Shield Crafting, In development? Or do I go TWF?

[spyderwolf]

QUOTE Borror0: Shields are not underpowered. S&B is.





you cant say shields aren't underpowered and then say s/b is underpowered. since shields are what is making it underpowered compared to the twf or thf . you come off sounding like an idiot when ya do.

[Aesop]

QUOTE Borror0: Shields are not underpowered. S&B is.





you cant say shields aren't underpowered and then say s/b is underpowered. since shields are what is making it underpowered compared to the twf or thf . you come off sounding like an idiot when ya do.

Actually he's right in this regard. SHields are as powerful as they should be... its the related factors that make the style weak

DPS: S&B have less of it than they should relative to the game
AC: you can get more of it with TWF even strength based TWF are breaching the S&B high watermark
Mitigation: Damage mitigation is low relative to the other styles. Things like evasion make the classic S&B character relatively squishie seeming.

So all in all its not the Shields its the mechanics surrounding the Shields.

I've made my suggestions to improve all three of these aspects and posted most of it in this thread... I believe they would work to help balance the game significantly... though they are a big step.


Aesop

[spyderwolf]

Actually he's right in this regard. SHields are as powerful as they should be... its the related factors that make the style weak

DPS: S&B have less of it than they should relative to the game
AC: you can get more of it with TWF even strength based TWF are breaching the S&B high watermark
Mitigation: Damage mitigation is low relative to the other styles. Things like evasion make the classic S&B character relatively squishie seeming.

So all in all its not the Shields its the mechanics surrounding the Shields.

I've made my suggestions to improve all three of these aspects and posted most of it in this thread... I believe they would work to help balance the game significantly... though they are a big step.


Aesop

s/b have less dps directly because they have a shield equipped that hasnt really been improved since the game started, whereas twf and thf have seen their gear options significantly increases with GS weapons. if you had GS shields with very nice effects like corrosive salt guards,disintigration guard , etc,etc. do you really think as many people would look at their dps are severely weaker. i dont really mind the ac aspect since as long as you can attain the ac that is needed it doenst matter if others can too. and since you can get to 69 non-dispellable ac *** s/b in fp i dont see ac as an issue personally. damage mitigation is another topic entirely since you can be s/b and have evasion. i wont argue evasion is better than no evasion. i just find it odd that someone is agaisnt anything that increases a shields viablity just because they think it wont make a big enough difference in their minds.

[Borror0]

It does work that way. [...] we wait for the info and make decisions based on that.

Sorry Xyfiel, but it doesn't work that way.

Your analogy isn't correct. A more appropriate comparison would be: barbarians are overpowered. Should we complain about it and give suggestions even though they said they would try to address that issue in the following module that is a few months away. The following module will also include a cap increase.

Wouldn't it be better to wait to find out what the multiclass value is in mod9 before asking for changes?

Not at all.

As I have said before, if they make level 19 and 20 powerful enough to make it more attractive to not splash a level of monk on a AC spec'd character, we got a much greater problem than that. Do you know any AC character that would say no to 6 AC, two bonus feats and Evasion? Do you realize the power level 20 enhancements would have to be for that?

Xyfiel, your argument is an insult at Turbine. You expect them to:

1. Make a humongous mistake.
2. Not being able to analyze my request with the data that they have.

However, all of that is irrelevant. The bonus is so huge that it shouln't be even debated.

The point was that armor/shield didn't increase after level 8 but anyone else could increase with a regular available item that had nothing to do with icy, twf, monk splash, high dex, tempest, etc. Therefore the problem lies with lack of armor/shield ac increase after level 8.

Take your pick:

• Balancing with gear is a bad idea.
• The cap is so freaking huge it would require overpowered stuff.
• Itemflation is bad.
• The healthiest (read: less worse) way to do it would require a randomly generated loot. This means it would be a lot of work, but also, it would render anything currently exists pretty darn weak unless you intend to improve the raid loot as well. All in all, it isn't a bad idea to redesign the randomly generated loot system, however the modifications would make the game feel much less D&D-like.

You have yet to respond about divine grace. If they make wis bonus to ac monk level dependant is it ok to make divine grace paladin level dependant?

Simply because boosting saves isn't nearly as powerful as boosting AC.

Comparing them is like saying a Ferrari and a Lada are the sane. Yes, they are cars but...

[Borror0]

in the 3.5 Core books, not at all.

s/b have less dps directly because they have a shield equipped

Dealing less damage because you are wearing a shield doesn't make shields underpowered. It makes wearing a shield underpowered.

if you had GS shields with very nice effects like corrosive salt guards,disintigration guard , etc,etc. do you really think as many people would look at their dps are severely weaker.

Balancing through gear is a bad idea.

i dont really mind the ac aspect since as long as you can attain the ac that is needed it doenst matter if others can too.

...it matters because you are getting hit on lower than a 20.

i just find it odd that someone is agaisnt anything that increases a shields viablity just because they think it wont make a big enough difference in their minds.

Well, that is not solely the reason.

The logic used to get there is the following:

1. Decision to not add another overpowered piece of gear to the game.
2. Analysis of the changes needed to restore balance.
3. Conclusion that, if solely fixed by gear, it would require overpowered pieces of gear.
4. Idea rejected.

That better shields could be added when the gap is much smaller. Not now.

[sephiroth1084]

Honestly, the gap between S&B and TWF is too multi-faceted to claim that introducing gear (shield GS crafting) to solve a portion of this issue is a bad idea. PART of the problem is that GS weapons are available to be dual-wielded by TWFs. Part of it is a matter of feats available for one style but not the other. Part of the issue is the way in which certain bonuses function with TWF (damage independent of a weapon becomes multiplied across the greater number of attacks in a TWF chain). And part of the issue is in how AC is generated for one group vs. the other--leaving the cap to shields and armor as normal bonus (+8 for FP, +2 for HSS and +4 for TS) + enhancement bonus (max of +5) while making stat-bumping items, enhancements and tomes relatively common, allows for tremendous imbalance in this regard that will ONLY widen as +4 and +5 tomes, better stat boosting enhancements, and ability boosting spells or items that stack with existing ones come into the game...and the bonus granted by shields and armor remains static from level 8 on.

Gear is a HUGE factor in this issue. At level 8 I can get a +5 mithral tower shield and a set of +5 mithral fp. At level 16 all that has changed is how much Dex I can get out of these, maybe, netting at most about a +4 increase in AC over 8 levels. Looking at TWF, my Dex and Wis both go up by 1 at level 9 with +4 stat items, but lets begin at 9 then for these guys. From level 8/9 to 16, you're looking at +2 to 1 or 2 stats (+1 or +2 AC) from standard items, +2 or +3 to one or two stats from tomes (+2 to +4 AC), inherent bonuses from shroud items (rarely used, but available to someone who wants AC badly) for another +1 to +2 AC, Icy Raiment (+4 AC), an insight shroud weapon, which while not contributing to the AC gap, does contribute to the DPS gap, another +2 in relevant ability score from class/race enhancements (+1 AC), 2 level-based stat bumps (+1 or +2 AC), AND availability of better armored bracers (up to +3 AC from what was available at level 8/9). So, while the S&B guy who somehow gets to a 24 Dex and has enough armor/shield masteries to get the full bonus goes up by less than 5 AC in 8 levels, the TWF (or Dex-based character) can go up by as much as +18 or so.

How is that NOT a gear issue? And we haven't looked at class abilities, feats, or any weapon-specific enhancements. Yes, part of the issue rests in the lack of shield specific abilities, but a large bit of it has to do with gear, clearly.

If shield crafting were available, it would, at the very least, allow S&B characters the chance to get the +4 Insight off of their weapon, allowing for slightly better DPS. There are currently many many more items in the game that benefit the Dex-based AC characters than there are for the shield users, and many are easier to obtain. Some really GOOD and useful and competitive shields and heavy (mithral heavy) armors need to be introduced--ones with more than a +1 difference from a standard item of its type.

Another option would be to change the way item levels function on armor and especially shields: it's all well and good for shields to be popping up with more abilities now, but who, at level 16, needs a +1 tower shield with Superior Devotion III on it? The problem with this system, is that you have to choose between a shield that offers a useful secondary or tertiary effect and one that bolsters you AC. I know that I vendor any shield I get in random loot with an ability on it, because, even without looking at the ability, I know that it will drop my AC.

[spyderwolf]

borror0,you havent really stated why balancing the game through gear is bad other than your own personal opinions,yet you dismiss or just dont care about others personaly opinions on the same subject....no matter what is put in there will always be grinding invovles if for nothing else than the time between mods forces you to run the content over and over again, so jsut because you think them adding new gs shields would force people to grind (which you have the option of jsut not doing if you dont want )isnt a valid reason why it would be bad. id like to see a good reason why adding gear in that people actually want to see added would be bad for the game.

[Xyfiel]

My analogy is correct. I am sorry you can't comprehend that. In fact we can use a current one.
Fighters/Paladins have prc's coming - fact
Tempest is considered overpowered in it's current state -fact
We don't know how powerful the new prc's are - fact(have some info so far)
No need to complain about tempest anymore until we see how the new prc's stack up against it. To say something is overpowered in comparison to knowledge we don't have is prejudice.

You keep twisting things to your perspective without stating all the givens.
It has been stated pure classes get a level 20 enhancement - fact
it has been stated new raid loot will stack with pure class enhancements - fact
you get evasion, but have to wear no armor -fact
you get more ac, but have to have more points in wisdom, meaning tomes, wearing wis item, higher starting wis.
you get more ac but have to not wear armor/shield and lose any abilities that can only be found on some armor/shields
you have to be lawful
you lose pure class enhancement
you lose stacking raid bonus with pure class enhancement

Stop making it sound like "poof" you got 6 more AC. There are many things that you must conform to to acquire it, and many things you lose out on for taking it.

Dont say I insulted Turbine. I never did. That is taking the conversation pretty low.
But to be fair, we can talk for a few days about their huge mistakes.

Saves isn't similiar to AC? I guess damage mitigation has a different definition in your dictionary. You are saying AC is more important then saves? That is why no one wants evasion right? Nobody in their right mind would splash just for a save based ability. No one would ever splash 2 paladin for a bonus to saves. No one would ever want Kardins eye, or boots of the innocent, or +5 cloak, or +5 on their dt armor, because we don't need good saves.


Let me reiterate some points:
Tempest is a prc that should be held in balance against other prcs.
Icy is an item that should be held in balance against other items.
Wisdom bonus to AC is a class ability that should be held in balance to other class abilities.

Stick to the imbalance, the lack of ability to increase shields/armor after level 8 and leave everything else out of it.(except Icy)

[Borror0]

borror0,you havent really stated why balancing the game through gear is bad other than your own personal opinions

Balancing through gear is a bad idea because it assumes you have it.

Turbine has always and will always take in account the gear we possess. If you don't have it, you are left out. A few times in this thread, I linked to a post where I showed how huge the gap between grind and non-grind would get if we were to see a +4 AC bonus that S&B characters could get.

Maybe you don't realize it, but this is extremely bad for the game.

A huge selling point of nearly any MMO out there is the social interaction. Strengthening that interaction between players is a good thing and anything discouraging the interaction between players should be addressed as soon as possible. So, while I am OK with a certain amount of grinding and rewarding players that plays more, too much of grinding or a too great reward for grinding are bad things. It comes to a point where the games becomes highly newbie unfriendly and the more casual gamers are shun.

Grouping is so important in any MMO, but that is even truer in DDO as it is a very group-focused game. There are sufficiently enough reasons that you may dislike playing with someone else, no reason to add another one. You could love to play with someone. Cool attitude, awesome sense of humor, good player, strong chemistry between the two of you, etc. However, he or she does not possess the required bound loot for this. We can make a speech about good player > bad players, but there is a point where that becomes untrue for how big the gap is. A S&B character that can't make his AC matter is one.

...and that is not all. Even if that players gets a free pass because you love to play with him or her, he or she might not have fun. Not contributing to a group is boring to a lot of players. They are there to play. To face challenges. Feeling that you are a burden, a liability... is not any fun. If you don't believe me, go back to the paladin threads between Module 6 and 7. You will find a lot of witness of that desire to contribute with their lousy character or the frustration that it is so much harder to complete a quest with their paladin. Same could be said about bad gear.

Going back to what I said at the beginning, balancing through gear is bad because it assumes you got the gear. From a customization point of view, that is bad. Ironically, encouraging customization is the reason to nerf. By that I mean that balancing through gear is moves some of the customization issue from between playstyle to within the character's choice. (Tangent: The same can be said abut balancing through feats, by the way.) So, while there are more valid playstyles, they are more cookie-cutter than they were previously.

Balancing through a piece of gear means that you got to have that very piece into that very slot, otherwise you are screwed. Nothing you can do about it.

As we know, Turbine is going to balance according to the gear we have. No matter what gear they add, we aren't getting any stronger. Whether our AC is 420 or 42, what matters is how often we are going to get it. Not how high the number is. So, I ask you, why choose the option that has so many consequences?

[spyderwolf]

because if gs sheilds were added it would most likely be in the shroud which is run by everyone and their grandma thus promoting social interactions since the shroud is a 12 man raid. and you gotta be either a) a complete a$$hole or b) 5 years old to shunned from the shroud since so many lfms for it are up each day. so how is that so terrible for grouping purposes? and dont take this as an attack on you. im just up later than normal so have some free time to debate stuff that in the end we have no control over if they do it or not. so really not much point in debating. but it is fun to debate so we will do it for no other reason than to do it.

[Borror0]

No need to complain about tempest anymore until we see how the new prc's stack up against it. To say something is overpowered in comparison to knowledge we don't have is prejudice.

That is true to a certain extend, but not totally.

While the balance between each PrE is one thing to consider, there are bonuses that should not be permitted, ever. A lot of players agree that Critical Rage II is a huge mistake from Turbine. Eladrin even recognized it himself a while ago and just restated it in his OP of Kensai by saying critical threat range increases are something that will be rarely given and also something they will be extremely cautious about.

Why is that? Is it because of the DPS increase?! Not really, ranger was the DPS class of the last two modules. So, why were we still seeing complaints about it. That is because Critical Rage II is overpowered in itself. It's because it participates to a problem that is already there and make it worse. Same can be said about Tempest I.

By the way, I personally think that Tempest I should become a Shield bonus to AC and that Tempest II and III should improve that bonus.

You keep twisting things to your perspective without stating all the givens.
It has been stated pure classes get a level 20 enhancement - fact
it has been stated new raid loot will stack with pure class enhancements - fact
you get evasion, but have to wear no armor -fact
you get more ac, but have to have more points in wisdom, meaning tomes, wearing wis item, higher starting wis.
you get more ac but have to not wear armor/shield and lose any abilities that can only be found on some armor/shields
you have to be lawful

That sounds like a fine game. Can I do it too?

• It has been stated that there are level 20 enhancements. However, common sense supposes that Turbine has kept them within decent power levels. Otherwise, it would discourage multiclassing and that would be a far greater problem than pure classes being unappealing.
• Raid loot combining with level 20 enhancements has been poorly received because it sounds like a very stupid idea on many levels.
• While Evasion requires you to wear light or no armor, that is not really a problem since you are probably dual wielding (although THF could work too) and wearing Icy Raiment.
• Putting more Wisdom isn't really that high of a cost. Wearing a Wisdom item is easy now. Welcome to the Green Steel equipment days.
• Loosing what is found on Armor and Shield is barely a cost that matters and if they were, it would be overpowered.
• Being Lawful is barely a penalty.
• You have higher AC than S&B characters can achieve, DPS twice better than their and you are better at Vorpal or stat damage.

Stop making it sound like "poof" you got 6 more AC.

Comparing the cost vs reward in each post I do is cumbersome and time consuming. I am assuming that anyone reading that is clever enough to know that both are and that they know I simply consider the cost to be way too small. While it is not "Poof, 6 more AC!", it is not that far.

Dont say I insulted Turbine. I never did.

Assuming that they cannot take into account the level 19-20 enhancements of melee classes into account when reading this conversation is an insult to their intelligence. e can only talk about what we know. We could hypothesize what could be there, but it would lead us where? If something(s) they will in Module 9 will totally change the metagame, they can take it into account quite easily.

By the way, that also means I do not think high level enhancements are the cure to the overpoweredness of monk splash as it would render any multiclassing unappealing and would just move the problem from "monk splash" to "overpowered high level enhancement"

No one would ever want Kardins eye, or boots of the innocent, or +5 cloak, or +5 on their dt armor, because we don't need good saves.

That is a straw man Xyfiel. I expect more of you.

It is not that an additional bonus to saving throw is undesirable. It is simply that between +5 to saves and +5 to Armor Class, the bonus to AC is way more appealing than the bonus to saving throws. Beside, splashing two levels of monk adds +2-3 to all of your saves and additional bonus to your will saves depending on your Wisdom that is most likely higher than what you planned it to be.

Icy is an item that should be held in balance against other items.
Wisdom bonus to AC is a class ability that should be held in balance to other class abilities.

Thing is, these loose at that and loose when you put them into the metagame.

While a piece can be fine on its own, what matters is how it interacts with others. Even played M:tG? That is how a card becomes overpowered. It is not by how powerful it is on its own that is usually problematic as R&D often squishes those card. It's how they interact with others to become something way more overpowered than it was intended to be.

[Borror0]

because if gs sheilds were added it would most likely be in the shroud which is run by everyone and their grandma thus promoting social interactions since the shroud is a 12 man raid. and you gotta be either a) a complete a$$hole or b) 5 years old to shunned from the shroud since so many lfms for it are up each day. so how is that so terrible for grouping purposes?

Sorry if this is going to sound rude, I don't intend it to be but... that is not true.

That is only if everyone has your playstyle, and we know that is not the case. There are plenty of players out there without a single Green Steel item. That doesn't mean they don't enjoy the game. That only means they don't play as much as you or I. That is even truer for new players.

Think about the player that will level his S&B characters from level 1 to 20. His first character. What do you think his AC will be by level 16?

[Borror0]

Honestly, the gap between S&B and TWF is too multi-faceted to claim that introducing gear (shield GS crafting) to solve a portion of this issue is a bad idea.

Let me restate my position on this to make it clearer:
"I do not believe that Green Steel crafting, or any other form of crafting, could solve the issue. Or, at least, I believe it should not as there would be bad consequences for reasons I have previously stated, at least twice. While I think shields could use some improvement I do not believe it should be done not as the gap is too great. It is hard to gauge the right power level these should have. They could be overpowering S&B when everything else is dealt with, or they could be underpowered and wind up being a wasted effort and a waste of time. While still getting us grinding."

Today, I came across an article called "How to Sneak Overpowered Cards past Development" . It's about Magic the Gathering, but it can relate very well to DDO. It written by the evil twin of the usual writer of that column. He explains how to make cards that, while they seem OK at first glance, will end up being totally overpowered.

It's a nice read if you ever played MtG.

[Aesop]

s/b have less dps directly because they have a shield equipped that hasnt really been improved since the game started, whereas twf and thf have seen their gear options significantly increases with GS weapons.

TWF was also improved with the implementation of GTWF which gives two extra attacks. TWF was also given an increase in effectiveness with the Tempest Enhancement which increase RoA by 10% as well as an AC boost. The synergy between TWF and Monk Splash improved the AC potential of TWF. THF will be receiving a boost come mod 9 to improve the effect of Glancing Blows to include some of the effects from the weapon used. GS Weapons are overpowered but that is not the sole reason. Trying to fix a problem with liberal application of more overpowered equipment merely makes that equipment a requirement. Thus limiting characters even more.



if you had GS shields with very nice effects like corrosive salt guards,disintigration guard , etc,etc. do you really think as many people would look at their dps are severely weaker.

Yes. Don't get me wrong. I am not totally against craftable shields per se.... but it would not fix the problems with the S&B combat style.

i dont really mind the ac aspect since as long as you can attain the ac that is needed it doenst matter if others can too. and since you can get to 69 non-dispellable ac *** s/b in fp i dont see ac as an issue personally.

except that a character designed around defense has less defense than a character designed around offense. I'm almost willing to let the higher AC go if there are other means of Damage Mitigation available to the Defensive character that doesn't require them to turn off their DPS totally... especially since they have almost 50% of the offense based characters potential DPS already.

damage mitigation is another topic entirely since you can be s/b and have evasion. i wont argue evasion is better than no evasion.

which requires lowering AC and/or increasing points put into Dexterity and would require even more stat distribution to make for an effective use of the ability in the first place as most S&B are Fighters and thus don't have Reflex as one of their "good" saves thus requiring more dedication to up that save and thus fewer resources to go around.

Again the Defensive Character has less defense than the offensive character. The more I read these discussions the more I think I'm on to something with my suggestions.


i just find it odd that someone is agaisnt anything that increases a shields viablity just because they think it wont make a big enough difference in their minds.

Actually he's against it because he sees inflation as a bad thing. There needs to be a range that allows for all player types to be effective and enjoy the game. Requiring a specific piece of gear is not the way to do it. It only leads to LFMs with silly statements like "Bring your WoP" "LEET players only" "have Wounding Weapons"

TWF have the best of all worlds and its not just due to the equipment (though that is a contributor) fixing a problem by adding gear is a dirty band aid and it will eventually fall off to reveal a festering wound that was created by not treating the problem and only covering it up.

Aesop

[Borror0]

TWF have the best of all worlds and its not just due to the equipment (though that is a contributor) fixing a problem by adding gear is a dirty band aid and it will eventually fall off to reveal a festering wound that was created by not treating the problem and only covering it up.

LOL, I like the way you say it. :P

Very nice post Aesop. Thank you for covering a few points I didn't.

[krud]

Sorry if this is going to sound rude, I don't intend it to be but... that is not true.

That is only if everyone has your playstyle, and we know that is not the case. There are plenty of players out there without a single Green Steel item. That doesn't mean they don't enjoy the game. That only means they don't play as much as you or I. That is even truer for new players.

Think about the player that will level his S&B characters from level 1 to 20. His first character. What do you think his AC will be by level 16?

True, but it also takes a grind to make a TWF with good AC. It doesn't come automatically either. Even a S&B grinder can get the chaosguard, dragontooth belt, or chattering ring which will add considerable AC over any new S&B player. The item-flation is not just limited to TWF, though it does favor TWF at the moment. Actually, that arguement probably does more to support adding some effects to shields to help the casual player.

I would hardly consider heavy fort, protection +5, greater elemental resistance, or resistance +4 as an extra bonus on a shield overpowering at all. It would add some worthwhile shields in the random loot table for s&b. All it does is help them consolidate item slots. What would they replace the freed slot that could possibly be overpowering? For those who are willing to grind, would a greensteel or dragontouched shield give them anything better than what other people have? It would only give them a similar option.

Even with the nerfs to icy raiments and monk splash, shields will still need something to keep them interesting and viable. Now, let's assume that icy raiments and monk splash never get nerfed (a very good possibility). Wouldn't giving shields some kind of boost make sense? You are arguing that s&b lags in AC, but reject anything that could help it. Your entire arguement against boosting shields hinges on those nerfs you keep bringing up. Without those nerfs all you are accomplishing is to keep s&b behind the curve.

I agree with you that we need those nerfs, but it's a very good possibility that none of that will ever happen. Then what? Regardless of how out of whack TWF AC is, they need to increase s&b dps (as well as THF), that is certain. Second, is to address the other half of s&b, which is also sorely lacking. However, what they don't need to do is to overcompensate with dps to make up for the lack of defense offered by shields. They can do both.

[Borror0]

True, but it also takes a grind to make a TWF with good AC. It doesn't come automatically either.

Never said the opposite.

Actually, that arguement probably does more to support adding some effects to shields to help the casual player.

Not sure of what you mean here...

It would add some worthwhile shields in the random loot table for s&b.

...did I speak against that?

Of course not, but you have to redesign the random loot system and that is not an easy task. So far, all I have seen about it was suggestion from sirgog in a different thread and it didn't touch the shields if I remember correctly. I am not against a redesign of random loot, it is actually quite needed on many levels. However, it has to be calculated and we are in a metagame where it is quite hard to evaluate the value of a shield.

Thus, why I say it's dangerous to balance. Plus, randomly throwing big bonuses on a shield is bad design.

Even with the nerfs to icy raiments and monk splash, shields will still need something to keep them interesting and viable.

I don't disagree, but the order in which you proceed is important.

Now, let's assume that icy raiments and monk splash never get nerfed (a very good possibility). Wouldn't giving shields some kind of boost make sense? You are arguing that s&b lags in AC, but reject anything that could help it.

That is not true.

I am not happy to nerf. I'm not like "Yay! Let's nerf those bastards!" I simply reject what I see as moving the problem elsewhere. What good is it to solve a problem if you are going to cause a greater one? Turbine should be striving to make a better game and sometimes that includes nerfing and you know it.

[Vorn]

I find the thoughts that itemflation is bad in a cinematic, monty-haul campaign to be highly amusing.

We have g.s. or d.t. for every slot except trinket, ring, and shield.
/scribbles furious note to Festivault Jester--
Bring on the uber shields!!! Bring on the uber rings!!! Bring on the uber trinkets!!!

Oh, and more cupcakes, too!

[krud]

Which one of these effects if included on a shield would make s&b overpowered?
eldritch
25% striding,
greater resists,
stat skills +3,
combustion VII,
fearsome,
greater false life,
heavyfort,
Resistance +5,
Lionheart (procs remove fear),
feather falling,
Deathblock,
Healing amplification 10%

tempest
Stat +6,
Protection +5,
Corrosive Salt Guard,
Wizadry VI,
exceptional stat +1,
magma surge guard.
efficient metamagic empower healing 2,
True Seeing,
SR 22,

sovereign
Tharnes Wrath*,
Lorriks Champion*,
Air Guard,
Melodic Guard (chance to dance on hit),
Superior Combustion VII,
Dodge +3**,
Disintegration guard,
Destruction,
Greater Elemental energy,
Smiting,
resonance 8,
sunder guard,
Crippling,
Earthguard (procs stoneskin),
Greater potency VII,
Greater spell pen VIII,
+4 insight AC,
potency 8,
natural armor +4,
earthgrab guard

combined with a suit of d.t. armor you would be able to get 2 from each group. What combination would be any better than someone with a shroud weapon in offhand plus d.t. armor? I'm not saying this is the only fix needed for s&b, but at the top of the game how is this any more powerful than what others are getting with two shroud weapons plus d.t. armor (or icy raiments)? The sovereign side has some of the better effects, so there may be some potential there, but at first glance it does not appear huge.

edit - If that is deemed too much then allow only one D.T. item per character, either a suit of armor or a shield, but not both.

[Borror0]

Comparison with Shroud items isn't really the best way to prove something isn't overpowered...