Can we come to a compromise? - My respec proposal

**Borror0** · 03-11-2009, 05:31 AM

Well, with all the arguing back and forth, I figured I could try to post a proposal and see how both sides would agree with it.

Oh, and sorry to start another thread...

Goals:

Allowing players to adapt to game change.
Being affordable for everyone, casual and hardcore alike.
Trying to address (or reduce) some of the anti-respec fears.
Avoiding hundreds of nearly uncodable restrictions.

Basic idea:
When a character has to respec, he talks to an NPC (I'll leave the aspect lore out for now) that pops out the equivalent of the character creation screen. The players rebuilds the character as he would wants it to be (he can only use, as starting class, a class he had levels of previously however). Once the player is done, he confirms his choice and his character is transformed back to a level 1 character of the class he picked.

The NPC also gives him 'class level token' for each class levels he had. For an example, a level 16 fighter will be given 15 'fighter class tokens'. For a 14 wizard/2 rogue that picked rogue as starting class, he will receive 14 'wizard class tokens' and 1 'rogue class token'. (This could be changed into a percentage of tokens if necessary.)

The character can then use them by talking to a training to level back up. So, a level 16 fighter only wanting to respec his skill points or ability scores just has to respec the way he was all the way to level 16 by talking to the fighter trainer (each time you talk to the trainer a token is consumed). Since each token is class specific, the character is limited to respec back into the class he had. If he wants to change some of his class levels, he will have to gain those levels by collecting XP.

Favor, tomes and equipment are kept.

In order to avoid the respec mechanism to be used as a quick way to skip a few levels, the token would have a Maximum Level at which they could be used and would be destroyed if the character still has some upon reaching that level (for example, if a 16 fighter respec into 14ftr/2pal, then his two remaining fighter token will be destroyed upon reaching level 16.

Since this means we will rerun quests more often, it would be nice if the 'You have run this quest too many times' message would slowly decay over time. This would avoid running into a scenario were all the low level quests would have been ran to death in a few years (ie it's not a priority but it will have to be done at one point in time0.

Timer:
I like either of those two proposals:

Fixed one to two month timer
Smaller timer, at first, but goes up with frequency use (and slowly reduces if not used)

I'd like to mention, though, that in both cases the timer would only start when the last class level token is used or destroyed. All the time that may lapse between the two will count as an 'additional timer', punishing those who are trying to regain more levels in a new class more than others.

Cost:
I will not list any distribution of cost, here, but I'll at least explain what I think should be done. Since this is an ability some lower level characters may be interested in using, a scaling cost would make sense - like Turbine did with Dragonshard. After all, the cost of rerolling gets higher the higher level we are and DDO needs more moneysinks.

The cost should be high but not out of reach for casual gamers to be able to afford it.

Advantages:

Does not seem impossible to code.
Can easily be used to adapt game changes.
Increases the quantity of players at lower levels.*
Reduces the cheesiness by making it a pain to change class drastically.
Mimics more closely (although not perfectly) the tested models found in other MMOs.

*Since there is no restriction as to what levels one has to use his tokens, most players will retrain their new class levels at lower levels.

Disadvantages:

Does not totally prevent drastic class changes.
Reduces some of the game's grind.

Final words:
This, to me, sounds like a nice compromise between the two sides. Of course, I am biased so I am interested by the input of the those sides. However, the question I ask is not 'Should there be a respec?' but rather 'If Turbine was to implement a respec, would this be something you would oppose? If so, what would you want them to change and why?' since all the first question can lead to is a pointless debate on cost vs benefits, when none of us knows the cost.

Hopefully, we can stay civil and try to come to a proposal both sides can agree with by listening to the problems we see in this proposal and trying to fix them.

PS: Again, really sorry to start another thread but otherwise this would have been lost in the pro vs anti arguments.

**FluffyCalico** · 03-11-2009, 05:35 AM

Getting warmer

still have a few issues though

here is one
"The NPC also gives him 'class level token' for each class levels he had. For an example, a level 16 fighter will be given 15 'fighter class tokens'. For a 14 wizard/2 rogue that picked rogue as starting class, he will receive 14 'wizard class tokens' and 1 'rogue class token'. (This could be changed into a percentage of tokens if necessary.)"

So if I am a 16 wizard I can do this and then level up to level 5 and then pop my 15 tokens and be 20 without workng for 17-20?

I know this is not what you intended but we need something to prevent this.

How are you addressing tomes? Specifically INT

**Damionic** · 03-11-2009, 05:35 AM

Works for me...Signed

**Borror0** · 03-11-2009, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by FluffyCalico

Getting warmer

Good.

Originally Posted by FluffyCalico

So if I am a 16 wizard I can do this and then level up to level 5 and then pop my 15 tokens and be 20 without workng for 17-20?

I know this is not what you intended but we need something to prevent this.

I addressed this in the OP (although maybe not at the best place):
"In order to avoid the respec mechanism to be used as a quick way to skip a few levels, the token would have a Maximum Level at which they could be used and would be destroyed if the character still has some upon reaching that level (for example, if a 16 fighter respec into 14ftr/2pal, then his two remaining fighter token will be destroyed upon reaching level 16."

Originally Posted by FluffyCalico

How are you addressing tomes? Specifically INT

Well, since there are already people who can use +2 tomes at level I figured respec'ing would keep whatever Int tome and consider you ate it at lv 1.

I personally don't view this as unbalancing. No idea if I am part of a few but it would save a lot of headaches, though.

**FluffyCalico** · 03-11-2009, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by Borror0

Good.

Well, since there are already people who can use +2 tomes at level I figured respec'ing would keep whatever Int tome and consider you ate it at lv 1.

I personally don't view this as unbalancing. No idea if I am part of a few but it would save a lot of headaches, though.

Issue with this is then if you ate a int tome after level 1 you NEED to respec just to gain the points from previous levels. While I don't think super punishment is needed for respec I can't support a reward for doing it beond correcting mistakes or changes in the game.
Perhaps all toons reguardless should get back int skill points when they eat a tome.

**Borror0** · 03-11-2009, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by FluffyCalico

Perhaps all toons reguardless should get back int skill points when they eat a tome.

That would be a way.

**bandyman1** · 03-11-2009, 05:59 AM

I think it addresses most of the concerns of both sides of the debate.

Good idea Borr. And good compromise.

I agree with Fluffy that a few things may need to be ironed out, but I really don't see how anyone could seriously be opposed to this system.

**FluffyCalico** · 03-11-2009, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by bandyman1

I think it addresses most of the concerns of both sides of the debate.

Good idea Borr. And good compromise.

I agree with Fluffy that a few things may need to be ironed out, but I really don't see how anyone could seriously be opposed to this system.

Oh trust me I won't use it, but As long as the int tome issue is delt with then I can pretend this respec guy isn't there.

**sephiroth1084** · 03-11-2009, 06:22 AM

Well, one of the prominent writers of 3.5 wrote somewhere in a response on the WotC site (specific, I know) that, were he to go back, he'd make permanent changes to intelligence affect skill points retroactively.

I think that translating this to DDO would be a good idea.

As far as your respec idea goes, Borr, I think I like it, with the caveat that something would have to be done about skill points if the retroactive Int thing isn't dealt with otherwise--I don't want to see everyone hit the respec button the moment they get a +1, +2, +3, etc... Int tome. Nor do I want this to happen at lvls 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 for wizards and other Int-based characters.

Would you be able to select the number of levels you want to drop at a time? You might have said so and I missed it, it's early/late and I haven't slept yet.

This would have to be significantly more expensive than feat respec if that is to remain a functional option in the game. Sure, it'd be easier to respec a single feat taken at 3 on a lvl 16 character via Fred, but if you have to respec more than one feat, this becomes much better. Then, if any of those feats have prereqs you need to deal with as well, this becomes much much better.

Not sure what you meant about the timer and token interaction. Were you saying that the timer starts immediately or when the last token is turned in/destroyed?

The coding for tokens that are destroyed upon reaching the appropriate level seems like it would be clunky, though I'm no programmer. There has to be a more elegant solution to that. Perhaps having each token specify a class and level?

So, for example, a level 5 fighter decides that he wants some paladin levels. He respecs and gets 5 fighter tokens, each marked lvls 1-5. He trades in the lvl 1 token to become a Fighter 1, the lvl 2 for fighter at 2. Then at 3, he takes a level of paladin. Next lvl, he trades in the fighter 4 token, which checks to make sure that he is lvl 3. He is, so he is now a F 3/P1, distributed as F,F,P,F. If he takes his next level in paladin, his lvl 5 fighter token will be useless unless he decides to repsec again.

Looking at that, I can see several problems, but I'm leaving it up as something for you (and anyone else) to mull over in case there is some gem in there.

Ultimately, I think that a long timer, coupled with having to actually relevel drastically changed characters (and the locking in of the first level according to a level you have already) avoids most of the issues I would have with a full respec.

**Borror0** · 03-11-2009, 06:42 AM