Can we come to a compromise? - My respec proposal

[Arianrhod]

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If one of the four static party members became dissatisfied with their character and quit, we would probably all quit the game. Its sad, but true. Of course its not likely to happen because we all did our homework and built our characters very well.

I suspect there may be a lot of people who play this way (it's how my friends and I play as well), and this is why I keep trying to advocate (though I think it gets lost in the roar of the RAIDRAIDRAID crowd, heh) for keeping plenty of content at all levels completable with this playstyle. Have enough quests for these groups to level up without having to repeat stuff, and have those quests completable without rare gear or piles of consumables, and you'll keep the casuals. Dissatisfaction with build (at least on the part of casuals) comes more from struggling through quests at level on Normal, and running out of quests before leveling, than any feeling of inadequacy next to the powergamers.

[Zenako]

I suspect there may be a lot of people who play this way (it's how my friends and I play as well), and this is why I keep trying to advocate (though I think it gets lost in the roar of the RAIDRAIDRAID crowd, heh) for keeping plenty of content at all levels completable with this playstyle. Have enough quests for these groups to level up without having to repeat stuff, and have those quests completable without rare gear or piles of consumables, and you'll keep the casuals. Dissatisfaction with build (at least on the part of casuals) comes more from struggling through quests at level on Normal, and running out of quests before leveling, than any feeling of inadequacy next to the powergamers.

Using the explorer areas for EXP is one effective way to get more EXP while leveling. CH is "easy", Waterworks is a drag to get the max slayer, but worth it while getting the rares, SH is a real tester better handled at the upper end unless experienced, TR is good for some pretty easy EXP, Three Barrel Cove is a great explorer area with lots of shrines (compared to the one each in TR and SH) and tons of stuff to fight in different ways, and by then you are onto Sorrowdusk... Sure there is no favor from those areas, but there is loot and experience to be gained, significant chunks of experience.

[Arianrhod]

Using the explorer areas for EXP is one effective way to get more EXP while leveling. CH is "easy", Waterworks is a drag to get the max slayer, but worth it while getting the rares, SH is a real tester better handled at the upper end unless experienced, TR is good for some pretty easy EXP, Three Barrel Cove is a great explorer area with lots of shrines (compared to the one each in TR and SH) and tons of stuff to fight in different ways, and by then you are onto Sorrowdusk... Sure there is no favor from those areas, but there is loot and experience to be gained, significant chunks of experience.

True, but it can be quite a shock to go from Sorrowdusk to Ataraxia's Haven. The abrupt increase in difficulty level between, say, 9 & 10 can be, shall we say, a bit offputting to casuals leveling their first characters

[Borror0]

Level tokens expiration: I would rather not see a 20th level fighter change to a 14 fighter/6 ranger by taking levels 2-7 as ranger and jumping back to 20 using the tokens. I would suggest either that any gain of XP wipes all tokens or you cannot gain XP until you have used your tokens or discarded them. In other words, you need to use all your token at once for any tokens you wish to use. Any new class levels have to be taken at the high end of your levels.

While I see where you're getting at, level order matters when building a character.

Any respec method that do not account that reality will be a poor one. Just think of a ranger respec'ing to a rogue splash for traps. If he can take the splash at level two, his character can be build. "Force" him to take the rogue level at level 1, and the character is impossible.

This increases the low level activity, so I see this as a trade off.

[Borror0]

Is it the core character that they need to fix (making loot not the issue) or is it a misfit of loot that they want to address.

Well, the general idea is that losing loot represents the biggest cost in rerolling.

Oh, sure, running the low level content with a character nearly identical with the one we had before may be irritating but the biggest cost really is losing all the bound gear because it takes so much time and so much grind to return to where we were at before.

...and, most importantly, that part won't be fun for us.

[Aganazer]

Using the explorer areas for EXP is one effective way to get more EXP while leveling. CH is "easy", Waterworks is a drag to get the max slayer, but worth it while getting the rares, SH is a real tester better handled at the upper end unless experienced, TR is good for some pretty easy EXP, Three Barrel Cove is a great explorer area with lots of shrines (compared to the one each in TR and SH) and tons of stuff to fight in different ways, and by then you are onto Sorrowdusk... Sure there is no favor from those areas, but there is loot and experience to be gained, significant chunks of experience.

It is good and easy exp. Whenever one of our members is out for the night this is what we usually do. We have completed all the explorer quests up to and including Ataraxia's Haven so far. The slayer quests and rare boss quests require too many repeats though. My favorite was probably the Searing Heights. I wish there were some real quests there.

Looking at the quest list, we may have to make a hard decision at about level 12. Repeat or unsub. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it though. I've had too many years of creating and leading guilds (UO and EQ), organizing and leading raids (WoW), and dealing with all the BS involved in PUG's. There are plenty of games we can play that fit our casual play style with more coming out faster than we can complete them.

[Borror0]

Looking at the quest list, we may have to make a hard decision at about level 12. Repeat or unsub.

I'd be interested in a post of your whole impression, from beginning to end, when you either unsub or reach cap. Feedback, reasons others quit, etc.

I know that may be a lot to ask, but I'd love to read/hear it.

[Strakeln]

From Tarrant, in one of the closed respec threads:

There are many threads about this topic already, please use one of them.

Hmmmm.

So... uh.... do you think that maybe... just possibly... you should shove a dev into one of these threads and have him/her talk about it? Or create a locked thread with an official Turbine response?

Oh, right, that's communication with your customers. So I guess this time we'll take the usual: you tell us you'll release the info to 3rd party sites. Which is great, because we've been so overburdened with info since that change and all...

[SableShadow]

So... uh.... do you think that maybe... just possibly... you should shove a dev into one of these threads and have him/her talk about it? Or create a locked thread with an official Turbine response?

It takes time to craft post for a broad audience, and, if Turbine doesn't already have something on the drawing board, even more time to kick around various options. I can't really blame a dev for not wanting to step into the maelstrom.

Oh, right, that's communication with your customers. So I guess this time we'll take the usual: you tell us you'll release the info to 3rd party sites. Which is great, because we've been so overburdened with info since that change and all...

I don't think this is entirely fair; there's a trade show coming up, and likely they've been told by powers on high "don't steal the thunder"....that's bound to make them significantly more cautious than normal about commenting on game mechanics.

[Borror0]

I don't think this is entirely fair; there's a trade show coming up, and likely they've been told by powers on high "don't steal the thunder"....that's bound to make them significantly more cautious than normal about commenting on game mechanics.

...they had two other occasions to show off. Took none of them.

Was there even screenshots of Shavarath on other third party website before we saw them? Of course not. Did Kate post her letter on a third party website? Of course not. Did we get any information in the year since they implemented this new system? No, we did not.

If that truly was their intention at first, they have a short memory.

[SableShadow]

...they had two other occasions to show off. Took none of them.

Was there even screenshots of Shavarath on other third party website before we saw them? Of course not. Did Kate post her letter on a third party website? Of course not. Did we get any information in the year since they implemented this new system? No, we did not.

If that truly was their intention at first, they have a short memory.

Yeah, I could just be full of it.

[sephiroth1084]

Yeah, I could just be full of it.

More likely naively hopeful? But then, aren't we all?

[SableShadow]

More likely naively hopeful? But then, aren't we all?

Well...I don't track 3rd party sites; I mean, if there's a game out there that might interest me, I'll track its progress, but I don't particularly feel the need to keep up on what's hot and what's not (I have friends of mine that do that for me....).

On the other hand...if I were in a devs shoes, I'd be trading favors with other devs so I wouldn't have to respond to the boards. Too much of my time would be eaten up trying to craft responses to minimize (not eliminate, minimize) the number of people any one of my individual posts would **** off.

[sephiroth1084]

Well...I don't track 3rd party sites; I mean, if there's a game out there that might interest me, I'll track its progress, but I don't particularly feel the need to keep up on what's hot and what's not (I have friends of mine that do that for me....).

On the other hand...if I were in a devs shoes, I'd be trading favors with other devs so I wouldn't have to respond to the boards. Too much of my time would be eaten up trying to craft responses to minimize (not eliminate, minimize) the number of people any one of my individual posts would **** off.

An undoubtedly unenviable task.

[ahpook]

While I see where you're getting at, level order matters when building a character.

Any respec method that do not account that reality will be a poor one. Just think of a ranger respec'ing to a rogue splash for traps. If he can take the splash at level two, his character can be build. "Force" him to take the rogue level at level 1, and the character is impossible.

This increases the low level activity, so I see this as a trade off.

You already place the restriction that level 1 needs to be a previously taken class:

(he can only use, as starting class, a class he had levels of previously however)

And isn't the only level where order matters at level 1 (for skill points)? If so, then my restriction is not an issue. The only thing that changes is when you can take classes that you didn't previously take. Truthully, if order is that important to you that you have to take that ranger level at level 2 instead of 16, I think you are probably more than capable at re-levelling to get the effect you want.

[Borror0]

You already place the restriction that level 1 needs to be a previously taken class and isn't the only level where order matters at level 1 (for skill points)?

Of course not.

Take the character planner and replicate the two following builds:

• Human. One rogue and then fifteen ranger. 12 Int. Maximum rank in rogue skills.
• Human. Fifteen ranger and one rogue. 12 Int. Maximum rank in rogue skills.

That's only for skills.

The level at which you take bonus feats may also matter.

[Gunga]

Don't you play Barbarians?

I'd love to know what is you 'worked out' that gives you something to gloat over - lots of Str and Con and then you got to choose one feat after the five compulsary ones right?

I've played every class in the game. I've had 14 capped toons, 2 of which I have deleted. They were deleted because I ****ed them up. My Pali, first toon ever, was built as a well rounded P&P Pali. NG, got tossed sometime before the shroud came out. My Warchanter WF Bard was built during MOD 5...I liked the idea of it. That's about as much as I ever liked. He was great up until about 10th level, when he really started getting his ass kicked and not really meleeing as well. He got to 15, did one shroud, died a lot and got deleted.

They were toons that didn't work for me. No Turbine whining here, pal.

So what changes did Turbine make that have MADE you reroll a tune?

[ahpook]

Of course not.

Take the character planner and replicate the two following builds:

• Human. One rogue and then fifteen ranger. 12 Int. Maximum rank in rogue skills.
• Human. Fifteen ranger and one rogue. 12 Int. Maximum rank in rogue skills.

That's only for skills.

Sorry, I don't get it. Isn't the difference still whether you take rogue at level 1 or not?

The level at which you take bonus feats may also matter.

That makes sense. I hadn't thought through bonus feats and min levels on feats. Practically, however, I am still not certain how often it would be an issue and in the cases where it is whether it would be onerous to require more relevelling through XP.

Perhaps there is some middle ground that allows you to insert some new classes but not allow you to gain them all the low end of the XP spectrum.

[SableShadow]

Sorry, I don't get it. Isn't the difference still whether you take rogue at level 1 or not?

Once you take the rogue level, any points you put in a rogue skill are no longer cross class. Taking a rogue level at 2 potentially gives you more than if you took the rogue level at 4 (though I don't care to do the math).

[Xyfiel]

I'll back anything if you include giving Drow a way to get their proper SR levels and/or mirror image.

Prot from arrows wouldn't be bad either.