RE: Patch 1 combat improvements

[Monkey_Archer]

The community has repeatedly praised 1 feature of DDO since release: the combat mechanics. The twitch style gameplay, high speed gameplay, fun and exciting active combat is a large part of what kept your VIPs subscribing (i.e. DDO differentiated itself from the slow & lazy combat of other MMOs). The combat changes in patch 1 strike a massive blow to one of the things that make DDO unique and great.

/QFT

I like that they removed the 5th animation, and that they added animations at lower BABs.... but the slow down in attack speed for all styles of all levels was a really bad move. IMO, all attack speeds should be increased by 5-10 swings a minute (essentially making them feel the same speed as prepatch)

[Emili]

I don't see how anything you just wrote is relevant to your silly claim that TWF was wow like combat.

I'm not talking about that at all... and if you bring that back up my response was TWF was more like WOW combat then 2HF... that is all it was. You admitted it took more skill to push better results on 2hf then to twf... twf you try to not break chain more often, Even when attempting to flank, which I did/do all the bloody time all the same.

My point with the statement was to to answer the fact that people want to take the "Player Skill" factor out of combat and substitute it with - you all get the same... thus two of the exact same builds end up performing the same for two different people ... playing skill ends up mattering less and less.

I'm confused aswell.
How did THF twitch nerf suddenly make the combat boring and wowish as some people claim?

Before ... player skill was more impotant, twitching is a motor skill, mor interactive. Now the result is more WOW like combat ... is better to stand there hold a button and watch the mob die instead of move around... I suppose next in line is to write a key macro which mimics intimidate and swing?

So TWF was wow combat?

Now that I think about it... in combat output... quite often yes! TWF requires more build and item dependancy for results then player skill - this being said from someone who has six twf out of 12 characters in her account. TWF is an easier playing toon is not doubt about it.

Yes, I agree. THF took more attention to play than TWF.
But dumbing TWF down to wow combat is just clueless.

Clueless? No... Standing still (which they are attempting to encourage even more) and hitting the occasional special tactic,etc... is more wow like in play as that is what you do in Wow, it's quite that simple.

[Auran82]

Tempest Ranger: All right, Orthon. I'm going to be doing this *starts swinging weapons wildly* and if you get hit, it's your own fault

[Yargore]

I'm not talking about that at all... and if you bring that back up my response was TWF was more like WOW combat then 2HF... that is all it was. You admitted it took more skill to push better results on 2hf then to twf... twf you try to not break chain more often, Even when attempting to flank, which I did/do all the bloody time all the same.

My point with the statement was to to answer the fact that people want to take the "Player Skill" factor out of combat and substitute it with - you all get the same... thus two of the exact same builds end up performing the same for two different people ... playing skill ends up mattering less and less.

Well, that's what I was talking about.
People crying "wow combat" because of the THF twitch nerf really need to rethink.

[Emili]

Well, that's what I was talking about.
People crying "wow combat" because of the THF twitch nerf really need to rethink.

We're bloody arguing the same thing... I said repeatedly I use skill to over-come the previous nerfs and flaws of my older builds... someone decided it's time to take make this loop-hole (as they see it), patch it up and encourage the game to be more build/gear dependent.

It is like my comaprison between the DPS of my human barb vs the dwarf barb both swinging greataxes... If we took both and walked up to a mob and stand there in place the average DPS output favors the dwarf. The only way I kept my average DPS above that dwarf was I was possibly better in twitching... now that is being discouraged even more. People answer back - but you can be healed easier - bloody hell, I need to be healed bloody more now as I have to stand there bloody longer getting hit by the mobs who the bloody dwarf now kill faster. Before I could have laid the mobs out and been on the next group...

Will be on tonight again playing around with the so-called "New improved system"... maybe grab some sample data for Gfunk, monkey_archer and cforce, 11 of the girls are 17+ though, who knows am disgusted right now with the overall system ... even twf.

[smatt]

I'm not talking about that at all... and if you bring that back up my response was TWF was more like WOW combat then 2HF... that is all it was. You admitted it took more skill to push better results on 2hf then to twf... twf you try to not break chain more often, Even when attempting to flank, which I did/do all the bloody time all the same.

My point with the statement was to to answer the fact that people want to take the "Player Skill" factor out of combat and substitute it with - you all get the same... thus two of the exact same builds end up performing the same for two different people ... playing skill ends up mattering less and less.


Before ... player skill was more impotant, twitching is a motor skill, mor interactive. Now the result is more WOW like combat ... is better to stand there hold a button and watch the mob die instead of move around... I suppose next in line is to write a key macro which mimics intimidate and swing?


Now that I think about it... in combat output... quite often yes! TWF requires more build and item dependancy for results then player skill - this being said from someone who has six twf out of 12 characters in her account. TWF is an easier playing toon is not doubt about it.



Clueless? No... Standing still (which they are attempting to encourage even more) and hitting the occasional special tactic,etc... is more wow like in play as that is what you do in Wow, it's quite that simple.

I THINK what they were tyring to do is remove the attack rate advantage of breaking the attack animations with movement (twitch). Now whether you were doing it merely by fronting and doing a quik step back and then forward or by flanking around your opponent is irrenlevant. If you were the flanking type you would still in theory get the advanatge of the increased to hit #'s while also in theory be getting hit less by your opponent. But in any case the advantage of getting perhaps as many as 40 more attack per minute by twitching on a THF is removed. It seems like that's what they were tyring to do... Whether that's actually the case or not remains to be proven.

[The_Phenx]

I think the easiest fix...put the bab16 attack speed for twf back at bab 16...and set the "round" length based on a bab 20 twf... which should be about a 10% increase in swing rate vs the change.

The Dps output is fine, the whole game just feels muted and slow... and it needs to be sped back up.

[EDarkness]

I just wanted to chime in with everyone else about the attack speed issue. It's great and all that my character's combat numbers are good, but the speed of the combat just seems off. I'll admit, I have no idea what TWF and THF stand for, as I have only recently started playing. However, whatever those things are I hope you guys can find a better compromise than to slow the combat down. At first, I thought my computer was lagging, but later someone in the game explained the situation to me. Please change it back.

[Ciaran]

I just wanted to chime in with everyone else about the attack speed issue. It's great and all that my character's combat numbers are good, but the speed of the combat just seems off. I'll admit, I have no idea what TWF and THF stand for, as I have only recently started playing. However, whatever those things are I hope you guys can find a better compromise than to slow the combat down. At first, I thought my computer was lagging, but later someone in the game explained the situation to me. Please change it back.

THF = Two Handed Fighting as in using a two-handed weapon such as a greatsword or greataxe.

TWF = Two Weapon Fighting as in using a one-handed weapon in each hand.

[Emili]

No, you are saying that DDO have wow combat, while I'm saying that's bullsh*t.

No do not put bloody words in my mouth I did not say that... I'm saying is if they make it so everyone is doing the same bloody keyboard interaction it will feel more WoWish. Standing still on the mob and swinging with occasional special attacks tossed in is WoW. Moving around while fighting is not WoW... they are encouraging the WoW approach and discouraging the DDO approach.

[Eladrin]

We're planning on making changes to the changes, I'll announce more once I've got some concrete stats for people.

[cdbd3rd]

We're planning on making changes to the changes, I'll announce more once I've got some concrete stats for people.

Sweeeeet....

[Yargore]

No do not put bloody words in my mouth I did not say that... I'm saying is if they make it so everyone is doing the same bloody keyboard interaction it will feel more WoWish. Standing still on the mob and swinging with occasional special attacks tossed in is WoW. Moving around while fighting is not WoW... they are encouraging the WoW approach and discouraging the DDO approach.

Don't lie.

So TWF was wow combat?

Now that I think about it... in combat output... quite often yes!

See, there you said that DDO has wow combat.

My point from the start was just to point out how the crowd crying about DDO turning to wow just because THF twitching now is weaker fails.
TWF = non twitch, but it's still very active and faaaar from wow combat.

[Monkey_Archer]

We're planning on making changes to the changes, I'll announce more once I've got some concrete stats for people.

allow me to be first to suggest that attack speeds be changed to 75+(BAB/2) attacks per minute.

Why?

It would provide a noticable speed up for low BABs (where most of the complaints seem to be coming from)
BAB 16 TWF would be identical to what it was pre-patch (83 swings per minute)
You could remove that extra offhand attack for TWF.....

[Thrudh]

Before ... player skill was more impotant, twitching is a motor skill, mor interactive. Now the result is more WOW like combat ... is better to stand there hold a button and watch the mob die instead of move around... I suppose next in line is to write a key macro which mimics intimidate and swing?

What are you people talking about? "Twitching" was not a skill that made combat more immersive... It was a stupid mechanic to get your swing rate up...

Tactical movement is still alive... When I fight multiple enemies, I move around all the time... Keep one troll between you and the other one, etc.

THAT is tactical movement. "Twitching" while beating on a raid boss was nothing special.. It was annoying as hell. Thank God it's gone...

[Vivanto]

What are you people talking about? "Twitching" was not a skill that made combat more immersive... It was a stupid mechanic to get your swing rate up...

Tactical movement is still alive... When I fight multiple enemies, I move around all the time... Keep one troll between you and the other one, etc.

THAT is tactical movement. "Twitching" while beating on a raid boss was nothing special.. It was annoying as hell. Thank God it's gone...

As much as I liked the extra dps from twitching, I 100% agree! There are still many many places where it is beneficial to move around an opponent, change targets, run like mad, dodge ray spells, block, evade combo attacks from ogres/trolls, do whatever, call it twitch or tactical movement.

But I never heard a player say to the dm "I'm gonna strafe small bits every split round to break my attack chain and do more damage for no apparent reason"

The most important thing with an active combat system is mobility, not twitching.

[The_Phenx]

We're planning on making changes to the changes, I'll announce more once I've got some concrete stats for people.

Poor Eladrin.. overall I think the concept is great... just some tweaking on the execution.

The actual increase in dps concept as you level is great, and is a good goal.

[The_Phenx]

as Much As I Liked The Extra Dps From Twitching, I 100% Agree! There Are Still Many Many Places Where It Is Beneficial To Move Around An Opponent, Change Targets, Run Like Mad, Dodge Ray Spells, Block, Evade Combo Attacks From Ogres/trolls, Do Whatever, Call It Twitch Or Tactical Movement.

But I Never Heard A Player Say To The Dm "i'm Gonna Strafe Small Bits Every Split Round To Break My Attack Chain And Do More Damage For No Apparent Reason"

The Most Important Thing With An Active Combat System Is Mobility, Not Twitching.

/qft

[Emili]

What are you people talking about? "Twitching" was not a skill that made combat more immersive... It was a stupid mechanic to get your swing rate up...

Tactical movement is still alive... When I fight multiple enemies, I move around all the time... Keep one troll between you and the other one, etc.

THAT is tactical movement. "Twitching" while beating on a raid boss was nothing special.. It was annoying as hell. Thank God it's gone...

Which I do and still do... so do not even go there. Overall the game play feels muddy now, it takes more resouces and the visual of it all is lacking.

[maddmatt70]

What are you people talking about? "Twitching" was not a skill that made combat more immersive... It was a stupid mechanic to get your swing rate up...

Tactical movement is still alive... When I fight multiple enemies, I move around all the time... Keep one troll between you and the other one, etc.

THAT is tactical movement. "Twitching" while beating on a raid boss was nothing special.. It was annoying as hell. Thank God it's gone...

You lose dps while moving around so tactical movement was definitely hurt by this change. I understand that there are alot of players that enjoy the moving so the opponent misses you style. It really is a bummer they have reduced that style's effectiveness. I think a different solution to reduce the advantage of twitch attacking should have been implemented.