Can we come to a compromise? - My respec proposal

[Cinwulf]

Not to mention you already ate one...how's that fair to have to eat a 2nd one...?

he must mean put the inherents as tomes in your inventory then respec and eat your tomes again?

[Borror0]

Or even better... put minimum levels on tomes, and just have the tomes 'activate' when leveling to that level.

I don't disagree but it seems more of an headache for.. what in the end?

[bobbryan2]

I don't disagree but it seems more of an headache for.. what in the end?

For getting people on board for a compromise?

[Hafeal]

It's called an 'inherent' bonus and that's a proof that the game knows you ate a tome.

Another proof is that tomes' bonus don't stack.

Not really, given the power of skills. It'd be a loss on diversity but it would be very minor because skills are so weak in DDO that close to no one really puts points in Int for skills. We'd gain in friendliness for new players and plausibility of a respec, so the trade off seems worthwhile to me

If they make skills more powerful, it may be a problem but even there not really for as long as enough skills become more powerful.

Thanks for the fill-in Borror0.

So, the only thing with tomes, as far as we know, is we don't know "when" they were eaten and as a result this plan "compromises" to give players who ate tomes a few extra skill points. It is a sacrifice I am willing to make to get a skill respec.

[bobbryan2]

Thanks for the fill-in Borror0.

So, the only thing with tomes, as far as we know, is we don't know "when" they were eaten and as a result this plan "compromises" to give players who ate tomes a few extra skill points. It is a sacrifice I am willing to make to get a skill respec.

Yeah... another option is popping out the highest tomes upon rerolling, and letting them eat it at lvl 1... so that it doesn't create characters that are impossible without rerolling, but give them the earliest possible bonus.

[rimble]

Yeah... another option is popping out the highest tomes upon rerolling, and letting them eat it at lvl 1... so that it doesn't create characters that are impossible without rerolling, but give them the earliest possible bonus.

Oh yeah, they most certainly should not have those bonuses at the 'creation' screen, but have them after you log in. That's an important distinction, and maybe people thought I meant it that way, but definitely not. No 64 point builds please...

[Dymond]

Oh yeah, they most certainly should not have those bonuses at the 'creation' screen, but have them after you log in. That's an important distinction, and maybe people thought I meant it that way, but definitely not. No 64 point builds please...

So just give them back at level 1? I think thats our choices. Give the bonuses back at level 1 or don't give them at all. I know Turbine tracks the tomes (Inherent bonuses) I just don't think they track when they were eaten. If they don't it would almost have to be give them at level 1, give them after the respec(respec being a 'do it now', not some now some later) or don't give them at all.

[bobbryan2]

So just give them back at level 1? I think thats our choices. Give the bonuses back at level 1 or don't give them at all. I know Turbine tracks the tomes (Inherent bonuses) I just don't think they track when they were eaten. If they don't it would almost have to be give them at level 1, give them after the respec(respec being a 'do it now', not some now some later) or don't give them at all.

Personally, I'd rather tomes have min lvls on top of that... but that's a diff issue.

[sephiroth1084]

When the last token is turned in or destroyed.

That way, it penalizes more those respecing more levels by setting a "longer timer'.

I don't think they need to be penalized further since they are already having to actually relevel to some degree.

That is the only way I found to prevent players from collecting tokens.

If that is not seen as problematic, then they could code a 'maximum level' to it a bit in way they coded a minimum level?

Another option might be for the otkens to be destroyed if the character takes another class? You could change a fighter 16 to a fighter 6/ranger 10, but when that first ranger level gets picked up, the tokens all get destroyed.

[Quanefel]

I don't see how that's fair. We aren't talking about re-rolling

Exactly. Ya'll want something better than a reroll, compromise.

[Dirac]

I like the compromise, too.

Concerning tomes, my original thought was that they should be lost, part of the payment for respec. However, if we want to keep tomes, I agree with the idea of having a min level on tomes: +1 ml8, +2 ml12, +3 ml16, +4 ml20 or some such thing. I thought not having one originally was a breathtaking oversight.

[BlackSteel]

I like it if u take away the tokens. The price of the respec should be the releveling process. The perk of it is that you keep all your junk and tomes eaten. THAT sounds fair to me. A complete respec shouldnt be able to be done willy nilly.

[dragonofsteel2]

1. Respec Race = Lose all bound items

2. Respec Classes = Stays at current level but must reaquire XP back to current XP before leveling any higher.

3. Respec Stats = Lose all consumed Tomes bound and unbound

4. Respec skills = No loss

I like this idea, plenty for the more want to do. Think should get plenty for respecing stats, this because it was your mistake. There has been nothing added to the game for reason to respec stats. The levels I can deal with the xp plenty even though the game has made changes which could hurt your idea of toon.

Hmm... removing +3 tomes from a character... one of the biggest grinds in the game... even more than shroud equipment, xp, or raid loot.

Interesting idea of fair and equal.

Hmm not really, there going to add more raids with +4tomes and there plenty out there right now can do get +3 tomes. The biggest grind to me is shroud items and titan gear. Grind boring same raid or quest over and over again. At least with +3 tomes u can get some variety. Remember the idea for respec came around because the changes made to the game, there has yet been feat added with stat require or enchantment, not here to reward those made mistakes. If did not figure out that made ability score mistakes by the time you are 16 and have raid gear is that Tribunes fault?

[FluffyCalico]

Personally, I'd rather tomes have min lvls on top of that... but that's a diff issue.

Putting a min level on tomes would make it so noone today can make a character with as many skill points as the ones that currently exist. This would not be a good change without taking away those skill points from the old ones that would now no longer be able to be obtained. We don't need another way of making old players permently stonger than new ones.

[SableShadow]

Exactly. Ya'll want something better than a reroll, compromise.

Agreed, that's the nature of compromise. I doubt I'd ever end up using a mechanic that stripped tomes, but that part would be irrelevant for someone leveling their first character and still learning the ropes.

[BigBadBarry]

Overall I think this option is on the right track.

As I've said elsewhere the addition of capstones and PrC's using class types and level ranges (eg 18) means characters built before this became common knowledge should be able to - to a certain extent de-level and retrain to become pure (or pure-er)

This is important for example if they decide to re-balance how monk AC works. The Ranger 15 Monk 1 splash builds will be able to say "Yes my build is kinda-nerfed but I can drop the Monk level and Go pure from here and get the capstone so it kind of evens outs"


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Can I get a clarification Borro0 though on the concept of re-leveling?

Que (/gritted teeth on) might have a point that being able to "relevel" lower levels might make things a little "easy". (/gritted teeth off)

Example (?):

I have an old Rogue 11/Fighter 5 and with the new news of a rogue PrC to lvl 18 I want to drop 3 lvls of fighter for rogue levels.

Can I go to the the "re-spec" guy and be back to level 1 then walk over and do N/H/E Ringleader/Durks (etc) and become a lvl 3 rogue. Then go back to the trainer and take my 3 lvls of figher and my 10 lvls of rogue using my tokens - thus walking away a lvl 14 rogue/ 2 fighter

OR

DO i use all the tokens at once and walk away a lvl 12 rogue / 2 fighter and I need to get a full lvl to get to 15 ?


One's about a 20k xp cost to get back to 16 - the other is what ... 290K xp.

[Quanefel]

Agreed, that's the nature of compromise. I doubt I'd ever end up using a mechanic that stripped tomes, but that part would be irrelevant for someone leveling their first character and still learning the ropes.

My way of thinking is that the Int tome would be stripped clean, the other tomes are not so much of a worry as that one. By the time this is even considered we will have 20 level cap already and unbound +3 and maybe +4/+5 tomes. Not much further you can go past +5 tomes that I am aware of. So, in knowing that it makes it clear by the time anything likes this is done, then the Int tome being wiped is not an issue anymore. If planned out you can still grab a fresh replacement Int tome to reuse in the respec phase just as anyone can do at 1st level now with a reroll. The dev's will not have to worry about the Int tome messing up the skills in any imbalancing way and the people respeccing will get what they want. Seems fine to me.


*edit* And it would fit well in a roleplaying/storytelling aspect as well. You are wiping the slate clean of a part of your character and because of it some Int point(tome bonus) is removed if there. It can be replaced with another tome within the process though.

[SableShadow]

My way of thinking is that the Int tome would be stripped clean, the other tomes are not so much of a worry as that one. By the time this is even considered we will have 20 level cap already and unbound +3 and maybe +4/+5 tomes. Not much further you can go past +5 tomes that I am aware of. So, in knowing that it makes it clear by the time anything likes this is done, then the Int tome being wiped is not an issue anymore. If planned out you can still grab a fresh replacement Int tome to reuse in the respec phase just as anyone can do at 1st level now with a reroll. The dev's will not have to worry about the Int tome messing up the skills in any imbalancing way and the people respeccing will get what they want. Seems fine to me.

I follow your logic; I personally think just popping tomes off the character and popping them into inventory would work...then just eat them all at level 1 again. A "nuke all tomes" respec wouldn't hit all the goals folks have been talking about, but it would have a place in the game; vets wouldn't likely use it that much, but it would take some of the sting out of a newbies mistakes.

Newbies aren't going to be seeing much in the way of tomes until they hit their teens (imho), but they'll have some bound gear which may not be that easy for them to replace, so nuking tomes but keeping gear is, in my mind, a better move than nuking gear and keeping tomes.

It really just depends on what social dynamic Turbine (the DM) wants to achieve; for instance, I still think NPE and Hirelings were a good move on their part, though I wasn't their target audience.

[BigBadBarry]

Int tome and skill points Compromise?

Rather than lose the +2/+3 tome completely (thus affecting other things), what about for the purposes of the respec/token system in question that the inherant bonus is not used at all throughout the whole process - just the base int.

Yes - you would end up with less skill points that you started with - especially if you took a +2 tome at level 1 (16 less skill points in this case) BUT this would be one of the known "costs" of respecing and would compromise with the complexity/stumbling block of implementation.

Don't want to "lose" your 16 skill points - then don't respec.

[Uska]

I like the compromise, too.

Concerning tomes, my original thought was that they should be lost, part of the payment for respec. However, if we want to keep tomes, I agree with the idea of having a min level on tomes: +1 ml8, +2 ml12, +3 ml16, +4 ml20 or some such thing. I thought not having one originally was a breathtaking oversight.

I like min levels but I think your's are to high maybe about half what you have.