Remove Glancing Blows

[RequiemVampie]

While the glancing or grazing blows can be a pain sometimes, you also have to consider that weapon effects will also have a chance to affecting the glancing blow. Just the other night on my monk, I hit two targets with a Quivering Palm attack at the same time. They both failed their save. I thought it was freaking hilarious.

[Pwesiela]

While the glancing or grazing blows can be a pain sometimes, you also have to consider that weapon effects will also have a chance to affecting the glancing blow. Just the other night on my monk, I hit two targets with a Quivering Palm attack at the same time. They both failed their save. I thought it was freaking hilarious.

Umm... Sorry to nitpick but,

First, grazing hits have a 0% chance of applying weapon effects. It's only the base damage of the weapon.

Second, glancing blows only happen on two handed weapons. Fists aren't counted as thf.

Third, you applied quivering palm to two different monsters because you have two weapon fighting (which does effect fists), killed one with the first hit and hit the other with the offhand strike.

As an aside on grazing hits: try putting on heavy plate mail and have a friend hit you with a staff. You might not break any bones, but you'll likely get a nasty bruise.

[TechNoFear]

Perhapes you didn't not see the grazing hit I got on a 10.

No I didn't.

The 2 grazes are when you rolled 11 and 13 with a +10 modifier.

The only time you rolled a 10 was to confirm a crit.

[SquelchHU]

Mah he just agress on the wordinf of Nurf. I think its not even worthy to be called a Nurf, he doesn't think its a big deal. Pretty close.


You seem to believe its NURF! OMG OMG OMG NURF! which IT IS NOT.

Once i get this screen recorder working and find some mobs with appropriate damages.

(so far in the harbor, have only been able to find monsters on nromal and hrd that graze for 1 damage either way. Gotta find some monsters whose grazing hits have a bit of a ranger to them. Thinking of rolling a swarf and grtabbing some cr 3 ogres.)

*shrugs* I'm just correcting incorrect statements. Carry on.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

No I didn't.

The 2 grazes are when you rolled 11 and 13 with a +10 modifier.

The only time you rolled a 10 was to confirm a crit.

Oh sorry about that, it was in the logs of when I fought the spiders in the spider's nest. Though this was brought to my attention that Players can do it on a 10, something I did not think it did (Cause I didn't know they gave a detailed description of how they worked in the compendium)

[Mhykke]

While that is the first I looked up what the release notes of grazing hits. I still don't agree with them.

I just want to ask you something, to make sure I understood you.

You are saying to the person you replied to that you clicked on his link and that was the first you looked at how grazing hits worked, correct?

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

I just want to ask you something, to make sure I understood you.

You are saying to the person you replied to that you clicked on his link and that was the first you looked at how grazing hits worked, correct?

Do you need to know how something works to know that if it is EXPANDED on that it is going to be a horrible thing... I don't believe so

Remember what was the DPS fix? Monsters with a LOT of hit points to the point that caster's have to use instant kill spells to be accepted by parties. Crowd Control and damage spells are often ridiculed (I know not everyone does. But I see a LOT of it "Why are you using wall of fire? Just PK and Finger of Death.")

[Aranticus]

While that is the first I looked up what the release notes of grazing hits. I still don't agree with them. So players hit 50% of the time, and monsters at MOST hit 35% of the time. It's still something that is very annoying. What about caster AC Builds (they can get them +6-8 AC bracers or other, high dex, +5 Mithral Light or Heavy (if they want to deal with the spell failure), and other AC boosting items. They get hit 50% of the time their spells could fail (I know if they bothered putting anything in concentration they shouldn't, but I don't know if a 1 auto fails on that)

how many caster AC builds have you seen in the past 3 years or whatever length of time you playing. also a caster main defense is not AC but spells such as displacement, jump, haste, etc. i only know 1 high level caster without quicken. that is someone who is unable to solo the earth elemental in shroud part 2

[Mhykke]

Do you need to know how something works to know that if it is EXPANDED on that it is going to be a horrible thing... I don't believe so

Remember what was the DPS fix? Monsters with a LOT of hit points to the point that caster's have to use instant kill spells to be accepted by parties. Crowd Control and damage spells are often ridiculed (I know not everyone does. But I see a LOT of it "Why are you using wall of fire? Just PK and Finger of Death.")

So in other words, no, you didn't bother looking to see how grazing hits worked before starting a thread on it in order to complain about grazing hits. Heck, you didn't even know what they were called.

And you expect people to discuss this issue with you intelligently, why exactly? If you can't even bother to check up on how something works before you open up your piehole in order to complain about it, you don't deserve any rational responses.

Nuff said.

[Pwesiela]

So in other words, no, you didn't bother looking to see how grazing hits worked before starting a thread on it in order to complain about grazing hits. Heck, you didn't even know what they were called.

And you expect people to discuss this issue with you intelligently, why exactly? If you can't even bother to check up on how something works before you open up your piehole in order to complain about it, you don't deserve any rational responses.

Nuff said.

Indeed

[Strakeln]

You call it what you want. It doesn't matter it gimps something that wasn't overpowering the game.

Stoneskin, even when cast from a wand, essentially neutralizes grazing hits on AC builds.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

So in other words, no, you didn't bother looking to see how grazing hits worked before starting a thread on it in order to complain about grazing hits. Heck, you didn't even know what they were called.

And you expect people to discuss this issue with you intelligently, why exactly? If you can't even bother to check up on how something works before you open up your piehole in order to complain about it, you don't deserve any rational responses.

Nuff said.

Guess what, learning how it works still doesn't change my idea about it. so players hit 50% of the time GUARANTEED while monsters hit at most 35% of the time.

Still a Nurf... Still not needed... Still Annoying. But I'm SOOOO glad I looked up how it works so I can know how it works and still make the same demand that it is taken out of the game as much as before.

All that changed from my viewpoint, is people don't want to address the main issue, and would rather nit pick at the little things then explaining to me WHY Grazing hits are a good thing. So the damage is minor...

It will still stop you from using a lever or door if it hits you

As a caster it could interrupt your spells (no one has addressed my question about if you roll a 1 on a concentration check you will fail)

Changing a Stance? Not if you get grazing hit. It add NOTHING but frustration in situations, that was never there before. Before you only had to worry about it happening 5% of the time. Now it's 10% to 35% of the time. 2 to 7 TIMES MORE

That's a GOOD THING? Sure stone skin gives you DR which protects you from taking the damage, but it also reduces the effectiveness of stone skin and could cause it to end earlier and possibly in a bad spot (say after you made your way through a group of trash mobs and get to the red named)

Also at level 1-5, what's stone skin? That is the BIGGEST point hit by grazing hits, when the damage can be up to 50% of a character's total HP over the course of a quest. (around 46 kobolds in Kobold's new ring leader each will get off an average of 3 attacks on elite at that level. So 46*3=138*35%=48.3*1.75(average d6 damage/2)=84.525 HP of damage on Average

Kobold's New Ring Leader on elite is a level 4 quest. Tell me what non-con build has that many hit points. So running Kobold's New Ring Leader on elite, grazing hits does enough damage to KILL 1 player every time

I've never been complaining that the damage is significant at HIGH levels. I've been saying it is significant at LOW levels. Someone want to apply the math I did up there to a high level quest. My high levels are my halfling thrower which doesn't go into Melee that often (does a little but not much) and casters (Sorc and Clerics)

[RobbinB]

Totally arbitrary. If the rules says that a monk will gets graze at least some of the time, then he does. Period.
If turbine institutes crappy arbitrary rule changes that don't improve the game and don't even make conceptual sense on top of that, then color me stupid, but I'm gonna let them know. I thought you were like that too.

Don't use your preconceived notion that he should not be hit. Instead, try to picture what the fight would look like. I'm sure you can do it.

I can. And it's an awful mess. So my halfling monk is this tiny firefly with supernatural speed and reflexes and godly ability to visualize the flow of combat such that I'm untouchable by most enemies. So I'm facing off against some huge nasty creature 10 times my size with a sword twice my size, if he hits me squarely he'll likely cleave me in two. But I'm so good, 95% of the time I leave him whiffing at air, like Barry Bonds swinging against a good knuckle ball. Somehow though, 50% of those swings do manage to contact me and hurt me. Maybe it's just the huge rush of air knocking against me, I don't know...Sorry, doesn't fit. You can dig your heals in, but many other posters also say it doesn't fit. I'm with them.

Did you even play pre-Module 8 Elite content that was not end game?

Yes, but I think you already know that. Or you should. I just don't have a problem hitting things. But then again, I equip weapons with a high plus too hit....I make sure I'm proficient in them...I flank opponents...I use destruction weapons on bosses (even though lots of times it's not really necessary...if I'm dex-based I have the weapon finesse feat...And if I'm fighting a "fighter" type enemy in full-plate on elite and if I roll a 4 and miss, umm, I don't think that's a problem....On the other hand I do wonder when I hit said opponent on a 2. Don't you?

If the problem was that they could not hit on every hit, grazing hits would not have the form it has today. How easy it is to hit monsters at end game is a good reasons to add grazing hits. I already said so in the post you quoted, were you paying attention?
I was addressing the rationale that players exiting the game were complaining about not being able to hit frequently enough. Since it is fairly easy to hit the vast majority of mobs in DDO that argument just doesn't hold water. (I doubt very much that 1 week trial members were reaching level 8, trying bam and tempest spine and having trouble with the blackguards, and then saying "screw this game")

Were you paying attention? It's like we're talking about different things.

[Aspenor]

Were you paying attention? It's like we're talking about different things.

Here's the problem with that argument: it doesn't really take into account what hit points really are. Being "hit" in Dungeons and Dragons does not necessarily mean you were directly hit. Hit points are an abstraction of a character's stamina in battle. AC is not necessarily how hard they are to hit, but is an abstraction of evasiveness and stamina combined.

A "hit" in DnD merely means that your character's stamina was lowered, not that he was stabbed or slashed open. Maybe it was a near miss, maybe it was a parry of a vicious attack that left his arm numb from the vibrations of his weapon. Maybe it was the monk having to perform extreme maneuvers that leave him more tired.

AC and hit points are abstractions, and grazing hits reinstitutes these abstractions. An elite monster would tire out a monk faster than a normal monster, whether he's being directly hit for blood or not.

[Pwesiela]

Here's the problem with that argument: it doesn't really take into account what hit points really are. Being "hit" in Dungeons and Dragons does not necessarily mean you were directly hit. Hit points are an abstraction of a character's stamina in battle. AC is not necessarily how hard they are to hit, but is an abstraction of evasiveness and stamina combined.

A "hit" in DnD merely means that your character's stamina was lowered, not that he was stabbed or slashed open. Maybe it was a near miss, maybe it was a parry of a vicious attack that left his arm numb from the vibrations of his weapon. Maybe it was the monk having to perform extreme maneuvers that leave him more tired.

AC and hit points are abstractions, and grazing hits reinstitutes these abstractions. An elite monster would tire out a monk faster than a normal monster, whether he's being directly hit for blood or not.

What are you talking about Asp????

I mean, c'mon. In real life, I can take a direct stab to my abdomen with a rapier and still fight for ages!! Of course hp stand for how much life I actually have!! With even 1 hp, I can fight like I haven't been scratched!

[Aranticus]

As a caster it could interrupt your spells (no one has addressed my question about if you roll a 1 on a concentration check you will fail)

skill checks NEVER fail on a 1 like saves do. you either have enough or not enough

That's a GOOD THING? Sure stone skin gives you DR which protects you from taking the damage, but it also reduces the effectiveness of stone skin and could cause it to end earlier and possibly in a bad spot (say after you made your way through a group of trash mobs and get to the red named)

Also at level 1-5, what's stone skin? That is the BIGGEST point hit by grazing hits, when the damage can be up to 50% of a character's total HP over the course of a quest. (around 46 kobolds in Kobold's new ring leader each will get off an average of 3 attacks on elite at that level. So 46*3=138*35%=48.3*1.75(average d6 damage/2)=84.525 HP of damage on Average

Kobold's New Ring Leader on elite is a level 4 quest. Tell me what non-con build has that many hit points. So running Kobold's New Ring Leader on elite, grazing hits does enough damage to KILL 1 player every time

this is where tactics come into play, you can trip if you are a melee, if a wizard, try charming a few, clerics can command foes. what grazing does is to reduce the number of charge blindly into huge groups of mobs mentality

I've never been complaining that the damage is significant at HIGH levels. I've been saying it is significant at LOW levels. Someone want to apply the math I did up there to a high level quest. My high levels are my halfling thrower which doesn't go into Melee that often (does a little but not much) and casters (Sorc and Clerics)

i've been leveling a human ranger and a wf barbarian, grazing hit while it can affect you is never a problem. it forces players to adopt more careful approaches ie pull 1 or 2 mobs at a time, use cc, etc. this reduces the probability of a grazing hit significantly

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

i've been leveling a human ranger and a wf barbarian, grazing hit while it can affect you is never a problem. it forces players to adopt more careful approaches ie pull 1 or 2 mobs at a time, use cc, etc. this reduces the probability of a grazing hit significantly

Well there are so few skill you have to roll on as well. I've rolled 1's on Balance on my halfling thrower and not gotten up, and balance is one of the skills I took from level 1. (meaning at level 20 it was over 36. 16 base +10 dex + 10 item + any buffs I could get like GH)

Another thing is how many people do you play with follow a strategy? I couldn't get people to follow a strategy in STK, Grave Robbers, Haunted Library, or any other quest. They all wanted this "I run up to the enemy and swing my weapon."

[Aranticus]

Well there are so few skill you have to roll on as well. I've rolled 1's on Balance on my halfling thrower and not gotten up, and balance is one of the skills I took from level 1. (meaning at level 20 it was over 36. 16 base +10 dex + 10 item + any buffs I could get like GH)

Another thing is how many people do you play with follow a strategy? I couldn't get people to follow a strategy in STK, Grave Robbers, Haunted Library, or any other quest. They all wanted this "I run up to the enemy and swing my weapon."

it really depends on what you are rolling against and how high is the DC. also, you seem to be confused at times what your experience is on, quoting the wrong thing

how do i make people follow strategy? gang up with the healer! dead people learn quick enough. also most players, especially those who come to the forums recognise me

[Chimaira]

Because the petition to reduce the HP of creatures in the games has already been out for a while, but the Devs play to much wow I guess

There are a lot of things I would like to see fixed before they "Fix" problems from complaints of people with gimped toons leaving the game

Turning - Face it the only thing people use turns per day is for things that ARE NOT turning
Inflated HP - 1,000 HP and more is just getting ridiculous
Spell Resistance - If someone can't bypass it AT level with a 18, it's broken (that's 15% of the time they get through btw)
Saves - They aren't TO high on mobs, but they are pretty high when sometimes the only time you get them is 5% of the time (btw that's rolling a 1 on the save for them)
Range Combat attacks - There is a problem where sometimes you attack and nothing happens. Standing still toe to toe there is no attack roll for like 2-3 attacks

Funny how nobody here agrees with you. Or sad.
What is this game called? DnD Online, well it's about as DnD as WoW.

Adding this kind of stuff to make up for incompetence on earlier game decisions leaves you going in an endless spiral. This is what it's like:

Game is made, melee characters attack fast as hell. Melee characters should never have attacked fast as hell in the first place, 1 attack per round, 4 tops at 16 BAB, how hard is that to put into the game? Not hard at all since NWN got it just fine.

Ok so melee characters attack fast as hell, but now mobs die too fast because of the speed of attack, so every Mob's HP and attack damage is increased in order to keep the game from being a total freaking cakewalk.

But now casters are gimped because their spells do crappy damage and they can only cast so many a day, so in goes the SP system so that people playing WoW can feel at home with a blue bar under their health bar.

And it goes on and on. If the game was made correctly in the first place, it would be able to remain true to DnD, fun and not boring or too easy. It's just too bad nobody really gives a **** about DnD and turns it into a typical internet forum discussion with amazing one-liners such as: "u sux" "omg donuts" "*** mai char takes no dmg frum grazing hitz nub" "*** DR? Hello? Omg noob".

We have enough MMO's already. Can we just have 1 frigging online DnD game? Just 1?

[Aspenor]

We have enough MMO's already. Can we just have 1 frigging online DnD game? Just 1?

No, because a real-time MMO based purely in DnD rules would suck.