of items. They can function more generally as abilities that activate when you have multiple corresponding items equipped. There is a ton of flexibility to give many kinds of bonuses. And all of a set doesn't have to come from the same place.

Penalties on Items
The first wave of named loot in DDO often had minor penalties on it, like -1 to an ability score or -2 will saves. But that kind of variety has only rarely appeared since then. It is a useful tool to allow named items to be boosted up to a valuable level of power, while still not becoming superior to similar items which are harder to acquire.

Making clickies useful
Most items which actively cast a spell are non-useful. Here are some ideas that could help make them more valuable:

1. Remember that offensive clickies are less valuable than buff/curative ones, and spells with a save or damage are weaker than irresistable flat debuffs. For example, a Heal clicky would be great, but a Disintegrate clicky is almost worthless. So it is inaccurate to treat every effect that's "X uses of a level Y spell" as the same value.

2. Higher caster level, especially as it applies to buff duration. For example, there's no item with Protection From Evil for more than 1 minute at a time.

2b. You don't necessarily need to stay consistent with the caster level for all aspects of the spell. It could be good to make an item with 2 minutes of Fire Resist 30 or Greater Heroism 60 seconds x3 uses.

3. Higher DC, as if the creator had an intelligence/wisdom bonus. (In fact, the current clicky DC is less than the minimum allowed by the D&D item creation rules)

4. Emulate the effects of Potency, Maximize, and Empower on offensive clickies.

5. For certain items, allow the wielder to substitute his own ability score modifiers for purposes of spell DC, which is how magic staves work in the D&D rules. Optionally such items could exact a price in spellpoints too.

6. Some could have less cooldown than the standard 6 seconds.

7. Regenerating uses. Some clickies could recover charges over time, but only when below some certain limit.

8. Unlimited use. For an especially weak clicky effect, such as Remove Exhaustion on Endless Toil bracers, it may as well have infinite uses. The cooldown and casting time may be enough of a penalty to pay for the spell effect.

9. Some spells would be so attractive as clickies that the devs should be very careful about adding them, and attach huge limitations if they do, especially things like Ram's Might, Zeal, and Holy Sword (!)


Threnal Warblade suggestion
Make it a tiny bit like Shroud crafting. The ingredients come from end chests around Threnal and are bind on acquire. The six ingredients are used in pairs, one to determine slot and one to pick from three allowed effects. The base item on completing the Threnal warrior initiation challenge is a greatsword, longsword, or dagger with +4 Seeker2 Silver Cold Iron and Minor Arcane Lore.

Slot 1 effects are a +4 enhancement bonus to strength, dexterity, or constitution

Slot 2 effects:
a. Shocking Burst, Superior Magnetism VI
b. Acid Burst, Superior Corrosion VI
c. Slicing, Everbright, Superior Reconstruction VI, Greater Devotion V

Slot 3 effects:
a. Lesser Giant Bane, Enchantment Focus
b. Lesser Abberation Bane, Transmutation Focus
c. Lesser Outsider Bane, Evocation Focus

In addition, some named items from Threnal (like Theurgic Staff and Jeweled Hammer) could include one or two slots for Threnal ingredients, to give those weapons a reason to be used.

I tend to agree with most of your upgrades for Threanalian WarBlade, but would be better to make the slot 3 effects regular banes rather than lesser. After all, you can get greater banes on level 8 weapons(6 for rr) So regular banes wouldn't make these too overpowered

Saal

[SquelchHU]

I tend to agree with most of your upgrades for Threanalian WarBlade, but would be better to make the slot 3 effects regular banes rather than lesser. After all, you can get greater banes on level 6 weapons(4 for rr) So regular banes wouldn't make these too overpowered

Saal

Fixed.

[maddmatt70]

Angelus_Dead I am getting tired of the lets go back and eek out what we can of old content mentality that epic has reinforced. Seriously can not they put in new content that has properly balanced items? Does "precious dev time" have to be wasted on this old content when it should perhaps be put on making new items and new dungeons now. It has only been 8 months since we last had a new raid which is totally lame.

[totmacher]

nah, i'm against this, a global pass at items would break too many things, it's better to subtly influence it through introducing new mid-level items. revamping all items makes old broken items powerful and old working items broken. it's too much of a change

plus, this would be a heck of a project, it's fun to think that there is infinite developer time but that's not how any development project works. i would prefer time spent on retouching old items be allocated towards PrCs or new content as opposed to fixing old items, fixing old content sure but not items

and not to criticise, but this is the main problem with idea people: they're great at in theory, they're horrible at banging something out that doesn't mean they're BAD IDEAS just bad plans when you actually consider a realistic big picture

[Yaga_Nub]

...

and not to criticise, but this is the main problem with idea people: they're great at in theory, they're horrible at banging something out that doesn't mean they're BAD IDEAS just bad plans when you actually consider a realistic big picture

Tot, I'm an idea person and I'm great at banging out things, just ask y*** ***!

[totmacher]

Tot, I'm an idea person and I'm great at banging out things, just ask y*** ***!

nope, you have to have a brain to have an idea

GET A BRAIN MORAN

[Angelus_dead]

nah, i'm against this, a global pass at items would break too many things, it's better to subtly influence it through introducing new mid-level items.

That would be both ineffective and bad.

plus, this would be a heck of a project, it's fun to think that there is infinite developer time but that's not how any development project works.

What a non sequitur.

and not to criticise, but this is the main problem with idea people: they're great at in theory, they're horrible at banging something out

What's that supposed to have to do with anything?

Really, that's a ludicrous thing to say.

[Angelus_dead]

Angelus_Dead I am getting tired of the lets go back and eek out what we can of old content mentality that epic has reinforced. Seriously can not they put in new content that has properly balanced items? Does "precious dev time" have to be wasted on this old content when it should perhaps be put on making new items and new dungeons now.

Unless you're proposing deleting hundreds of dungeons from the game, then old areas deserve balanced items just as much as new places do.

They're old, not gone. Turbine is trying to get new users for DDO, and new customers don't get a warning sign that Sorrowdusk is old but Sentinels is new. Plus, its not as if new places don't also have bad items.

It has only been 8 months since we last had a new raid which is totally lame.

Yes, but most of the effort for a new raid would be from different kinds of developers. (Although it's true that the new raid loot is also an important part). But the first step to having new raid-like content would be for the devs to take a hard look at Epic mode and what it is and isn't accomplishing.

[QuantumFX]

Yes, items like Chaosgarde and Chattering Ring are problems, but in a different way from the focus of this suggestion. Instead of being too weak to be worth using, they are excessively good (which indicates a missed opportunity for other nice loot). However, if they were to be changed it would be better to do it as part of the global rebalance.

The core problem with those AC items is the Dodge-typed bonus which means they'd stack with too much, preventing the devs from adding similar items of different magnitude, and causing too big of a gap between characters with and without those items. When you acquire Chattering Ring your AC goes up +3, with no way you could have had a +1 or +2 bonus in that slot instead.

Two approaches to fix those items:
1. The more ambitious method is to set them to how they should have originally been designed: instead of having a Dodge bonus on items, make it some other bonus type so they don't stack with each other. (Maybe even make it Insight so they won't stack with greensteel weapons and such).

To do that would reduce the number of body slots to have top AC, the looting effort to get AC gear, and the numerical difference from characters without that gear. Those are worthwhile goals, but the peak player AC would go down, so something like that should only be attempted as part of a gamewide attack and AC revamp. (And even then, many players would be upset that items they worked hard for are no longer as important). Once that's done, new rings and bracers can be added with 1-5 bonus AC on them.

2. A less elegant method is to look at the existing Chaosgarde/Chattering items and create new items which are identical in the slots and AC bonus but which carry other effects to shift the overall value. For example, a lesser alternative to Chatter could be +3 AC -2 attack, while a superior replacement could be +3 AC +6 dex. A replacement Chaosgarde could have +2 AC 10% healing amp, and so on.

PS. Either way you do it would reduce the attractiveness of running Twilight Forge, further emphasizing the need to make the other loot from that place worth having.

And you’re adding this to the OP when? While I agree that the 2nd option is less elegant I think it’s the only option the devs know how to do. (Also, IMO, the Forge will have a serious resurgence the moment we get the epic version.)

[Gunga]

And you’re adding this to the OP when? While I agree that the 2nd option is less elegant I think it’s the only option the devs know how to do. (Also, IMO, the Forge will have a serious resurgence the moment we get the epic version.)

I'm not running them right now. Figure I'll be running them a lot in the future.

[QuantumFX]

Figure I'll be running them a lot in the future.

If the epic VoN loot is any indication - indeed. (Considers the possibilities for the epic Titan Belt, Gyroscopic Boots and Seven Fingered Gloves. Mmmmm…)

[Falco_Easts]

As a short term fix, what are your thoughts on an enhancement (or possibly feat) line that would allow the use of trained meta magics on clickies/wands? Using an additional charge for each meta used.

[Kyrn]

Another note: Just checking, what is the policy on joke items (aka items of no practical use, and/or items which have a negative impact in general)?

(Still trying to find a good use out of Bete Noir)

[FluffyCalico]

Unless you're proposing deleting hundreds of dungeons from the game, then old areas deserve balanced items just as much as new places do.

.

Again please show me where balanced means buff the weak?

We all know somethings are way more powerful and some things are very weak. But the thing you fail to be willing to see is its not the weak things that are out of balance. We aren't even playing in a high magic game any more we are playing a super ultra mega high magic world now.

To put it simply take every single piece of gear a high level player wears and every single item an TR would be caught dead wearing while re leveling and nerf it all to heck and then you would have balance. You do NOT want to be the person who brings that. People will go nuts if all their toys get nerfed. Look at the tiny change to min2 in the past. Seriously the whole game is so overpowered you can't possible say overpowering the few things that aren't will bring balance back to the force. The weak items (correct ones) aren't the issue. The brokenly overpowered ones are.

[Angelus_dead]

Another note: Just checking, what is the policy on joke items (aka items of no practical use, and/or items which have a negative impact in general)?
(Still trying to find a good use out of Bete Noir)

It's true that not all items need to be useful in gameplay, as rewards players can use to improve their ability to face later challenges. Some can be decorative and make the world seem more real, as if they are the items that the enemy you just defeated would logically have possessed. Others can be comical or whatever, as long as its entertaining.

But even allowing for joke items, there are still too much poor named loot in DDO.

[Angelus_dead]

I'm really confused now. Your entire thread is about re-balancing items which are out of balance which always results in nerfs of the powerful
...
Pretty much 90% of the re-balancing will be nerfs, its always is.

Those statements are not true, so your conclusions derived from them are also false.

Again please show me where balanced means buff the weak?

That is an invalid compound question. The person to whom I was replying didn't want any balance changes made to old items, either nerfs or buffs. He wanted the developers to leave it alone and work on new content.

Whether balance changes might turn out as buffs or nerfs was not pertinent to his concern.

[FluffyCalico]

not true

[Schwarzie]

I am aware when you have no point that you like to play word games. All it does is prove you don't have a valid responce.

Umm, maybe its becaue im no native speaker, but for me his first post sounded as if he would prefer buffing weak items before nerfing too strong items.

Note that to minimize player dissatisfaction, the emphasis on adjusting items should be to improve bad ones rather than weaken those that might be too good. It just feels worse to look at something in your inventory and see something that's lost specific features it once had.

Yup, sounds that way...

So, who exactly is here playing wordgames?