Time for a global rebalance of named items

[Angelus_dead]

I am aware when you have no point that you like to play word games. All it does is prove you don't have a valid responce.

That is blatantly untrue, and also a violation of the forum rules.

[Glenalth]

With the addition of Suppressed Power to the Dreamsplitter from the Reaver Raid, I'm hoping that we'll see some of that on the Quori related stuff in Twilight Forge.

While the Suppressed Powers themselves have been fairly lackluster, the ability to extend the lifespan (or even make the item viable at all in some cases) would be nice.

Now they just need to fix that Dreamsplitter so it fits in the **** Dreamforge so we can see what happens, I'm hoping for Aligned.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Note that to minimize player dissatisfaction, the emphasis on adjusting items should be to improve bad ones rather than weaken those that might be too good. It just feels worse to look at something in your inventory and see something that's lost specific features it once had.

Definitely one of the most important things to remember--nerfing existing loot is a good way to drive players away (look how many people left over the WoP nerf!). Balancing doesn't necessitate nerfing (at least not direct nerfing). Even if something is too powerful, players are far more receptive to environmental nerfs (i.e. making monsters more resistant to an effect or some other change that makes the item worse without actually changing the item itself) than they are to direct nerfs, especially to items they've had and used for a long time.

[Kistilan]

That is blatantly untrue, and also a violation of the forum rules.

I'm with Fluffy on this one and I like how you lean on the DeFacto.

By the way, shouldn't this thread be entitled:

"It's About Time to Consider A Global Rebalance for Named Items, Turbine?"

This way, we can ensure a proper quality control and get all the primary debators and spectators interested on the next big respec movement. The Respec Wars was a battle: Global Rebalancing the Game is the End of Antiquities.

FWIW: I don't play anymore, but the game needs a final rebalance of some type so that the cookie-cutter mold is broken and the dynamics return to inspired variety versus sustained sobriety.

[Angelus_dead]

With the addition of Suppressed Power to the Dreamsplitter from the Reaver Raid, I'm hoping that we'll see some of that on the Quori related stuff in Twilight Forge.

That response appears pertinent to this other suggestion thread:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=220912

Note that the thread I just linked was posted before the devs added the (nonfunctional) Suppressed Power to Dreamspitter. It mentions a change like what you want: adding Suppressed Power to five Twilight Forge items. And yes, a way to beat the DR/Good of a Quori would be a natural feature for Dreamspitter.

[HumanJHawkins]

Definitely one of the most important things to remember--nerfing existing loot is a good way to drive players away <Cut>

You don't have to nerf existing loot to do this. You just change the effects on new drops. Old stuff will temporarily become really valuable. But Players leave without deleting toons and giving stuff away, stuff gets bound over time, or broken, etc. So it's not a big deal to let the existing stuff stand even if it is too powerful. It will even out in time.

[Angelus_dead]

As mentioned in the first post, it's safest (in terms of terms of players' emotional response) to avoid nerfing anything, and instead find things to buff. So hopefully the problem you're discussing wouldn't have to come up.

You don't have to nerf existing loot to do this. You just change the effects on new drops.

If new drops are getting more powerful then that's mostly fine (although it can cause some grumbling, such as someone who recently picked a 20th raid loot as the older weaker version of something). But if the old items were better than the new ones that can cause a serious problem, with older characters having abilities that new ones simply can't match.

Note that the alternative of retroactively changing existing items can cause unhappiness too. Any change will make someone unhappy somewhere.

Old stuff will temporarily become really valuable. But Players leave without deleting toons and giving stuff away, stuff gets bound over time, or broken, etc. So it's not a big deal to let the existing stuff stand even if it is too powerful. It will even out in time.

Given the DDO mechanics, the time it would take for old items to crumble away would likely be excessive. Even if the old items do fall out of circulation quickly or become obsolete, it will still cause resentment by many players, who dislike unfairness even when it doesn't really matter.

[Fafnir]

Excellent points OP

[Tarnoc]

well although you state balancing itmes will help new players.....currently only f2p have any problems getting to lvl 20...it takes only 17 days to lvl a second time TR toon....Thus any rebalancing would have to bring more lvl 9 to 14 items into end game loot......will this be over powering??it will be alot of time for the turbine team( notice i dont try and state this person or that department ) to do these things.....

At this point in the game IMO they need to keep high end content going more PREs more explorer areas(and go back to named loot like the desert as its the only explorer area still ransacked regularly by capped toons) more races and epic lvling mechanism to make 20 not be the end....... do it based on say raid completions as that would make it time based and you wouldnt have people at cap 6 hours after it goes live.........I.E. 20 epic velah completions ona mostly ranger might give him favoured enemy dragons...fighters could get say hardened skin for extra DR(pulled these outta my hat but you get the drift if turbine used thier imagination and looked to us for effects im sure it would become awesome)

those are much more constructive uses to time to make this game go further and last longer then spending time on loot that still maynot be used at end game (obtainable in 5 days easy non TR and 17 days double TR)

[Jay203]

hm... A_D
if the named loots are to be readjusted to make them "useful" something's gotta be done with the greensteel
every weapon is being compared to greensteel weapons for dps
every accessories is being compared to the possibility from the greensteel items
let's face it, greensteel made 90+% of the named items useless
so if we really want to make all the items be useful again, take out greensteel or at least nerf the **** out of it

[Auran82]

I have suggested a number of times that as well as making improvements to the old named loot around, it might be an idea to have another rarity of items added (or even another 2) that sits somewhere between your normal items and the named ones.

Something like a rarity of items which are still randomly created but:
- Can have an extra pre-fix or suffix
- Has a reduced pool of pre-fixs and suffixs to choose from (removing some of the lower tiers of weighted for example) but might also be able to have special ones like the various greensteel effects on weapons or exceptional stats on especially high level items for example
- Can be generated with a random set bonus

The sets for example would be ones added into the game (say 20 different types) which can appear on any higher tier quality of item and have useful bonuses. While this might still end up with some weird and useless items, it would help to bring back the excitement when opening a chest and seeing one of these higher quality items in there (with a special border, some kind of different name etc) and looking at it to see what you got. This might also help give some of the less used named item a use, as everyone wouldn't necessarily be using almost the exact same items.

[Angelus_dead]

hm... A_D
if the named loots are to be readjusted to make them "useful" something's gotta be done with the greensteel
every weapon is being compared to greensteel weapons for dps

It's true that that's a big problem. But of course someone could start off with the easy part and work on items usuable at level 1-11, before Greensteel is available. At higher levels some assumptions must be made about how a weapon should compare to greensteel, but simply dropping from a level 12+ quest does not immediately need it has to be similar to greensteel in overall power. That's especially true if the weapon fills a role different from the most popular greensteels (mineral and lightning)

It's only the epic weapons where you can start to say that tier3 greensteel is really the minimum they should be balanced around.

[Angelus_dead]

well although you state balancing itmes will help new players.....currently only f2p have any problems getting to lvl 20...it takes only 17 days to lvl a second time TR toon....Thus any rebalancing would have to bring more lvl 9 to 14 items into end game loot......will this be over powering??it will be alot of time for the turbine team

While it's true that lower level items have less of a long term impact on game balance, it's also true that first impressions matter. When new players see that many named items they find at level 1-12 are poorly designed, they'll not only be unhappy in the near term, but also lose confidence that the devs will do a better job later.

[Kistilan]

While it's true that lower level items have less of a long term impact on game balance, it's also true that first impressions matter. When new players see that many named items they find at level 1-12 are poorly designed, they'll not only be unhappy in the near term, but also lose confidence that the devs will do a better job later.

Responding to red: This has never been an issue in the last 4 years.

[Auran82]

Responding to red: This has never been an issue in the last 4 years.

Turbine haven't been advertising for the last 4 years.

If you look at a large majority of low level named items, most of them are pretty bad and don't make alot of sense, this is probably including the first 2 raids released (titan and von) many of the items from there I can honestly not tell you what character would use them. On the other hand, there are also some fantastic items too.

Not every item needs to be a Bloodstone or Chattering ring at those levels, but they should at least be worth equipping.

[Tarnoc]

While it's true that lower level items have less of a long term impact on game balance, it's also true that first impressions matter. When new players see that many named items they find at level 1-12 are poorly designed, they'll not only be unhappy in the near term, but also lose confidence that the devs will do a better job later.

well most new players tend to be coming from other games so they understand wat the word DEV means.....and secondly from my experience with new players they see greensteel and could care less about any other named item even the ones that us vets still use and are a must have item......So im not seeing how doing anythign with old low lvl named loot is gonna do anything but waste dev time......time that could be used on thing that me and others have suggested already before

[Cyr]

Note that the alternative of retroactively changing existing items can cause unhappiness too. Any change will make someone unhappy somewhere.

There is a third path one which Turbine has used in the past. Create new 'buffed' items where the need is seen. These new items are what drop from new runs of quests. Keep existing items that people have untouched with the option that they can throw it into an alter with another 'special' item like a scroll of dispel magic to change it to the new version of the item.

This was done when they reworked some of the desert epic items. It is a fair and logical method of implementing changes to items. Let people keep their old gear if for some reason it is better for them, but also let them change it to the new version if they want.

[Angelus_dead]

Responding to red: This has never been an issue in the last 4 years.

That claim does not resemble reality.

[osirisisis]

Excellent post.... Simply Brilliant +1 and /signed

I to tho would add a focus on Green steel.

In my opinion the true minimum level requirements for a Green Steal mineral 2 weapon if it came out of a random loot table would look something to the tune of:

+5 min lvl 8
+2 damage min lvl 2
holy min lvl 4
burst min lvl 2
metalline min lvl 4
bleed min lvl 2
+4 incite AC min lvl 8

for a total of a min level requirement of 30

Is it really to much to ask, and not a logical step in the right direction to move GS min level requirement to 16 from 12?

I think this would achieve:
1. Some slight but desperately needed help for random loot levels 12 to 15.
2. More possible viability to the Death nip, and other Necro tome page weapons and maybe some Abbot Raid gear.
3. Address a long over due nerf of a grossly over powered perversion of the AD&D crafting rule set.

[Yaga_Nub]

Excellent post.... Simply Brilliant +1 and /signed

I to tho would add a focus on Green steel.

In my opinion the true minimum level requirements for a Green Steal mineral 2 weapon if it came out of a random loot table would look something to the tune of:

+5 min lvl 8
+2 damage min lvl 2
holy min lvl 4
burst min lvl 2
metalline min lvl 4
bleed min lvl 2
+4 incite AC min lvl 8

for a total of a min level requirement of 30

Is it really to much to ask, and not a logical step in the right direction to move GS min level requirement to 16 from 12?

I think this would achieve:
1. Some slight but desperately needed help for random loot levels 11 to 15.
2. More possible viability to the Death nip, and other Necro tome page weapons and maybe some Abbot Raid gear.
3. Address a long over due nerf of a grossly over powered perversion of the PnP crafting rule set.

I've always said that as soon as you get the first two tiers of enhancements placed on a GS item the ML should go from level 12 to 14 and when you put the final tier on it should go from 14 to 16. That was at level cap of 16. Now that we cap at 20 I would say that the ML for the third tier should be increased to 18.