How do Clerics heal better than FvS?

[Visty]

Have to disagree. It wasn't MY playstyle, but I found myself doing much the same on my first FvS.

I guess to be more precise you could say that the FvS design encourages peeps to take the nuker route and blow through mana like a sorc.

so it became your playstyle on your soul

play your soul like your cleric and you wont have a problem

[Creeper]

so it became your playstyle on your soul

play your soul like your cleric and you wont have a problem

Lol, I love this argument: FVS Souls are less likely to take empower healing so they are less effective than clerics.

How about instead we say: FVS are less likely to take empower spell because they will be less effective than Clerics.

And then there’s: FVS leave their metamagics on all the time FOR THE CAPSTONE which results in less spell points. So the FVS Capstone is actually a bad thing in your mind at this point. Brilliant strategy. Haste can also be a bad spell if you cast it twice and end up not having enough mana for that Displacement that COULD have saved your life. Sounds a little silly, yes?

As Visty says… If you feel that strongly about these LIKELY actions then take empower healing instead of empower spell and turn off your metamagics when neccesary.
Your argument that Favored Souls are more LIKELY to do anything is negated by the negative emphasis you place on these dreaded choices.
If the things FVS are more LIKELY to do are so horrible then why are they so likely?

Furthermore, in one argument it is presented that Clerics have the upper hand because they are more likely to have more offensive spells, but let’s update that with these new revelations—Clerics are less LIKELY to have empower spell! Oh no!

What if either/or class takes both empower spell and empower healing? My answer: it doesn’t matter much.

P.S. If you leave all your metas on all the time solely for your capstone and find yourself running out of mana because of this… As Visty says this is obviously a mistake. Reevaluate your play style. How many times should we allow ourselves to imagine that it takes for a Favored Soul to make this conclusion:
“Hmm, I am running out of mana because I keep Maximize on all the time for my capstone. This has led me to innumerable problems. Perhaps I should occasionally turn it off, even if it makes my cure light wounds a little less potent…” Is this dialogue reasonable? Can we assume that after about, what? 30-40 times of this happening the player will revise his strategy? Or should we assume that because it is LIKELY, albeit stupid, it is still the norm, because even upon the realization that it is a stupid thing to do we will still do it because it is the most “likely” and obvious thing?

[soloist12]

And btw, I have empowered healing too on my FvS, and he only has 230 more spell points than my cleric (because of monk splash). But only 2 masses . He is still missing some of the spells for dealing with raid situations, but oh well. I would solo heal raids on my cleric anytime, on my FvS, only the easy ones (shroud, VoD).

I'll take "Monk splash is your problem for $500".

[bobbryan2]

I agree completely. Most FvS don't have empower healing, leave their metas on for their capstone so they burn their mana faster than a comparable cleric, and don't have the right spells loaded. In raids it is really problematic, so I prefer clerics.

And btw, I have empowered healing too on my FvS, and he only has 230 more spell points than my cleric (because of monk splash). But only 2 masses . He is still missing some of the spells for dealing with raid situations, but oh well. I would solo heal raids on my cleric anytime, on my FvS, only the easy ones (shroud, VoD). And I agree with your assessment on soloing too, except that the cleric can get all the mana he wants typically in a solo situation.

So your argument is that favored souls are played by idiots, and clerics are played by skilled vets.

In my experience, the exact opposite is true.

[soupertc]

thats not a soul issue though thats a playstyle issue

So your argument is that favored souls are played by idiots, and clerics are played by skilled vets.

In my experience, the exact opposite is true.

I don't think he's to into debating what he thinks...or you think. He's to busy grinding for Eardweller on his Wizard....poor guy....on like run 5000 now I'm sure.

[JOTMON]

Question: How in your opinion is turn undead flawed?

I have a level 19 cleric currently and I have built him as a healer with superior turn undead specifications. Except for named undead like the "Black Abbot" or the end boss in Madstone Crater I can turn any undead in the game bar none one any difficulty. So explain to me how that is flawed?

Because they get feared and spread out running down corridors aggroing everything else in the area while the party curses you because they have to chase them down to kill them.

Meanwhile the Wizzie is sitting there saying he could have cast halt undead because that freezes them in place and is much more effective vs undead.

[Fenrisulven6]

so it became your playstyle on your soul

play your soul like your cleric and you wont have a problem

Oh I did. Switched back my emp heal asap.

I'm just saying the class lends itself to such minmaxing - ie you can get away with dumping things like mental toughness and emp heal without readlly missing it, and replace those with metamagics that burn up your SP advantage. I think thats what Samulus was getting at.

[JOTMON]

By default. Because healing spells are granted for free to clerics, that makes it seem they should be better.

its all about the build and player though. It is very easy to make a FvS that is as good or superior at healing compared to a cleric. There are very few "Definitives" in character creation and play. the DDo system is flexible enough to create any kind of character you wish from any combination of classes.

Unfortunately the higher you get the less useful those static spells become.
Level
1 CLW useful until you get CMW
2 CMW useful until you get CSW
3 CSW useful until you get heal
4 CCW useful until you get heal
5 MCLW Finally a mass cure spell
6 MCMW a better Mass cure spell( used a lot with superior potency item).. and everyone should be taking Heal at this level
7 MCSW good but without a superior potency/devotion clickie better using MCLW and MCMW
8 MCCW meh.. if youa re using this one you are usually in trouble or healing ineffectively.

In my opinion, for the static spells a cleric gets... at higher levels only 3 are really usefull being MCLW, MCMW and MCSW.

[Fenrisulven6]

I love my FvS. I laugh when the barb pokes his nose in a trap because it barely dents my SP bar.

But I still prefer the versatility of my clerics. Try rolling up a FvS for Gywlans and Tear... and find out the party is going through Delaras instead. I'd rather be on a cleric for that.

And especially for PUGs. You've got to be versatile. Some days I think they don't even know what a neutralize poison pot is.

[bobbryan2]

Unfortunately the higher you get the less useful those static spells become.
Level
1 CLW useful until you get CMW
2 CMW useful until you get CSW
3 CSW useful until you get heal
4 CCW useful until you get heal
5 MCLW Finally a mass cure spell
6 MCMW a better Mass cure spell( used a lot with superior potency item).. and everyone should be taking Heal at this level
7 MCSW good but without a superior potency/devotion clickie better using MCLW and MCMW
8 MCCW meh.. if youa re using this one you are usually in trouble or healing ineffectively.

In my opinion, for the static spells a cleric gets... at higher levels only 3 are really usefull being MCLW, MCMW and MCSW.

Once you get your superior ardor VIII belts from Amrath, MCCW and MCSW are all I use.

[Shade]

It's not really a similiar discussion to sorc vs wizard.. Because they have vast differences that can't be quantified as better then the other... Cleric and FvS are really very much the same.

Clerics do get improved empowered healing, so if you want to be the best healer in the toughest areas, you want that.. Can get your empowered heals allot cheaper then a FvS .. But the FvS SP boost pretty much entirely negates that advantage.

Really at some point in all the hardest battles, both become limited in how often they can cast, the difference in SP isn't that limiting.. And with equal scroll/wand healing abiltities, theres not much difference when it comes down to that.

The biggest thing while lvling I think is getting spells 1 level earlier, and the wings at lvl17... Really the breaking point when a FvS become more fun to play.

Then engame the biggest thing is the capstone, which are massively different:
Cleric - Ultimate capstone for allot of raids, can make all the difference between victory and utter defeat
FvS - All around awesome capstone giving you a ton of DR, extra cha and your choice of 1 unlimited spell (free CLW or Searing light being the best ones)

That's why it's nice to have both.

[tympist]

Not sure if this has been put in or not but a cleric is better at healing due to they have improved empowered healing where fvs has improved empower spell instead. that one enchantment can make a world of difference.

[Creeper]

Try rolling up a FvS for Gywlans and Tear... and find out the party is going through Delaras instead. I'd rather be on a cleric for that.

What does "rolling up a FVS for Gywlans and Tear" entail, and why would you rather have a Cleric for Delera's?

[Hellllboy]

Challenge: Take a really good player that has experience in playing the healer line for clerics and FvS and ask their feedback. I think you will find that the cleric is preferred as the healer due to the wider ability to heal and buff.

I have a capped Cleric and an almost Capped FvS.

My FvS is much better (for my play style) and he has not even hit 20 yet. (He can heal and buff-the same-but has tons more mana)

When it comes to healing-the 2 stat distribution (i.e. CHA/WIS) makes FvS the obvious choice-if you are just making a healing bot. (No DC for healing)

The Cleric stands out when it comes to "offensive" casting because they can concentrate on WIS and disregard CHA-thus having a higher DC.

That’s my feedback

[Visty]

I have a capped Cleric and an almost Capped FvS.

My FvS is much better (for my play style) and he has not even hit 20 yet. (He can heal and buff-the same-but has tons more mana)

When it comes to healing-the 2 stat distribution (i.e. CHA/WIS) makes FvS the obvious choice-if you are just making a healing bot. (No DC for healing)

The Cleric stands out when it comes to "offensive" casting because they can concentrate on WIS and disregard CHA-thus having a higher DC.

That’s my feedback

you dont need more then 12 starting cha on a soul either, some can even go with 10

its not really an issue, just taking one more inv slot

[Velexia]

Dear Lord, I do not want to start a thread of flames, but I just don't get this. People keep saying that Clerics are vastly better at healing than FvS. I've tried to figure out how, but I have not been successful so far. I'm about to roll a FvS healer. Please help me avoid the error of my ways.

The only thing that I've seen that would make Clerics better is that they get their spells one level earlier than FvS.

So, the Cleric and Favored Soul spell lists are identical. Clerics get a free healing spell selection at each level, but FvS can certainly take that healing spell as well - they just have to use one of their slots. FvS appear to have the same healing amplifying Enhancements (Improved Empower Healing Spell, Cleric Life Magic, Prayer of Life, and Wand and Scroll Mastery). Clerics and FvS can get the same items/equipment. Clerics should expect to have higher DCs for their offensive spells, but I don't see many people making saving thows against their party's heal spells...

What makes Clerics superior as healers? What am I missing?

Clerics have less SP, that makes them superior.

[SquelchHU]

At level 20, a pure FvS has 4 Fourth level spells- I can almost guarantee that Neutralize Poison is not one of them, since it it wandable. Who is switching out their 4th level spells before a Shroud so they can give extended Poison resists to the melees?

The potion vendor. Or a friendly Ranger. But you act as if getting a Neutralize Poison is a big deal. It isn't.

[PopeJual]

Thank you all very much for the thoughtful and lively debate. I was worried that this would turn into a flame fest, but it was just a spirited discussion with lots of good information. That's to all for that.

I think I understand the issue now.

FvS can heal just as well as Clerics up to 20, but each has a significantly different capstone. The reason why FvS "can't" heal as effectively as Clerics is that most choose not to or don't understand how to.

I'm honestly not that surprised that most FvS don't heal as effectively as Clerics. Just reading this thread has been a huge education for me on how to make healing effective and efficient. I've run a Cleric up to level 8 so far and gave up for a while because I just couldn't stand spending plat to keep ineffective PUGs up and running. Now that I've seen the results of this thread, I think I'll go back and design a healer that's more efficient, more effective and try again.

[Anthem]

For the WoW or EQ style nannybot, FvS can be built to fit that style better, but I think most of us see the Cleric as something different; Combat when combat is the best choice, healing when healing is needed, and CC when CC is the best choice.

I'm not saying that FvS is a one-trick-pony, because I seen many do devastating combat, but they are a bit one-trick at a time.

One of the best summaries (and simplest) I've seen was this post in another thread:

Heal
Cure Moderate Wounds, mass (the most widely used spell for raid healing)
Blade Barrier
Cometfall
Harm
Symbol of Persuasion

Pick 3.

That's a favored soul.

A cleric has all six .. at the same time.

I'd have said Banishment instead of Symbol, but I think the point is made.

I had tried playing an FvS and I think I lasted 'til level nine before it made me choose between FOM and the big cure at that level. That was too much of a sacrifice to my play style and knew it was only going to get worse from there on out.

[Creeper]

I had tried playing an FvS and I think I lasted 'til level nine before it made me choose between FOM and the big cure at that level. That was too much of a sacrifice to my play style and knew it was only going to get worse from there on out.

It wouldn't have gotten worse though. If you had waited two more levels you would have been able to have both spells. Two levels after that you could have picked another level four spell.

You get 1 at level 8, 1 at level 9, 1 at level 11, and the final one at level 13.

For the WoW or EQ style nannybot, FvS can be built to fit that style better, but I think most of us see the Cleric as something different; Combat when combat is the best choice, healing when healing is needed, and CC when CC is the best choice.

What is the difference between a WOW or EQ style nannybot and a DDO style nannybot? Is a nannybot just a condescending term for healer?