How do Clerics heal better than FvS?

[Creeper]

Lastly turning undead is a core component of D&D and one that I hope will always remain a part of DDO.

How big of a part do you think turn undead is to DDO?
Have you ever seen looking for Turn Build in an LFM? I haven't.

I am narrow minded about turns, i'll admit. I think it's because any time I have seen anyone use it (which has been at least a year or more) it has caused more trouble than it's worth. A Cleric using turn screams out noob to me. I am sorry. I am narrow minded but I have never been thankful to have a cleric spend turn attempts on an actual turn.

[Creeper]

I agree to a point as a FvS is superior in that they have more SP, quite a lot more. But other than that they are not superior.

Unless you count FVS's: HPS (toughness enhancements), saves, DR, capstone, energy resistance, action boosts, or class skills.

[shores11]

How big of a part do you think turn undead is to DDO?
Have you ever seen looking for Turn Build in an LFM? I haven't.

I am narrow minded about turns, i'll admit. I think it's because any time I have seen anyone use it (which has been at least a year or more) it has caused more trouble than it's worth. A Cleric using turn screams out noob to me. I am sorry. I am narrow minded but I have never been thankful to have a cleric spend turn attempts on an actual turn.

I meant only that it is core to D&D and a part of DDO (not core to DDO).

I have been playing 4+ years now and use it often as I am no noob. I enjoy it and as I stated earlier have had no complaints.

[moops]

I have a capped Cleric and a Capped FVS--They both heal the same--

BUT i am prob the only FVS I know that carries 3 Mass Cures and Empower Healing--and I really want to dump one mass cure for a DPS spell, but find that I still need the 3 mass cures for Pug Raids and Epic VON 6 if lag is bad.

Many FVS only carry one Mass Cure, and alot leave all their metas on while healing in raids to bump up their free CLW--only they run out of SP too fast with all Metas on, so really it is a player choice, and player playstyle that is better not the class.

My FVS is wis based and has 600 more SP than my cleric--but my cleric doesn't need to take pots in raids anyhow, so the 600 SP is really just better for soloing--but then again, I still prefer to solo some things on my cleric because she has more DPS and insta kill spells atm.

[sativathered6977]

all i can say is that clerics have dv's and just about every group that i am in with my cleric someone asks..."can i have some dvs?" and that can help in a pinch. i will always have a cleric!!

[damien66]

Question coming from a relatively new cleric (level 11). Aren't there some advantages for the cleric when it comes to spell DC? Since cleric's key stat is wis (which is also spell DC), don't they inherently get a DC advantage on CC-type spells that a FVS, which uses cha for its key stat, wouldn't necessarily receive?

I'm guessing that any DC advantages pretty much disappear once you get to the really high-level content, but what about the middle levels?

[Visty]

Question coming from a relatively new cleric (level 11). Aren't there some advantages for the cleric when it comes to spell DC? Since cleric's key stat is wis (which is also spell DC), don't they inherently get a DC advantage on CC-type spells that a FVS, which uses cha for its key stat, wouldn't necessarily receive?

I'm guessing that any DC advantages pretty much disappear once you get to the really high-level content, but what about the middle levels?

both classes use wisdom for their dc
and as stated earlier souls just have 1 less wisdom then clerics which is either 1 or 0 dc, so no, theres no dc disadvantage

[damien66]

both classes use wisdom for their dc
and as stated earlier souls just have 1 less wisdom then clerics which is either 1 or 0 dc, so no, theres no dc disadvantage

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

[cinoaz]

1) I am saying that I am destroying undead depending on the level of the undead.

I appreciate your zealotry about destroying undead, I really do. But if you bothered to look at my previous post, the link I provided, I did all the math.

I'm not entering into a qualitative argument about Destroying Undead by turning, I did the quantitative analysis and verified how all bonuses are being added.

The short end of it, Undead have inflated HD, which directly affect Turn Undead Calculations. Also, depending on the quest, the Devs "Bumped" resistances to the undead to resist being destroyed(again, see post, there are two sets of numbers).

In DDO, you cannot raise your Cleric Levels faster than the HD increase of undead as you go higher in levels. It's a losing battle. Sure you can Turn, and cower, and make them flee, but the dual wielding Disruptors/Sunblades/Holy Burst of Pure Good DPSers get annoyed.

Also, when, say, an Undead that unlocks a door when destroyed gets turned and goes through a barrier (Orchard Quest, name deceives me atm), the group doesn't like it.

I'm a big fan of turn undead as well, but unless you can point out where my calculations are incorrect, the odds of destroying undead are very rare at high levels. The numbers don't lie.

[Durmast]

At level 20, a pure FvS has 4 Fourth level spells- I can almost guarantee that Neutralize Poison is not one of them, since it it wandable. Who is switching out their 4th level spells before a Shroud so they can give extended Poison resists to the melees?

I've never played a healer, and I've got a question about this particular spell. How is it different from just drinking a potion of poison neutralization? I'm asking because I can't say that I've ever asked for a cure poison, although there's been many a time where I've poured a pot down someone's throat when they run by with the poison flag over their head.

[bobbryan2]

To address your point about scattering the party and causing them to take more damage when the unturn you my friend need to run with better players. I have been destroying and turning undead in DDO for over 4 years now and have never even come close to seeing what you are describing and in fact have never had anyone complain about me turning undead.

I have personally asked a cleric to stop turning undead because it is causing more trouble than it is alleviating.

I've also seen plenty of other people ask the same.

Maybe no one has asked you because they don't even notice you're doing it?

[Twerpp]

The lack of AoE cure spells due to slots at earlier levels hurts. If you have a group that is going to steamroll everything you will never notice the difference it's the groups full of chumps that will be hurting. HJEEL ME! OMG GIMP HEALER!

[phalaeo]

I've never played a healer, and I've got a question about this particular spell. How is it different from just drinking a potion of poison neutralization? I'm asking because I can't say that I've ever asked for a cure poison, although there's been many a time where I've poured a pot down someone's throat when they run by with the poison flag over their head.

To the best of my knowledge, the difference is only in duration and, well, the spell doesn't cost gold at the vendor. This is kind of important for newer players- I'm still relatively new, but I remember when I would have thought paying 300-800 GP for a potion was insane.

The spell can be extended as a buff- important in Shroud, when a 7-8-9 minute buff is just cutting it too close. I've never melee'd Harry (so I've never gotten poisoned by him), but from what I understand, it isn't just a poison flag---it drops you like a rock.

[sirgog]

Empower healing vs Empower, my clerics all dropped the EMP Heal for EMP, Empower works on all spells except Heal and Mass Heal(slow timer), who cares if you can hit a Barbarian for 1700 hp of heal when he has 950hp. Effecient healing is more usefull, rather cast 2 Heals when he falls below half then wait until he is almost dead before power healing him.

My cleric dropped Empower Spell for Empower Healing, and would do the same again.

Hitting a Barbarian with 770hp for 427 instead of 285 makes a huge difference - and many foes deal too much damage for you to keep said barb alive with one Heal per 4.5 seconds. Likewise Mass Heal hitting an entire Epic dungeon group for 420 not 280 saves you all the mana an empowered Mass Cure Critical Wounds would have cost.

Whereas Empower Spell adds 25% to the damage of your (maximized) Bladebarriers - situationally useful, but not particularly useful in raids or Epics.

[vVAnjilaVv]

They don't, it's the person at the keyboard that determines if they are a good healer or not. The problem with many clerics is they think all they have to do to be a good healer is sit there and hit thier heal and mass cure hotkey......until they get slammed in the face with a meteor swarm and are dead because they don't know how to use thier movement keys.

U know what makes a bard a better healer than a cleric and a fvs combined....the inability to cast Mass Heal LVL 9 in a raid battle.

[Angelz_Fire]

My reasons I dropped my cleric in favor of FVS!!

<-- leap of faith (who doesn't love wings)
<-- damage reduction and 3x +10 resists of your choice (these stack with res 30 spell)
<-- ton o sp's so u can acaully use the metamagic feats without worrying about sp's
<-- free Cure light wounds that work with your metamagic feats!! (without sp's cost)
<-- OMG JUMP isn't cross class nuff said!!
<-- and of course my favorite actual saves that prevent you getting nailed with spells!

The main problem with fvs at this point is that there are more choices so no 2 fvs are alike, you will get a great one then you'll get a dud! They have gotten a bad reputation because of the choices players make. I've seen fvs of all types and wisdom and charisma are not always even stats they put points into!! I prefer the healing type myself so have come to love the fvs class and find it far superior to my cleric.

[arcticwolf666]

Funny thing is this argument sounds SO familiar.
Wizards and Sorcs anyone.

There will be people on both sides forever and noone will agree with the others and it will go on and on.

It all boils down IMO to the personal preferances of the person and the person behind the character.

A bad player is a bad player whether cleric or fsv.

It does sound like it but it was only a question not an argument made the OP Also, the quote above fits it perfectly. It is how the character is played. No one class (Cleric and FVS for this thread) is better or worse but how it is played by person behind the keyboard.

Some FVS and Clerics are built for battle and thusly played with self healing in mind, and I have seen them played as healing in mind. Just FVS depends on which spells you choose at level

To the OP, it is only how they are played not that each class is better or worse. I hope this answers

[The_Great_Samulas]

I have a capped Cleric and a Capped FVS--They both heal the same--

BUT i am prob the only FVS I know that carries 3 Mass Cures and Empower Healing--and I really want to dump one mass cure for a DPS spell, but find that I still need the 3 mass cures for Pug Raids and Epic VON 6 if lag is bad.

Many FVS only carry one Mass Cure, and alot leave all their metas on while healing in raids to bump up their free CLW--only they run out of SP too fast with all Metas on, so really it is a player choice, and player playstyle that is better not the class.

My FVS is wis based and has 600 more SP than my cleric--but my cleric doesn't need to take pots in raids anyhow, so the 600 SP is really just better for soloing--but then again, I still prefer to solo some things on my cleric because she has more DPS and insta kill spells atm.

I agree completely. Most FvS don't have empower healing, leave their metas on for their capstone so they burn their mana faster than a comparable cleric, and don't have the right spells loaded. In raids it is really problematic, so I prefer clerics.

And btw, I have empowered healing too on my FvS, and he only has 230 more spell points than my cleric (because of monk splash). But only 2 masses . He is still missing some of the spells for dealing with raid situations, but oh well. I would solo heal raids on my cleric anytime, on my FvS, only the easy ones (shroud, VoD). And I agree with your assessment on soloing too, except that the cleric can get all the mana he wants typically in a solo situation.

[Visty]

I agree completely. Most FvS don't have empower healing, leave their metas on for their capstone so they burn their mana faster than a comparable cleric, and don't have the right spells loaded. In raids it is really problematic, so I prefer clerics.

thats not a soul issue though thats a playstyle issue

[Fenrisulven6]

thats not a soul issue though thats a playstyle issue

Have to disagree. It wasn't MY playstyle, but I found myself doing much the same on my first FvS.

I guess to be more precise you could say that the FvS design encourages peeps to take the nuker route and blow through mana like a sorc.