How do Clerics heal better than FvS?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

sorry to burst your bubble but what makes clerics more versatile?
the spellselection cant be it as there arent even enough useful divine spells that fav souls will ever run into a problem

Except at L6. I'm having a hard time making spell selections there. Other than that, still more spell slots than I need by high level.

[Lymnus]

Except at L6. I'm having a hard time making spell selections there. Other than that, still more spell slots than I need by high level.

It gets even worse when you multiclass. I feel bad for those evasion FvSes.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I'm not really going to debate this yet again. I'm simply offering my side of the arguement with my rationale behind it. Readers can take it into consideration when deciding what to do. Those that have already made up their mind, I'm not going to even try to disuade you. You'll have to learn for yourself. There are some items that I thought beginning to medium experience players may have been lead astray buy. So I'll address them:

All other things being equal a FVS will out preform a cleric. More SP, Leap of faith, DR 10 silver, +10 fire/cold/lightning resist.

I've addressed the SP issue, but here is some more:

The mana difference is a low benefit for me going into the insignificant realm: The 600 - 800 mana difference between the two is accurate. However, 1) mana efficiency lowers the real value of this, 2) even at elite levels this mana isn't needed on a well played cleric, 3) pots and end game items really make this difference inconsequential (you don't need the mana almost all of the time, when you do reserves of pots/bauble/epic ring/vile blasphemy are very substantial - I have 100s of them because I never need them), 4) scroll and wand use save both classes the same amount of mana, and 5) there are items in the game (DQ Torc and concordiant opposition greensteel) that give you 100s of mana (1000s if you work at it) on a typical quest, which is the same on a FS or a cleric.

The DR and stacking resists are insignificant on a divine caster who can heal and protect themselves like a FS or cleric (120 point protections for free). 10 points of elemental resist? That's just funny. Only useful when leveling. My FS and clerics sneer at 100 points of elemental damage (even if it does get by my protections). 10 points of melee DR? You can make all the stoneskin clickies you want on a cleric, for those really tough fights (and you only need them at the beginning). All that said if you are running around with only 300-350 hp (you should have 100 more than that), that DR may be useful to you.

Currently divine enhancements are ..meh.. when the PRE's for clerics get relesed there may be some good perks for clercis with Domain lines, but not really worthwhile holding your breath for those to come out.

Only thing I see is FvS try to spread themselves too thin trying to achieve MELEE(STR/DEX), MANA(CHA), and DC's(WIS) when they can realistically only really maintain 2 of the 3. Decide your path and stick to it.

Empower healing vs Empower, my clerics all dropped the EMP Heal for EMP, Empower works on all spells except Heal and Mass Heal(slow timer), who cares if you can hit a Barbarian for 1700 hp of heal when he has 950hp. Effecient healing is more usefull, rather cast 2 Heals when he falls below half then wait until he is almost dead before power healing him.

I believe the cleric capstone is actually quite useful. I agree with your assesment of FS trying to spread themself too thin. Clerics have less issue with this.

Empowered heals do about 430 or so non-epowered heals do 270 or so. Why are you quoting critical heals? That is only misleading. Critical heals are only important for hurting undead or mass healing (assuming you aren't over-healing with your masses to start with). The numbers I quoted are actually very relevant and make a huge difference.

sorry to burst your bubble but what makes clerics more versatile?
the spellselection cant be it as there arent even enough useful divine spells that fav souls will ever run into a problem

How could you burst my bubble? As a I said, I already have a capped FS. I've played them both extensively. I base my view on my experience, not what someone tells me on the forums. And there are spells that I wish I had on my FS, that would make quests easier (mass heal, mass deathward, mass cure critical wounds, symbol of persuasion, bestow curse, disenchant area, true ressurrection, etc). You have been involved in discussion of this in the past, you didn't change your mind then, and I'm happy for you.

Out of time, sorry for anyone I missed. But really posting for those still evaluating their stance on the issue.

[Mellkor]

FvS do not heal "better". They heal the same, or at least have the same potential. They just basically have more sp at the cost of a few spell slots. About 500 more if the FvS dumps their CHA stat and takes NO SP enhancements/feats over a cleric with both SP feats, all SP enhancements, and max wisdom. If the FvS takes the same feats and enhancements for SP the difference is about 1000 more, assuming typical SP equipment.

-JR

[Impaqt]

By default. Because healing spells are granted for free to clerics, that makes it seem they should be better.

its all about the build and player though. It is very easy to make a FvS that is as good or superior at healing compared to a cleric. There are very few "Definitives" in character creation and play. the DDo system is flexible enough to create any kind of character you wish from any combination of classes.

Dear Lord, I do not want to start a thread of flames, but I just don't get this. People keep saying that Clerics are vastly better at healing than FvS. I've tried to figure out how, but I have not been successful so far. I'm about to roll a FvS healer. Please help me avoid the error of my ways.

The only thing that I've seen that would make Clerics better is that they get their spells one level earlier than FvS.

So, the Cleric and Favored Soul spell lists are identical. Clerics get a free healing spell selection at each level, but FvS can certainly take that healing spell as well - they just have to use one of their slots. FvS appear to have the same healing amplifying Enhancements (Improved Empower Healing Spell, Cleric Life Magic, Prayer of Life, and Wand and Scroll Mastery). Clerics and FvS can get the same items/equipment. Clerics should expect to have higher DCs for their offensive spells, but I don't see many people making saving thows against their party's heal spells...

What makes Clerics superior as healers? What am I missing?

[Visty]

as you wont debate it some comments on your comments

The mana difference is a low benefit for me going into the insignificant realm: The 600 - 800 mana difference between the two is accurate. However, 1) mana efficiency lowers the real value of this, 2) even at elite levels this mana isn't needed on a well played cleric, 3) pots and end game items really make this difference inconsequential (you don't need the mana almost all of the time, when you do reserves of pots/bauble/epic ring/vile blasphemy are very substantial - I have 100s of them because I never need them), 4) scroll and wand use save both classes the same amount of mana, and 5) there are items in the game (DQ Torc and concordiant opposition greensteel) that give you 100s of mana (1000s if you work at it) on a typical quest, which is the same on a FS or a cleric.

more sp is more sp and more sp is never bad

The DR and stacking resists are insignificant on a divine caster who can heal and protect themselves like a FS or cleric (120 point protections for free). 10 points of elemental resist? That's just funny. Only useful when leveling. My FS and clerics sneer at 100 points of elemental damage (even if it does get by my protections). 10 points of melee DR? You can make all the stoneskin clickies you want on a cleric, for those really tough fights (and you only need them at the beginning). All that said if you are running around with only 300-350 hp (you should have 100 more than that), that DR may be useful to you.

with the resists and dr you basicly gain 35 sp every 48 hits. more sp is more sp
also stoneskin clickys can run out

I believe the cleric capstone is actually quite useful. I agree with your assesment of FS trying to spread themself too thin. Clerics have less issue with this.

jep, the cleric capstone is powerful though its limited in its power (means only really useful on a handfull of quests). the free healing of the fav soul is basicly free sp. more sp is more sp

Empowered heals do about 430 or so non-epowered heals do 270 or so. Why are you quoting critical heals? That is only misleading. Critical heals are only important for hurting undead or mass healing (assuming you aren't over-healing with your masses to start with). The numbers I quoted are actually very relevant and make a huge difference.

the reduction of the emp healing cost for clerics is indeed huge (i managed to bring a heal down to 7sp per cast though that was with other factors too but souls would still have to use 13sp for that one)
sadly this is made up by the 800 more sp

How could you burst my bubble? As a I said, I already have a capped FS. I've played them both extensively. I base my view on my experience, not what someone tells me on the forums. And there are spells that I wish I had on my FS, that would make quests easier (mass heal, mass deathward, mass cure critical wounds, symbol of persuasion, bestow curse, disenchant area, true ressurrection, etc). You have been involved in discussion of this in the past, you didn't change your mind then, and I'm happy for you.

Out of time, sorry for anyone I missed. But really posting for those still evaluating their stance on the issue.

the difference lies between must-have and want-have spells
souls have access to every must-have spell but have to skim on a few want-have spells
ppl like me know what spells dont really do anything which are want-have spells for others (bestow curse for example, i used to have it on my cleric too but it basicly became useless as the relevant mobs (raidbosses) are just immuen to it for beeing devils)
ppl like you want their want-have spells even though they arent really useful

[Jukken]

The major difference is spelled: Devine Intervention.
Perhaps the best capstone of all classes...nothing like it.

[cinoaz]

Had to chime in on this one.

I've capped several clerics as well as a FvS capped toon.

To say one is better than the other, or one heals better than the other, seems like a moot argument to begin with. The same argument holds true for Wizzys vs Sorcs.

Clerics are more versatile since you can swap out spells that may uniquely be applicable to a certain quest. However, when running as a cleric, I find that mana management is what differentiates a good cleric from a bad one, and being a cleric is all about Mana Management.

For FvS, Mana Management isn't as important, but your versatility is limited. I love running my FvS in groups that are self sufficient, the fun goes down when I have to revert to nannybot duty.

Oh, for those that diss Empower Healing, with the enhancements and Reaver Gloves, you get 50% more healing for only 4 mana more, now that's mana management. I don't care about 1500HP heals, but the Cure Mass Mod and Cure Mass Light, with Sup VI item, Empower Healing, and I'm hitting for 200-300HP group heals for just 4 mana more, that's efficient mana management.

It's the whole Wizzy vs Sorc argument again in dealing with Cleric Vs FvS. Neither is better, since the diversity of the game keeps them all fun.

[Visty]

Had to chime in on this one.

I've capped several clerics as well as a FvS capped toon.

To say one is better than the other, or one heals better than the other, seems like a moot argument to begin with. The same argument holds true for Wizzys vs Sorcs.

Clerics are more versatile since you can swap out spells that may uniquely be applicable to a certain quest. However, when running as a cleric, I find that mana management is what differentiates a good cleric from a bad one, and being a cleric is all about Mana Management.

For FvS, Mana Management isn't as important, but your versatility is limited. I love running my FvS in groups that are self sufficient, the fun goes down when I have to revert to nannybot duty.

Oh, for those that diss Empower Healing, with the enhancements and Reaver Gloves, you get 50% more healing for only 4 mana more, now that's mana management. I don't care about 1500HP heals, but the Cure Mass Mod and Cure Mass Light, with Sup VI item, Empower Healing, and I'm hitting for 200-300HP group heals for just 4 mana more, that's efficient mana management.

It's the whole Wizzy vs Sorc argument again in dealing with Cleric Vs FvS. Neither is better, since the diversity of the game keeps them all fun.

its not the exact same argument as on the arcane side because there are more then just a few usefull arcane spell and wizards at least get 5 more feats to compensate

[Knippers]

All other things being equal a FVS will out preform a cleric. More SP, Leap of faith, DR 10 silver, +10 fire/cold/lightning resist.

These class bonuses are nice but are for the divine casters themselves - not anyone they are running with. The ONLY one that may affect the healing capabilities of a FvS is SP. And only if they actually NEED them.

[Anderei]

Is Cleric vs. Fvs not also one of this topics that come up around every fortnight and are discussed again in great length and detail?

[soupertc]

Clerics don't HEAL any better than FvS.....it depends on the player playing the toon where HEALING can be judged. I've run with some FvS who have sucked.....Clerics too.

My advice......learn how to play a "HEALER" first then after sometime figure out who you like the most(Always good to have 2 "HEALER" types anyway raids and whatnot). I only have a cleric.....but I never look at a FvS and feel bad cause they have more SP or Wings or DR. Well cause I know how to play my cleric good. Anyone who tells ya one is better than the other is just stating an opinion and you should take it as such.....really you'll never know till you have run both classes....and then your experince will be much diffrent than mine or any of these other posters

[Bilger]

Funny thing is this argument sounds SO familiar.
Wizards and Sorcs anyone.

There will be people on both sides forever and noone will agree with the others and it will go on and on.

It all boils down IMO to the personal preferances of the person and the person behind the character.

A bad player is a bad player whether cleric or fsv.

[bobbryan2]

The DR and stacking resists are insignificant on a divine caster who can heal and protect themselves like a FS or cleric (120 point protections for free). 10 points of elemental resist? That's just funny. Only useful when leveling. My FS and clerics sneer at 100 points of elemental damage (even if it does get by my protections). 10 points of melee DR? You can make all the stoneskin clickies you want on a cleric, for those really tough fights (and you only need them at the beginning). All that said if you are running around with only 300-350 hp (you should have 100 more than that), that DR may be useful to you.

Man... I adore my passive 15 DR. Insignificant? Really? Soloing Elite Amrath stuff... getting tons of devils on you and being able to shrug it off. I'm not even in the 300 hp range.. I'm topping 550.

[shenthing]

IMO the main difference between FvS and Cleric besides the whole mana-management thing is that you can be more melee focused with a FvS. Fvs get insane saves, the leap, and weapon enhancements. You can build a much meaner Fvs/monk splash than say a cleric/monk if you like being in combat. Of course, a cleric does much better just sitting back, healing, throwing the occasional BB or cometfall.
That being said, cleric play is a lot easier. As stated before, you can get the cost of the Empower Healing meta down to an additional 4 points. Blade barrier is still one of the best sources of damage and a cleric can just as easily fit in empower and maximize.

[Visty]

Blade barrier is still one of the best sources of damage and a cleric can just as easily fit in empower and maximize.

for the soul the same BB will be cheaper though

[shenthing]

for the soul the same BB will be cheaper though

Touche.

[Logic]

One other thing to consider is that they are allowing mass heal (lv9 spell) to hit 12 people instead of 6 making it more useful for raids. Its a slow cast time but it will be the most efficient heal in the game. Also since mass heal doesn't work with maximize/empower spell you can leave all 3 metamagics on at all times and boost your free CLW while having a mana efficient mass heal.

I only have a 20 FvS, not a cleric. Bust just something to think about.

[phalaeo]

What is your definition of healing better?

If you consider it to be one character using their blue bar to power another character's red bar, then yes- with their higher SP pool FvS do make better healers. The answer for me is versatility and being able to apply the proper spell to the proper situation. Prevention is the better cure.

At level 20, a pure FvS has 4 Fourth level spells- I can almost guarantee that Neutralize Poison is not one of them, since it it wandable. Who is switching out their 4th level spells before a Shroud so they can give extended Poison resists to the melees?

Clerics are able to prepare and apply the proper and most SP efficient spells needed, and they are able to do it one level earlier than a FvS.

Take removal of negative levels, for example. For a single target spell, you have Restoration and Greater Restoration. Restoration is available to a FvS as early as Level 8, but they only get to choose one spell until they level up and it's likely not the first priority, given that Panacea, Death Ward, and Cure Critical are also an option at that caster level. What to do? Wait until you can get Greater Restoration, which can be obtained no sooner than Level 14 FvS?

If you take Restoration, how many times do you have to cast it to get rid of eight negative levels? That's hardly SP efficient, but I've seen it done. Restoration, eight times......320 SP worth. Got the job done, but you can hardly call that better healing.

In contrast, Clerics get Greater Restoration one level earlier at Level 13 and can load up either Restoration, Greater Restoration, or both, depending on what they plan on doing, and what other spells of that level they need. Since I can't imagine a FvS taking both Resto and Greater, they are either healing your one neg level with a 60 point spell (Greater), or healing your multiple neg levels with many casts of Restoration at 40 SP per cast.

Again, back to the topic of Neutralize Poison. At that level, it makes a lot more sense to take Panacea, which will cure poison as well as several other negative effects. If you had to choose between the two, it makes more sense to choose the one that will cover more ground, which is Panacea. Again, though- it comes down to an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure. Whereas the FvS that may have chosen Panacea will be able to cure poison, Panacea does not prevent future infection. It's handy and it "heals", but how many times a quest does it need to be cast versus a Cleric casting Neut. Poison, which prevents you from getting poisoned in the first place? It's more SP efficient to be able to cast a 25 SP buff once, than to have to spam a 25 SP cure every time someone gets poisoned.

You can read into that what you will, but the appeal of the Cleric will always be preparedness and versatility it provides and I really feel that the FvS lacks that.

[shores11]

nothing makes clerics better

the only thing where clerics are better then favsouls is turn undead. and we all know how flawed that is

Question: How in your opinion is turn undead flawed?

I have a level 19 cleric currently and I have built him as a healer with superior turn undead specifications. Except for named undead like the "Black Abbot" or the end boss in Madstone Crater I can turn any undead in the game bar none one any difficulty. So explain to me how that is flawed?