Can we come to a compromise? - My respec proposal

[uhgungawa]

Read through a couple of pages. No matter what the out come is, some people are gonna be T'd off.

So here's my thought. Let people have one respec per server for every 12 months they have an active account. This would reward players for staying, and those that left for awhile could still add all thier active time.

The game has been out for three years, so they could give 3 respecs to those with enough time in.

Once again some might like it, while others hate it. But all in all, it seems like a good and not game breaking compermise

[FluffyCalico]

I like min levels but I think your's are to high maybe about half what you have.

the general way it normally would work is don't hope for more than your level /4

level 4 +1
level 8 +2
level 12 +3
level 16 +4
level 20 +5

[Quanefel]

I follow your logic; I personally think just popping tomes off the character and popping them into inventory would work...then just eat them all at level 1 again. A "nuke all tomes" respec wouldn't hit all the goals folks have been talking about, but it would have a place in the game; vets wouldn't likely use it that much, but it would take some of the sting out of a newbies mistakes.

Newbies aren't going to be seeing much in the way of tomes until they hit their teens (imho), but they'll have some bound gear which may not be that easy for them to replace, so nuking tomes but keeping gear is, in my mind, a better move than nuking gear and keeping tomes.

It really just depends on what social dynamic Turbine (the DM) wants to achieve; for instance, I still think NPE and Hirelings were a good move on their part, though I wasn't their target audience.

I am not sure that would be such a good thing. Consuming a tome should be final, no way to reform it into a new tome. If it is eaten, it is eaten. A nuke all tomes is not really needed since the contention is really only the Int tome, take that off the table and they can keep the other tomes for this. As more of a compromise to Turbine to not have to mess with the nightmare of recoding the skill/Int tome issue for this. Although I hope later we can get it worked out for a separate skill respec, that I would not mind myself even if I will never use it.

Yeah, I know the newbies won't really have much in the way of tomes. Now gear, yes they "might" have some that they would want to keep. I do not have a real issue with gear being kept. I do have an issue with it being used a point of reason for a full respec. If they stop talking about gear no one would care, because we don't really care much until its brought up. It needs to be brought back to what the main reasons are, more about fixing class levels, stats, and things along those lines. I think so at least.

[SableShadow]

I am not sure that would be such a good thing. Consuming a tome should be final, no way to reform it into a new tome. If it is eaten, it is eaten. A nuke all tomes is not really needed since the contention is really only the Int tome, take that off the table and they can keep the other tomes for this. As more of a compromise to Turbine to not have to mess with the nightmare of recoding the skill/Int tome issue for this. Although I hope later we can get it worked out for a separate skill respec, that I would not mind myself even if I will never use it.

Well...sure, I was thinking "ease of coding mechanic"; since the tomes are all right there on your char sheet, it'd be fairly straightforward to strip the + and recreate the object...you could just as easily put the "+" back on later, sure, or in this case not add it again at all.

Yeah, I know the newbies won't really have much in the way of tomes. Now gear, yes they "might" have some that they would want to keep. I do not have a real issue with gear being kept.

When I capped 10, I was living off quest-chain end-rewards, hence "keep gear"...that was just my experience, though. If raid gear/GS is a heartburn, then give that stuff a different flag, so we're not lumping all "bound gear" into the same category.

I do have an issue with it being used a point of reason for a full respec. If they stop talking about gear no one would care, because we don't really care much until its brought up. It needs to be brought back to what the main reasons are, more about fixing class levels, stats, and things along those lines. I think so at least.

It's a gear game, and takes a lot more to gear up than it does to level, so raid gear and GS are going to be part of the conversation. I'd like it to be a little less of a gear game by toning the gear down in various ways, but I don't really see any way to do that at this point.

Edit: Heck, there's a place for a zero tome, zero raid gear respec in this game. It doesn't hit all the outlined goals, and would be largely pointless for vets, but it would still serve as training wheels for newbies. DDO is a weird kinda game, in that it looks like an archtype game (you have icons, and general expectations that go with those icons), but it isn't. Your healer or caster may be specialized in melee; your barbarian may have weapon finesse, etc etc. It's easier to break your first couple characters than it is in a lotta different games. The Paths, while I disagree on the specifics of many of them, seem to be an attempt to put an archtype face on the game and reduce the learning curve. A "keep favor and xp, but no raid gear" type of respec could extend that logic a little more....though it doesn't answer the whole "dynamic game/static characters" portion of the proposal.

[Monkey_Archer]

Well, I think you're getting somewhere with the respec idea.....
This method seems to address many concerns, and is well thought through.

-I like the token idea
-I like that is seems feasible from a coding perspective
-I like that it would be usable and useful from a casual gamer's perspecitve

- I dont like the idea of complete class changes (even if you do have to relevel)
- I dont like the idea of low level characters running around with bound gear (specifically tomes) not normally attainable

An idea to address complete class changes:
-Scrap the re-leveling process. Have the character remain at whatever their current xp is (probably capped)
-Instead of re-leveling to change a class, have it done though the token system.
-Start with a base cost to respec. Lets say 10k plat, which increases for higher level characters
-The base cost will grant you class specific tokens equal to your current class (a 14wiz/2rogue would recive 2 rogue tokens and 14 wizard tokens that they can use in any order) This would allow you to basically reroll to change skills, alignment, and level order.
-To change classes you would add an additional cost on top of the base cost. For example: 1 Ebberron dragon shard per level (new shards added to game like siberus shards for feats) ... up to a maximum of maybe 3? levels per respec.
-For the 14wiz/2rogue to change to a pure wizard it would cost 2 Ebberron dragon shards and they would recive 14 wizard tokens and 2 ANY CLASS tokens, which they could use in any order

[ahpook]

Generally I like it. The leveling tokens are a nice implementation. I would prefer to see a couple of tweaks to reduce the chance of abuse.

Timer: Instead of 2 months, have a respec lock out flag to be set when you complete your respec. No further respecs are allowed while the flag is set. Whenever a new mod is released all respec lock outs are cleared. In other words one respec per module and you cannot accumulate more than one respec at a time.

Level tokens expiration: I would rather not see a 20th level fighter change to a 14 fighter/6 ranger by taking levels 2-7 as ranger and jumping back to 20 using the tokens. I would suggest either that any gain of XP wipes all tokens or you cannot gain XP until you have used your tokens or discarded them. In other words, you need to use all your token at once for any tokens you wish to use. Any new class levels have to be taken at the high end of your levels.

[sephiroth1084]

/not signed

What comprimise?

This is still all about the loot. Iit is not about some build mistake it is about loot. If your toon had zero loot you would re-roll them in a second if you found a flaw you didnt like. But because you have X number of pieces of raid loot you wont do it. I am in favor of this if ALL loot is destroyed at respec. The problem is nobody else would be in favor of this becasue this is still all about the loot. I am not in favor of this if you received zero respec tokens and had to grind XP back to level cap 100%. XP is not a limiting factor. Plat is not a limiting factor. If this is for the casual gamer who plays 5 hours a week, they don't have the stacks of uber loot anyway, so a respec that eliminates loot won't hurt them.

Someone stated in a previous thread that they are in favor of a respec becasue they only have one toon they play. They have finally gotten every piece of loot they want but they made some poor decisions while creating the toon so it is not perfect. They wish that that toon was perfect and want to have a re-roll to do so. What does that person do after that toon is perfect? What keeps them playing? There is no point to running that perfect toon any longer. Do you roll another toon? Isn't that the same as re-rolling? We need motavation to keep playing and striving to make the perfect toon is it. Eliminating that journey towards the perfect toon eliminates the need to play at all.

I will not agree to a respec that allows a faster method to the perfect toon with all the perfect gear to go with it. Is there a game out there that takes less time to get to cap?

Not just loot. I recently leveled a new paladin to 10, and decided that I really do miss intimidate. With a proper respec, I could have thrown in a level of fighter or rogue early and then gotten my character back. It took about 2 weeks to get to 10 (leveling with a friend brand new to the game, so taking it kinda slow). Now, I have to re-level a new character, but without my friends who I was running with because they are all level 10.

How about a newish player who gets a character up to around level 10-14, and realizes that they just don't have enough DPS, saves, HP, AC, or skill for whatever they were trying to do. What if that person has only this one character and is running with friends? They can reroll, but then they either force their friends to roll new characters, or have to level without them.

Finally, if Turbine changes something, we should be able to respond.

[sephiroth1084]

At the very least, we should get a respec token that enables something similar to Borr's idea every time Turbine introduces new abilities, enhancements or uses for skills. For feat changes/additions, we should receive a free feat respec token (or several) that last for a reasonable period of time before disappearing (maybe 1 month).

[Cold_Stele]

give the guys who worked it out something to gloat over.

Don't you play Barbarians?

I'd love to know what is you 'worked out' that gives you something to gloat over - lots of Str and Con and then you got to choose one feat after the five compulsary ones right?

[Arianrhod]

Not just loot. I recently leveled a new paladin to 10, and decided that I really do miss intimidate. With a proper respec, I could have thrown in a level of fighter or rogue early and then gotten my character back. It took about 2 weeks to get to 10 (leveling with a friend brand new to the game, so taking it kinda slow). Now, I have to re-level a new character, but without my friends who I was running with because they are all level 10.

How about a newish player who gets a character up to around level 10-14, and realizes that they just don't have enough DPS, saves, HP, AC, or skill for whatever they were trying to do. What if that person has only this one character and is running with friends? They can reroll, but then they either force their friends to roll new characters, or have to level without them.

Finally, if Turbine changes something, we should be able to respond.

But the guy's point was that if the respec didn't include loot, people wouldn't go for it. How many people would suppoort a full respec system that allowed people to change any aspect of the character they wanted, without losing any exp or favor, but sacrificing all bound loot? Im guessing, maybe 2 of us. That's not many

[FluffyCalico]

But the guy's point was that if the respec didn't include loot, people wouldn't go for it. How many people would suppoort a full respec system that allowed people to change any aspect of the character they wanted, without losing any exp or favor, but sacrificing all bound loot? Im guessing, maybe 2 of us. That's not many

Pretty much any causal with only quest rewards as bound loot.

[Cinwulf]

Int tome and skill points Compromise?

Rather than lose the +2/+3 tome completely (thus affecting other things), what about for the purposes of the respec/token system in question that the inherant bonus is not used at all throughout the whole process - just the base int.

Yes - you would end up with less skill points that you started with - especially if you took a +2 tome at level 1 (16 less skill points in this case) BUT this would be one of the known "costs" of respecing and would compromise with the complexity/stumbling block of implementation.

Don't want to "lose" your 16 skill points - then don't respec.

The problem might be that a character ate a +3 int tome to add to his 10 intel to qualify for a feat like combat expertise. In this case I'd prefer a min lvl req instead of not counting tome boost to intel at all. I can understand not letting them have the boost at lvl 1 for the handful of extra skill points if that bothers people.

ps: I do appreciate the more civil discussion lately Not singling anyone out, but this thread as a whole.

[Aganazer]

How about a newish player who gets a character up to around level 10-14, and realizes that they just don't have enough DPS, saves, HP, AC, or skill for whatever they were trying to do. What if that person has only this one character and is running with friends? They can reroll, but then they either force their friends to roll new characters, or have to level without them.

That is almost exactly the situation I am in. Although I made sure that my friends and I all had a solid plan for their character, I can tell you exactly what I would do if I had made a serious mistake on my character. I would lose interest in the game. Other games would start to sound more and more enticing.

That is something that I think a lot of the vets don't understand. They have been playing DDO for so long that they don't even consider the competition anymore. There are a lot of good games out there. It doesn't matter if DDO is fun or not, but what matters is if its more fun and rewarding than the other MMOG's. Character experimentation is one of DDO's strongest features. By making it more accessible it makes the whole game more appealing to potential subscribers that may be on the fence.

[Zenako]

But the guy's point was that if the respec didn't include loot, people wouldn't go for it. How many people would suppoort a full respec system that allowed people to change any aspect of the character they wanted, without losing any exp or favor, but sacrificing all bound loot? Im guessing, maybe 2 of us. That's not many

But finding out how many would be up for something like that, would clarify the arguement a bit as well. Is it the core character that they need to fix (making loot not the issue) or is it a misfit of loot that they want to address. I know this is simplistic, but I recall that hardly anyone wanted to do a respect if they really had to start over on the tome/bound loot front. Saying in general, what would be the point.

[Zenako]

That is almost exactly the situation I am in. Although I made sure that my friends and I all had a solid plan for their character, I can tell you exactly what I would do if I had made a serious mistake on my character. I would lose interest in the game. Other games would start to sound more and more enticing.

That is something that I think a lot of the vets don't understand. They have been playing DDO for so long that they don't even consider the competition anymore. There are a lot of good games out there. It doesn't matter if DDO is fun or not, but what matters is if its more fun and rewarding than the other MMOG's. Character experimentation is one of DDO's strongest features. By making it more accessible it makes the whole game more appealing to potential subscribers that may be on the fence.

So since character experimentation is a strong point, why don't groups like that create multiple characters to mix and match with. I know I did that when starting out. My friends and I all created 2 or 3 (or more) characters to run with. We leveled them all up around the same rate it seemed. This avoided tying anyone down to a single type of character that they might not enjoy as much once they play the game a bit. That seemed like the obvious solution to us back then (when you only had half the number of slots you have now), so it should still be an obvious solution.

[sephiroth1084]

But the guy's point was that if the respec didn't include loot, people wouldn't go for it. How many people would suppoort a full respec system that allowed people to change any aspect of the character they wanted, without losing any exp or favor, but sacrificing all bound loot? Im guessing, maybe 2 of us. That's not many

Aside from the +2 Con tome that my pure paladin had read, there was no bound loot on him worth mentioning. And, though that was the only +2 Con tome I had, and one of only about 5 +2 tomes I've ever gotten, I still rerolled him. It isn't all about the loot.

Sure, that's a big part of it, and with good reason. My point, was that there are legit non-loot related reasons for supporting such a respec system, as you can see below.

That is almost exactly the situation I am in. Although I made sure that my friends and I all had a solid plan for their character, I can tell you exactly what I would do if I had made a serious mistake on my character. I would lose interest in the game. Other games would start to sound more and more enticing.

That is something that I think a lot of the vets don't understand. They have been playing DDO for so long that they don't even consider the competition anymore. There are a lot of good games out there. It doesn't matter if DDO is fun or not, but what matters is if its more fun and rewarding than the other MMOG's. Character experimentation is one of DDO's strongest features. By making it more accessible it makes the whole game more appealing to potential subscribers that may be on the fence.

[feynman]

But finding out how many would be up for something like that, would clarify the arguement a bit as well. Is it the core character that they need to fix (making loot not the issue) or is it a misfit of loot that they want to address. I know this is simplistic, but I recall that hardly anyone wanted to do a respect if they really had to start over on the tome/bound loot front. Saying in general, what would be the point.

It's different things for different people; I might want to fix my 28-point cleric that I put too much into STR and CHA (yea, yea, it was my first character, OK?) without losing 3 +3 tomes, 2 greensteel items, and about 5 raid loot items, but someone else might want to change their alignment since DT armor came out so they can switch to chaosgardes.

The only way to address it all is to make it possible to change everything, repeatedly. I oppose any limits on it, but if you insist, I would be less upset at a time limit (1 week/character?) than at any other form of cost.

Oh, and the people who want some sort of mark on those who respec, do you really think that we believe that you aren't looking for a way to discriminate against them, e.g. not letting them into groups, guilds, etc?

[Aganazer]

So since character experimentation is a strong point, why don't groups like that create multiple characters to mix and match with. I know I did that when starting out. My friends and I all created 2 or 3 (or more) characters to run with. We leveled them all up around the same rate it seemed. This avoided tying anyone down to a single type of character that they might not enjoy as much once they play the game a bit. That seemed like the obvious solution to us back then (when you only had half the number of slots you have now), so it should still be an obvious solution.

After unlocking Drow none of us want to repeat that content again. We have already done 1-7 content 5 or 6 times. Why repeat content when there are so many other games out there with content that we have never seen?

[Zenako]

After unlocking Drow none of us want to repeat that content again. We have already done 1-7 content 5 or 6 times. Why repeat content when there are so many other games out there with content that we have never seen?

Curious on this point, did you really exhaust the level 1 to 7 content 5 or 6 times, or just run those same 10 quests everyone power levels on 5 or 6 times. There are a ton of interesting quests that are perhaps not on the main highway of power leveling in those level ranges that way too many players ignore. They make perfect sessions for a small group like that. I find I usually level up beyond them way before I run out things to run.

[Aganazer]

Curious on this point, did you really exhaust the level 1 to 7 content 5 or 6 times, or just run those same 10 quests everyone power levels on 5 or 6 times. There are a ton of interesting quests that are perhaps not on the main highway of power leveling in those level ranges that way too many players ignore. They make perfect sessions for a small group like that. I find I usually level up beyond them way before I run out things to run.

Yes, totally exhausted 1-5, completed most of 6, and a few 7 on the way to unlocking Drow. First my wife and I did them all three times for favor. Then another friend wanted to do it even though he scoffed at joining us the first time, then another friend joined the bandwagon who subsequently quit the game after repeating content even a few times. We did mix in a few different characters for variety, but it was generally easier to use our first set of characters since we already had it unlocked for elite.

Since then we have been checking off EVERY quest at every level before taking on the next level's quests. Its worked out well and we haven't had to repeat any content since unlocking our Drow. No power leveling. Completing ALL optionals whenever we are able. Taking our time. Its been great, but I am concerned about having enough content without repeating quests starting at 11 or 12.

I don't mind repeating content 2-3 times if its a quest that is well done, but after 5 or 6 repeats I've lost all motivation to return. We've tried making a few alts when we are missing a key party member, but its never as fun since we're so tired of the same content after the Drow grind. As much as I've enjoyed DDO we'd rather play another game. Even multiplayer NWN2 can scratch that D&D itch and its got gobs of content.

If one of the four static party members became dissatisfied with their character and quit, we would probably all quit the game. Its sad, but true. Of course its not likely to happen because we all did our homework and built our characters very well.