Monster Champion Feedback

[EllisDee37]

~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they

How about just making hirelings champions?

Also, any consideration to making all NPCs that we have to protect (Heyton, Coyle, etc...) champions? They suffer the same as hirelings do, except instead of a probable fail when hirelings die, it's an actual fail when the NPC dies. So if it's an issue with hirelings, it's a full-blown problem with NPCs.

[Stonemerge]

Sounds far Thrudh, give all those that want to play with Champions +1% xp for every champion killed and +1 loot in quest and end reward for selecting the checkbox, that should satisfy the ubers that want to level quicker and for those that want the challenge they get the better gear. Those that dont want champions lose the extra xp and the loot bonus. This might make all parties happy!

THIS is the best proposal i have heard so far.

[Impaqt]

Actually, I think someone sarcastically asked if elite gave twice the xp (responding to one of my posts), but I won't swear to it. Doesn't really matter. 27% is still significant.

There does seem to be a lot of "mathematically-challenged" going around, including among the devs (based on the numbers I've seen in-game on the spawn rates), lol.

27% is not really significant considering it takes most groups at least 27% more time to complete on Elite than it would on Hard.

Still, I'm sure 27-40 is possible as the other poster claimed, but I would like to see the math on how it works out.

[phillymiket]

Greetings!

We have been reading player feedback, data gathering how players did over the weekend with Monster Champions in place, and playing with the content ourselves. Although we are still data-mining, I wanted to give players our initial impressions of all of this.

~ Overall we like the system and have had fun with it. A lot of players played with the system over the weekend. That said, even our most hardcore devs agree there are probably just too many Monster Champions, especially on Hard. We plan on reducing the spawn chance by around ~20% on Elite and ~40% on Hard. This will include minions and orange name bosses.

~ We are also looking at damage. There is some content where the damage is higher than we are comfortable with. We will probably dial back the damage increase as well. We want feedback on the possiblity that damage boosts for minion and orange named bosses will drop by about 20%.

We are looking for feedback for these proposed changes as we want to make those changes this week.

~ We agree with players that it would be cool to have the Champions have a chance to give an extra reward such as Champion tokens. We like the suggestion that tokens can be turned in for some crafting materials and are looking into that.

~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they need to take less damage from Monster Champions. That change is somewhat involved and wouldn't be put in until the next patch.

Sev~

Hey Sev,

Thanks for replying.

Now that I see you have a little green light on...

Korthos? > The Harbor?

Does something so unpredictable make you uncomfortable for our players with Starter Gear and zero knowledge?

It does me.

Thanks for your efforts and - with tweaking - Champions could be a great addition.

[Monkey-Boy]

Greetings!

Hmmm . . . who else says that?

~ We are also looking at damage. There is some content where the damage is higher than we are comfortable with. We will probably dial back the damage increase as well. We want feedback on the possiblity that damage boosts for minion and orange named bosses will drop by about 20%.

To a total of what?

Double-damage is fine, you go above that and it breaks things.

[Aletys]

And to all those who talk about quitting and never coming back...

Yes DDO has lost a lot of players over the years for whatever reason.

No it is not updates like this that caused it I don't think.

IMHO it is because people simply get bored and move on like other MMO's.

Out of the tons of posts of people threatening to leave the game...VERY few will actually leave. ...

That's because, at least since I've been playing, when things got this heated in the past, the devs backed down & made things reasonable. Some did leave, & it got their attention, so they made a correction. My guess is that will happen again. The only thing is that this went live before it should have, and unless they act fast, folks may start to leave. I know some already have.

[Aletys]

its called a "wake up call". sure, we might have decent gear and lots of hit points, but fact of the matter is that we have gotten complacent. we have come to expect little danger from Hard or even Elite mobs.

People arent getting One shotted because they dont have the right gear or because they built their character wrong. They are getting owned because they didnt prepare for the fight... Or didnt bother to use crowd control... or simple tactics.



Completely false.

Just so happens I've been leveling a hybrid melee wizard lately... I've had the pleasure of running levels 17-22 since Champions went live..... So I've had the pleasure of running Heroic Elite Vale and into some Epic Hard Gianthold.

people will be happy to confim I am FAR from "uber"... But I've refused to take Champions lightly. In Madstone Crater, I was significantly Under level, off Destiny, on lowest HP member of the pug I joined.

As a melee, I was right in the mix with the kill counts but somehow didnt die once. I used my Webs, Glitterdust, and charms to minimize the danger I faced. Most of the other melees had multiple deaths. not because they were bad... but because they were playing with the same tactics they played with last week.... None.....

Well, you clearly haven't run Korthos on elite at level. I'll leave it at that.

[MangLord]

~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they need to take less damage from Monster Champions. That change is somewhat involved and wouldn't be put in until the next patch.

Sev~

The hireling AI issue is much broader, but hirelings have room for improvement in general. Especially the rogues. I'd found that they were generally useful in pre-U24 EH, but entirely unable to deal with EE, even wildly overlevel. (The lvl 27 cleric would die on the first mob in EE Bargain of Blood) Now they're likely to die in EH, or even HE for that matter. HE seems like the massive step up in difficulty that EH was when I first entered epics. The DDO learning curve used to be steep, but I'm not sure new players would be willing to scale the vertical wall that it is now, especially with the easier play of most other games. If you guys are willing to allow DDO to be a niche powergamer MMO for the truly hardcore, then you're nailing it.

In my opinion, the most glaring problem with champions are escort and protection quests. With the previous adjustments to "Hold For Reinforcements", it was a huge relief to actually make use of the pack during the TR train, but now its only a matter of time before Coyle gets blasted by a champion mephit. I honestly don't think there's a chance to get the optional anymore, even with two clerics babysitting him full time. Similarly, Weapons Shipment is a wipe even on Hard if a champion aggros on Liella. I find it unfortunate, as you guys just recently increased the drop rate of the Bauble. I tried it three times and had a party wipe with multiple tough champions we couldn't manage. A teleporting devil champion with extra damage is an absolute nightmare. I was level 22, but there were 3 level 28s in the party. I was using Fascinate to minimize mobs at the spawn points and the wizard blew out her SP within the first 3 minutes throwing dancing balls and webs everywhere. The champions just seemed to walk right through them. (I don't know what her DCs were, but a level 28 pale master in capped archmage destiny shouldn't have a huge issue CCing level 20 mobs) Our level 28 Defender paladin was getting truly beat up trying to intimidate the mobs on a CC with multiple champions stacking him with vulnerability and extra damage. He blew through his LoH after the succubi started spawning.

[FestusHood]

Agreed, and also agreed on your larger point about Epic Elite being balanced around mitigation which constricts build choices.

However, the quoted statement is very relevant for heroics:

The heroic game was balanced for no mitigation. We now have mitigation. The heroic game was not rebalanced for the addition of mitigation. The entire heroic game is now easier as a consequence.

Wait till you try it. On my toon that has heavy armor and defensive stance, elite champions are hitting much harder than they ever did before there was prr. Now imagine characters that don't have 93 prr. On my 0 prr sorc last night doing The Pit, i was hit for 80+ then 100+ slashing damage in rapid succession by the swarm of champions that spawned during the ambush near the end.

I thought it was a neat option for them to make heavy armored arcanes viable. I didn't want them to become mandatory.

A better way to balance for mitigation would have been to bump the damage of ALL the mobs by 20%. That's my main complaint with this change, is that 70% of the content is still just like it was, only now we have the addition of these roaming insta gankers. And yes, they are much more dangerous than any red name in the same quest.

[Impaqt]

Well, you clearly haven't run Korthos on elite at level. I'll leave it at that.

Drat! Ya got me again...

Was it the "I've had the pleasure of running levels 17-22 since Champions went live" that gave it away?

[TitusOvid]

Dear Severlin,

thank you for posting some considerations on companies part.
I am wondering, do you not test these changes you do yourself? These problems had to have come up during the development time, I guess. And during the development you have to jingle some numbers. This new development is like most of the others before, not suitable for life just now.
How does it get so far that you bring something life that you have to change it 7 days later?

It's an honest question. I - as a customer - like to know how your process is in developping the game I am spending money on.

I would be happy about a reply.
Thank you in advance.

[Aletys]

Here’s some feedback:
I don’t like them much so far. From what I’ve seen it’s too generic as far as my tastes are concerned. I had an ooze champ cast slow on me. How does an ooze cast spells? Why are there ooze champs at all? Is it possible the monster champion system could have been accomplished while simultaneously trying to make some sense?

It reminded me of what’s been done with the loot system. Vorpal quarterstaff? Rapier of stunning?

It reminded me of the horrible way epic spells were implemented. Feats? No spell list?

It reminded me of the way spiked chains were introduced. As a superpower for a specific race?


It seems like you’re trying to absolutely kill anything that distinguishes one monster from another. Every monster has a chance of being a champ and they seem to all draw champ abilities from the same table. They are too generic and this wipes out any traits that make a monster type a unique challenge. Just like all weapons having the same exact prefixes and suffixes no matter what weapon type, all monster champs get the same abilities and are thus no different from one another. If there has to be ooze champs, why not make an ooze champ table they can draw from? Give them some ooze-like abilities rather than casting wizard spells?

I would suggest creating at least a few different tables for champs. These could include as examples: ooze table, caster table, warrior table, undead table (separating it by intelligent vs non-intelligent perhaps), aberration table, etc. (haven't thought it out entirely but these are just some thoughts) Use some ideas from existing monster feats/traits to guide what these could be.

It would be nice to see, for example, a Bard champion that, instead of just hitting for extra damage or whatever, sang songs and buffed enemies. Get rid of the gold crown and let them do actions that players could potentially identify as different from the other monsters (such as singing). You could perhaps see an enemy warpriest hit consecrated ground or inflame. Enemy warrior champs could have noticeable action boosts appear overhead. If this seems like too much to develop, just remember that it can evolve. If you have 5 different champ types with 5 different abilities each that could start things off. Over time, add some more types and add more abilities to existing types. This would allow for continued evolution while maintaining some distinction between the types of enemies we face.


TL;DR Find a balance between ease of implementation and complexity. Turn off World of Warcraft and stop playing Diablo. Pick up some Dungeons and Dragons books and find ideas there.

This. /signed

[Severlin]

Hey Sev,

Thanks for replying.

Now that I see you have a little green light on...

Korthos? > The Harbor?

Does something so unpredictable make you uncomfortable for our players with Starter Gear and zero knowledge?

It does me.

Thanks for your efforts and - with tweaking - Champions could be a great addition.

We don't envision starting players with Starter Gear and zero knowledge playing on Hard or Elite.

Sev~

[Aletys]

27% is not really significant considering it takes most groups at least 27% more time to complete on Elite than it would on Hard.

Still, I'm sure 27-40 is possible as the other poster claimed, but I would like to see the math on how it works out.

True, but then you don't have to do it again for the favor, which would be way more time than 27%.

[legendkilleroll]

~ Overall we like the system and have had fun with it. A lot of players played with the system over the weekend. That said, even our most hardcore devs agree there are probably just too many Monster Champions, especially on Hard. We plan on reducing the spawn chance by around ~20% on Elite and ~40% on Hard. This will include minions and orange name bosses.

~ We are also looking at damage. There is some content where the damage is higher than we are comfortable with. We will probably dial back the damage increase as well. We want feedback on the possiblity that damage boosts for minion and orange named bosses will drop by about 20%.

~ We agree with players that it would be cool to have the Champions have a chance to give an extra reward such as Champion tokens. We like the suggestion that tokens can be turned in for some crafting materials and are looking into that.


Sev~

Im cool with spawn rates being reduced, just feel if the damage is altered its just gonna go back to how it was before, just another mob. For heroics maybe but i cant say for that as i havent ran any but EE especially i like how the champion is the danger man and you have to eliminate him quickly

What crafting mats? Phlogs im listening but most others i dont know, XP/guild pots, seeds/comms id prefer things like that

[Qhualor]

Well, you clearly haven't run Korthos on elite at level. I'll leave it at that.

ive run Sunny side on a first life barbarian character using just chest loot gear on elite only. does that count? probably not. I didn't do Snowy side yet.

[Livmo]

We don't envision starting players with Starter Gear and zero knowledge playing on Hard or Elite.

Sev~

Maybe do away with 28pt builds and start new first lifers at 32pt builds?

Just a suggestion to help new folks.

[SiliconScout]

I love the new champions. Please don't reduce spawn rate or difficulty.

I'm not a power gamer. My static group isn't quite up to running EEs, so we run EH and for the most part we've been able to complete quests on autopilot with little chance of failure. The first time we ran into three champions in EH Crucible we wiped. Now we know that we have to adjust our play style and take a little more care. The champions have added enough difficulty to make EH exciting but not too difficult for a more casual group.

I would like to see some tangible reward for defeating a champion, such as a small amount of XP or renown. I don't think they all need to drop chests (who really needs more vendor trash?) but some thing.

I will want to make sure that my name is added to the list of "keep it".

I think it could be tweaked a little. The spawn rate for one.. it's higher than 10% of the monsters that I face. I suspect the 10% is relative to the number of mobs in a dungeon not the number that actually spawn as I know I am seeing them in nearly every group often multiples so just set it at a straight 10%. The orange and red names are already harder they don't need an increased % of being a champion.

I would like to see one change and that is make every single one drop a chest but don't put vendor trash in it. Give them XP stones on par with silver rolls and guild renown and that is it and I think you will find that the rewards come out to a decent balance.

Also they probably have a bug in there as far as damage goes as a handful do hit a LOT harder than others, in particular when they get x2 damage boost buffs. Maybe tweak the code so that they can't have more than 1 of the same buff.

All in all I am happy to have them in, it's made it necessary to use some tactics again and that isn't a bad thing at all. If we can make those times when 4+ mobs in the same spawn group are champions very VERY rare and it's completely manageable.

[BD_]

Greetings!

We have been reading player feedback, data gathering how players did over the weekend with Monster Champions in place, and playing with the content ourselves. Although we are still data-mining, I wanted to give players our initial impressions of all of this.

~ Overall we like the system and have had fun with it. A lot of players played with the system over the weekend. That said, even our most hardcore devs agree there are probably just too many Monster Champions, especially on Hard. We plan on reducing the spawn chance by around ~20% on Elite and ~40% on Hard. This will include minions and orange name bosses.

~ We are also looking at damage. There is some content where the damage is higher than we are comfortable with. We will probably dial back the damage increase as well. We want feedback on the possiblity that damage boosts for minion and orange named bosses will drop by about 20%.

We are looking for feedback for these proposed changes as we want to make those changes this week.

~ We agree with players that it would be cool to have the Champions have a chance to give an extra reward such as Champion tokens. We like the suggestion that tokens can be turned in for some crafting materials and are looking into that.

~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they need to take less damage from Monster Champions. That change is somewhat involved and wouldn't be put in until the next patch.

Sev~

40% less champion spawns of orange mobs is still 60% champions in many areas...

20% less champion damage in some areas would still be more than any normal "boss" mob and more than most raid bosses in some areas, in other areas 20% less champion damage would mean champions deal next to no damage... Also remove or seriously tone down the second wind damage buff - and fix on hit xxx damage buffs to actually work only on hit.

There are some mobs that should never be champions - (stuff in the rat maze in Tomb of the Tormented for example, mobs that spawn literally on top of you should at the very least have a very low chance of being a champion if not zero chance...)

I understand this will take time, but you really should go through on a per quest basis and mark certain mobs as cannot be champion and others as extremely lowered chances at being champions... and fix the bugs...

As long as the chance for champions to spawn is universal there will be the unintended consequence of making certain quests extremely difficulty while most others are only marginally effected by champions.

[Severlin]

Dear Severlin,

thank you for posting some considerations on companies part.
I am wondering, do you not test these changes you do yourself? These problems had to have come up during the development time, I guess. And during the development you have to jingle some numbers. This new development is like most of the others before, not suitable for life just now.
How does it get so far that you bring something life that you have to change it 7 days later?

It's an honest question. I - as a customer - like to know how your process is in developping the game I am spending money on.

I would be happy about a reply.
Thank you in advance.

We played with the system a lot. I personally started with the Delara's and the Droam series with Champions on and didn't run into too many issues, even in the Minotaur city where they where constantly spawning because my build didn't have a stun for the runts. I moved on the Menechtarun and ran the series to reach the Demonweb Pit with Epic characters. That's just me, and doesn't even speak to all the content Q/A and other devs ran. We also had the champions up for weeks on Lamannia and tweaked based on feedback there.

That said, it's a numbers game. Sometimes the sheer number of players on live mean that the extreme low chances of hitting too many Champions will happen more often just due to numbers. You see some of the outlier cases you may not see in testing. The other problem is we can't generate the same kind of data with a Q/A team or even with Lamannia that as we do when we datamine on the live servers. We are always looking for player feedback and data to mine and we need to be willing to tweak even after an update goes live.

Sev~