Offer Wall Update

[Magusrex777]

FWIW I tried disney and discover on win 98 computer that I tested before I logged on to the wall. Clean reg, no viruses. Ran Zone Alarm, Kapersky and Symantec after, no errors, no spyware, no registry errors. Doesn't mean it didn't happen to someone else but it does not mean what I say is substantiated anymore than what anyone else said. I am glad the offer wall is down. I think it was mistake.

[DreadDormammu]

Perhaps it might have been a wise step to read up on the subject before wading in late and calling into question other posters' posts as unsubstantiated.

In fact I had. I had seen the posts by Jaismine, and even though I am inclined to believe him/her, at this point her claim is unsubstantiated. Did she posts the itemized entries in question somewhere that I haven't seen? I have been through it quite thoroughly (and there is a lot of information/verbiage to go through).

To the next point, if you are going to assert that Turbine has made a breach of their confidentiality agreement with the customer, you must provide evidence. In fact, it has been clearly demonstrated earlier in this thread* that Turbine did NOT breach their privacy guidelines. Where does this leave privacy breach case? Unsubstantiated, to say the least.

* http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=313

[Lerincho]

Let it go.

Turbine will never be able to satisfy all of us or make all of us happy. Turbine made a mistake and has since apologized for it. That is more than Toyota, or any of the financial companies that went bankrupt in 2008 have done.

Now, let it go. Turbine has answered all the questions they are going to, and would not/should not inform anyone outside of the company if someone is actually terminated. That would be a breach of privacy and the Department of Labor would take exception to that, if it occurred.

No need to gather further evidence, no need to bicker amongst each other about the merits of the issue.

It is over, the wall is down and they have apologized. Move on

[DevKiller]

In fact I had. I had seen the posts by Jaismine, and even though I am inclined to believe him/her, at this point her claim is unsubstantiated. Did she posts the itemized entries in question somewhere that I haven't seen? I have been through it quite thoroughly (and there is a lot of information/verbiage to go through).

To the next point, if you are going to assert that Turbine has made a breach of their confidentiality agreement with the customer, you must provide evidence. In fact, it has been clearly demonstrated earlier in this thread* that Turbine did NOT breach their privacy guidelines. Where does this leave privacy breach case? Unsubstantiated, to say the least.

* http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=313

Well Gol had started his testing and once he did the wall came down 20 minutes after that so he was not able to collect the proof or no proof.

The beginings of testing did not look good for Turbine either but without further testing we have to take them at their word that they did not violate their pricvacy policy.

What gets my goat is the only reason they took it down was becasue of Gol and the commmunity calling them out on it. Had noone said anything and they were making money then they would have left it where it was.

I also have to ask the question of why take it down if nothing bad was actually happening according to them. If they were within the rights of the privacy policy and felt their partners were ligit then why take it down?

I don't think they took it down just becasue of the community demanding it, by the admition of many who posted this is a first for a gaming company. So my assumption is that they knew something was wrong and because they got caught they stopped, this is an assumption of course but I think it is a pretty good one.

My opinion although interesting... is irrelavant.

[DreadDormammu]

They said they read all the pertinent information relating to the subject matter and obviously didn't.

If you think I am missing pertinent information, please point it out to me. I have and am still reading up diligently on this.

Also they believe that in every company it's ok for an employee to lose the company money and keep their job as long as you say 'Oops. It was a mistake.

Wow! Double strawman FTL!

A. Show where I asserted that I believe in EVERY company it's ok for an employee (singular again?) to lose the company money and keep their job as long as you say 'Oops. It was a mistake.

B. Demonstrate the employee responsible for Super Rewards has lost Turbine money. You are not simply ASSUMING this, are you? No, you are obviously privy to Turbine financial information that other people are not. I hope the sardonic nature of this item is not lost on anyone, I hate having to explain my jokes.

Now, it's time to play "Make believe to state the obvious to the oblivious!" Let's pretend there is a guy, Dormammu, that works for a trucking company in Iowa. He is in charge of three of the companies accounts, A, B, and C. Now, last year accounts A and B made $1000 and $500, respectively, but C lost $200.

Pop Quiz!

Did Dormammu:

A. Lose the company $200, and needs to be fired.

B. Gained the company $1300, and should be retained.

Now, before the Gotcha Police get the riot gear out, I cannot assert this. I don't know if Turbine Employee A (Responsible for Super Rewards Fiasco) had any other responsibilities. The thing is, neither do any of you. You all (the "Lets the Heads Roll Group) are so darn eager to see head rolls, you quite frankly don't care. That is why Turbine isn't going to listen to buzzheads on the forum on who to fire and who to retain. Most of the forum goers are totally irrelevant to their interior discussions and policies. Get real.

[Pfold]

See the bolded section....

http://www.turbine.com/news/58

Except in the cases described below, Turbine will not share personally identifiable information with any third-party unless the user agrees to such disclosure in advance.

Turbine may occasionally hire other companies to provide limited services on our behalf, including, without limitation, packaging, mailing and delivering purchases, answering customer questions about products or services, sending postal mail, providing billing and collection services, conducting customer surveys, and processing event registration. We will only provide these companies the information reasonably required to perform the applicable service, and they will be prohibited from using that information for any other purpose. When these companies collect and/or have access to the personally identifiable information you provide, we require that they protect the confidentiality of personally identifiable information they collect or have access to in the course of their engagement by Turbine.
Also, in certain cases, your personally identifiable information may be collected directly by our authorized distributors, sublicensees or subcontractors in connection with certain products or services made available through web sites operated by such companies. In these cases, the privacy policies of such companies will apply rather than Turbine's policy. If providing the information is a requirement of usage, the user may elect to decline to use that particular product or service.
Turbine may elect to share personally identifiable information of users with certain business partners for marketing or other similar purposes but only if the users agree to share such information. In such event, such partners will be prohibited from disclosing such information or using such information except for the limited purposes for which such users agree to share such information. With respect to users of products and services relating to DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ONLINETM: StormreachTM (including, without limitation, forums and chat rooms), your personally identifiable information will be shared with Atari, Inc. or its affiliates ("Atari"). Atari's use of such information will be subject to the privacy policy of Atari found at http://www.atari.com/us/privacy and Turbine's use of such information will be subject to this Privacy Policy.
Furthermore, third-party web sites and companies with links to and from the Turbine Sites and Services may collect personally identifiable information about users. You should be aware that these third-party web sites or links may have their own information collection practices and privacy policies. We do not control the privacy policies of third parties that have web sites linked to the Turbine Sites and Services. If you click on a third-party advertisement or link, the privacy policies of the third-party web site that you link to will govern the use of your information by that web site's operator. Turbine's Privacy Policy does not extend to these external web sites and companies. Please refer directly to these companies and web sites regarding their privacy policies. We assume no responsibility or liability for the actions of such third parties with respect to their use of your information or otherwise. Accordingly, please make sure you are aware of and comfortable with the privacy policies of any third-party web sites to which you follow a link.

Ok, the jist of all that was highlighted is this: 3rd parties 'may collect' info if you "If you click on a third-party advertisement or link..", but that doesn't say anything about Turbine and/or Playwhatever-their-name-is voluntarily distributing that information. The problem is that noone was notified that just by viewing (not clicking) that any information is sent. Going beyond that, no option was given to the user. Personally I didn't use it, but was there a splash page of sorts or anything that would givethe user a better idea of what the 3rd parties privacypolies were prior to any information being sent? Best case scenario is what Turbine did was extremely sketchy. Worst case is that someone better versed in both their policies, the policies of the individualvenders and evidence of what transpired gets pushed further.

All I know is this... ...I call a roofer to make a repair on my home. They see a pool in my yard. The next couple of days I get telephone solicitors trying to sell me a maintenance plan. Same difference. As many others have openly suggested, in Turbine's best interests, regardless if the customer base's allegations hold water or not, they should sever ties with the company that was involved in this situation. Again, wrong or right, if the customer is unhappy do they dare to tread further? A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

[DreadDormammu]

Well Gol had started his testing and once he did the wall came down 20 minutes after that so he was not able to collect the proof or no proof.

The beginings of testing did not look good for Turbine either but without further testing we have to take them at their word that they did not violate their pricvacy policy.

Gol's work was excellent. He did a lot to establish the actual facts of the situation. It is a shame his work couldn't continue.

As far as taking Turbine's word, I don't have to. Even with as resourceful as Gol is, there are people more resourceful. If it can be demonstrated that privacy was breached outside of the scope of their policy and what they admitted to, Turbine will get their rears nailed to a wall in court. I know people have a hard time understanding this, but Turbine does not control the interwebs. If they need to sweep anything under a rug, they are limited in their scope to do so.

What gets my goat is the only reason they took it down was becasue of Gol and the commmunity calling them out on it. Had noone said anything and they were making money then they would have left it where it was.

But they may not have known about it if no one spoke up!

I also have to ask the question of why take it down if nothing bad was actually happening according to them. If they were within the rights of the privacy policy and felt their partners were ligit then why take it down?

Most likely, they couldn't establish for sure one way or another if Super rewards was safe, and that is why they pulled it. Not everything is black and white.

I don't think they took it down just becasue of the community demanding it, by the admition of many who posted this is a first for a gaming company. So my assumption is that they knew something was wrong and because they got caught they stopped, this is an assumption of course but I think it is a pretty good one.

My opinion although interesting... is irrelavant.

I don't think your opinion is irrelevant at all, in fact you address some very good points. However, some of your conclusions are sketchy.

[DreadDormammu]

As many others have openly suggested, in Turbine's best interests, regardless if the customer base's allegations hold water or not, they should sever ties with the company that was involved in this situation.

Well I'll be danged, you are starting to make sense! I personally think it would be a great idea if Turbine wasn't hosting offers from Super Rewards. Are they?

[Pfold]

If you think I am missing pertinent information, please point it out to me. I have and am still reading up diligently on this.



Wow! Double strawman FTL!

A. Show where I asserted that I believe in EVERY company it's ok for an employee (singular again?) to lose the company money and keep their job as long as you say 'Oops. It was a mistake.

B. Demonstrate the employee responsible for Super Rewards has lost Turbine money. You are not simply ASSUMING this, are you? No, you are obviously privy to Turbine financial information that other people are not. I hope the sardonic nature of this item is not lost on anyone, I hate having to explain my jokes.

Now, it's time to play "Make believe to state the obvious to the oblivious!" Let's pretend there is a guy, Dormammu, that works for a trucking company in Iowa. He is in charge of three of the companies accounts, A, B, and C. Now, last year accounts A and B made $1000 and $500, respectively, but C lost $200.

Pop Quiz!

Did Dormammu:

A. Lose the company $200, and needs to be fired.

B. Gained the company $1300, and should be retained.

Now, before the Gotcha Police get the riot gear out, I cannot assert this. I don't know if Turbine Employee A (Responsible for Super Rewards Fiasco) had any other responsibilities. The thing is, neither do any of you. You all (the "Lets the Heads Roll Group) are so darn eager to see head rolls, you quite frankly don't care. That is why Turbine isn't going to listen to buzzheads on the forum on who to fire and who to retain. Most of the forum goers are totally irrelevant to their interior discussions and policies. Get real.

Let's go ahead and assume the employees of Turbine are paid employees and not just all interns for argument's sake.

Person(s) is/are tasked to come up with a plan to create more revenue. They are being paid to do this. COST
Person(s) research the how to implement new plan. COST
Person(s) is/are tasked with integrating said new revenue operation into existing platform. COST
Plan is implemented and customer base becomes agitated. Not really a cost but not really a gain either.
Person(s) is/are tasked to remove newly implemented plan. COST
Person(s) is/are tasked with damage/salvage control. COST

All of those person(s) have a boss or people that they answer to. All of those person(s) were paid to do something that for whatever reason didn't work. All I see are costs =/

What's seriously inflamatory for me is the fact that not only that this was the reason for last weekends downtime, but the fact that this whole escapade was a priority OVER I don't know... ...fixing things that are broken in the game. Kind of makes me wonder where some folk's heads are at.

The sad part is we haven't seen the end of this, seeing as everything posted as an official reply can have multiple meanings. What makes that worse is that it still will take priority over what the #1 goal should be, improving the game. Fix the lag in the raids and I promise I'll go and give you guys some shout outs to my buddies when I draft on Monday nights.

So hey, if you think that my (or who knows how many other people this made angry ;justifiable or not) 15usd's a month are worth less than an employee that rests on their laurels. Then fine, keep them. COST

[DreadDormammu]

So hey, if you think that my (or who knows how many other people this made angry ;justifiable or not) 15usd's a month are worth less than an employee that rests on their laurels. Then fine, keep them. COST

Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of people have justification to be upset by this. However, no matter HOW you try to argue it:

angry customers screaming for blood =/= necessitous to fire someone

And whether you realize it or not, "angry customers screaming for blood" is the only real argument you have right now.

[rest]

Let it go.

Turbine will never be able to satisfy all of us or make all of us happy. Turbine made a mistake and has since apologized for it. That is more than Toyota, or any of the financial companies that went bankrupt in 2008 have done.

Now, let it go. Turbine has answered all the questions they are going to, and would not/should not inform anyone outside of the company if someone is actually terminated. That would be a breach of privacy and the Department of Labor would take exception to that, if it occurred.

No need to gather further evidence, no need to bicker amongst each other about the merits of the issue.

It is over, the wall is down and they have apologized. Move on

I agree with this post, finally. I realized that what's done is done. Does it suck? Yeah. Did some players' info get compromised? Looks to be that way. Can you get the cow back in the barn now that it's escaped? Alas, no. None of us can change what has already happened. We can only hope to affect things that have not happened yet go in a positive manner.

I've spewed my venom. I've said mean things. But being ****ed off all the time about stuff you can't change is exhausting Now I'll just get back to playing

[Patience]

What's seriously inflamatory for me is the fact that not only that this was the reason for last weekends downtime

Actually, it wasn't, and I'm not sure where this rumor came from but I'm here to end it.

Last weekend's downtime didn't have anything to do with Super Rewards or the Offer Wall. As I stated several times during it, there was an issue at the datacenter of one of our vendors (resulting in a hardware replacement, IIRC). This had absolutely nothing to do with the deployment of the Offer Wall or Super Rewards.

[Fenrisulven6]

Does it suck? Yeah. Did some players' info get compromised? Looks to be that way. Can you get the cow back in the barn now that it's escaped? Alas, no. None of us can change what has already happened.

We're not trying to get the cow* back in the barn.

We're trying to get proof that the barn door has been fixed before we move more cattle in.


* and apologizes to any gentle souls who are offended by the use of the word "cow"

[Pfold]

Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of people have justification to be upset by this. However, no matter HOW you try to argue it:

angry customers screaming for blood =/= necessitous to fire someone

And whether you realize it or not, "angry customers screaming for blood" is the only real argument you have right now.

Would you concede that if ALL the applicable data were made available to us that it is possible there was a breach?

Why keep someone around that could have created a major liability? From what I gather on the lawsuit (the pdf is online) DDO is a moneysink for them. I just don't understand why you would keep a risk like that when you are already pumping that much of your own money into it. When an instance like this comes about you can play devil's advocate but in the end a risk is a risk. I'm not screaming for half of the staff to get canned. What I initially suggested was that 'letting someone go' would appease the majority offolks that were upset. Turbine could then claim, 'there was an error made by an employee that has been severed in the interim and this will not happen again' (something along those lines.

[Fenrisulven6]

Actually, it wasn't, and I'm not sure where this rumor came from but I'm here to end it.

On that note, can you clear something up please?

Gaming sites quote you as saying Turbine has severed its relationship with SuperScam.

But the only quote I can find from you implies Turbine has backed away from the relationship re the Offer Wall only, but is still partnered with SuperScam.

Can you answer:

1) Is Turbine still partnered with SuperRewards?

2) If so, are they looking at terminating that partnership?

Because for alot of us, thats the deal-breaker. The sooner you let us know that you will remain SuperScam's accomplice, the sooner the rest of us can cancel our subs and get out of your hair.

[DevKiller]

On that note, can you clear something up please?

Gaming sites quote you as saying Turbine has severed its relationship with SuperScam.

But the only quote I can find from you implies Turbine has backed away from the relationship re the Offer Wall only, but is still partnered with SuperScam.

Can you answer:

1) Is Turbine still partnered with SuperRewards?

2) If so, are they looking at terminating that partnership?

Because for alot of us, thats the deal-breaker. The sooner you let us know that you will remain SuperScam's accomplice, the sooner the rest of us can cancel our subs and get out of your hair.

I second this please let us know.

[DreadDormammu]

Would you concede that if ALL the applicable data were made available to us that it is possible there was a breach?

Listen, I think it is "possible" WITHOUT all of the data that a breach could have occurred. However, Turbine has the actual data and reassures us that is has not. If this reassurance is not enough for any individual, it is on that individual to decide upon a course of action.

Why keep someone around that could have created a major liability?

There are a lot of people at a lot of different jobs that *COULD* create a major liability. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this is the case with the Super Rewards issue. You are acting like we are standing at Ground Zero. Where is this major liability?

From what I gather on the lawsuit (the pdf is online) DDO is a moneysink for them. I just don't understand why you would keep a risk like that when you are already pumping that much of your own money into it. When an instance like this comes about you can play devil's advocate but in the end a risk is a risk.

But you have not substantiated that the risk vs. benefit of the "parties responsible". You have no way of knowing!

I'm not screaming for half of the staff to get canned. What I initially suggested was that 'letting someone go' would appease the majority offolks that were upset. Turbine could then claim, 'there was an error made by an employee that has been severed in the interim and this will not happen again' (something along those lines.

Demonstrate how firing someone (anyone) will keep something like this from EVER happening again with 100% certitude. You are not making sense.

Bottom line, if you want someone fired just to make you happy, TOUGH COOKIES. Only the intellectually bankrupt think this way.

[Fenrisulven6]

Pfold, you're debating a sophist. Waste of your time.

[DreadDormammu]

I second this please let us know.

Yes, putting sensitive internal company data and decisions on a public forum would be a lot more secure than partnering with Super Rewards. In fact, anything you can do to make your short and long term company goals transparent to your competitors would be extremely beneficial. Why don't you just give us complete visibility to your entire employee database, with social security numbers included.

[DreadDormammu]

Pfold, you're debating a sophist. Waste of your time.

If Pfold is debating a sophist, whom am I debating?