Shield Crafting, In development? Or do I go TWF?

[Aesop]

Ranger favored defense and ranger favored saves. The only thing the shield would give is +1 to each of those over what a ranger can get and the DR (which may cause issues if it doesn't correctly stack with barbarian DR fully).

Which only really matter if they don't stack with the Ward. Most Equipment stack with Enhancements though so I'd assume they would.

Not saying the idea is perfect.

Aesop


Oh sorry I forgot the DR thing... ya know I'm not sure. Maybe have it increase the Blocking DR instead of Straight DR? Leans more towards the good part of the Shields without being arbitrary

[Chaos000]

not to derail the consensus people seem to have as to how they feel that shields should go but my suggestion is perhaps maybe some of the enhancements on shields we find in pen and paper.

[Chaos000]

breaking rules wise on a crafted shield in the way weapons are in the shroud I think it would be nice if there were some damaging effects that could be applied to shield bashes. lightning strike, enervation, magna burst, earthgrab... and to compensate for the slow attack speed via shield up the percentage from 1% to 5%

[sephiroth1084]

breaking rules wise on a crafted shield in the way weapons are in the shroud I think it would be nice if there were some damaging effects that could be applied to shield bashes. lightning strike, enervation, magna burst, earthgrab... and to compensate for the slow attack speed via shield up the percentage from 1% to 5%

I think that, even if it were 15% you wouldn't see people shield bashing very often. It's just too slow, and does too little damage to make up for a full attack chain with a solid weapon.

Though it might be interesting if the percentage were very high (25%+)...

Get a shield with one of these abilities on it as a situational debuff weapon.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I think that, even if it were 15% you wouldn't see people shield bashing very often. It's just too slow, and does too little damage to make up for a full attack chain with a solid weapon.

Though it might be interesting if the percentage were very high (25%+)...

Get a shield with one of these abilities on it as a situational debuff weapon.

Suggestion: make shields with effects like shattermantle, cursespewing or destruction.

Then an intimitank can intimidate to themselves while blocking and shield-bash debuffs to help the group attack the intimidated mob.

Garth

[Chaos000]

Suggestion: make shields with effects like shattermantle, cursespewing or destruction.

Then an intimitank can intimidate to themselves while blocking and shield-bash debuffs to help the group attack the intimidated mob.

Garth

hmm... what about something like shattermantle guard, cursespewing guard, or destruction guard.

that would be a sexy item

... the more I think about it. what if crafted shields had the ability to inflict the damage that their guard item does on attack? that would be kind of nice.

[sephiroth1084]

Oh! What about putting similar abilities (Shattermantle, Destruction, etc...) on shields and have that apply to attacks made with your weapon, in the same way that Backstabbing or Vertigo apply to both weapons when dual wielding?

That could be interesting, if not a fix exactly. It could certainly improve the quality of random loot shields as long as the abilities don't hedge out the defensive bonus of the shield.

Guard-type effects are kind of underwhelming for someone focusing on S&B, since, presumably, the desire is to NOT get hit, and one would build oneself with that goal in mind, making Guards less effective since they would rarely activate.

[Borror0]

Too many Icy Raiments out there to break them

Why do you say that? I don't know, just give them a large scale and make the Raiment +3 Dodge.

[...] the +2 from Tempest isn't by itself hugely significant. Most of the AC is from Dex and Wis.

Ya, but it adds up. Making it a Shield bonus would be more logic and less dangerous.

Yeah, only being able to add Wis to your AC equal to your monk level would solve some problems, but not all, and would likely result in there being far fewer characters with any monk levels running around Stormreach, since the splash would be hardly worthwhile.

Less? Obvious since it will be not overpowered anymore.

Hardly worthwhile?! That is untrue. We are talking ab out two free feats, +3 AC, +2 to all your saves and Evasion.

[sephiroth1084]

Why do you say that? I don't know, just give them a large scale and make the Raiment +3 Dodge.

Ya, but it adds up. Making it a Shield bonus would be more logic and less dangerous.

Less? Obvious since it will be not overpowered anymore.

Hardly worthwhile?! That is untrue. We are talking ab out two free feats, +3 AC, +2 to all your saves and Evasion.

Oh, Tempest should likely grant a shield bonus, but should stack with TWD if the character takes it. I meant removing the +2 AC from Tempest is of nominal impact.

Making the IR a +3 Dodge would only matter if it didn't stack with the Chattering Ring, but then S&B would still get the short end of the stick, because we'd have to continue grinding the Titan, while TWF would be getting IR in the Sub. Not a bad idea, just frustrating from a looting standpoint. Maybe fix this by adding the CR to the Sub chest? =)

The 2 feats, if they were that important, could also be acquired from 2 levels of fighter, which would also bring with it +1 Str and Haste boost. The +3 AC would still likely be enough to warrant the 2 level splash, and the bonus to saves sweetens the deal some, though by itself I don't think many would make the dip. As for Evasion, depending upon who we are talking about it may be worthwhile or may be pointless (Rangers and Rogues are getting that also anyway).

[Borror0]

Maybe fix this by adding the CR to the Sub chest? =)

Don't laugh, but I actually suggested this pre-Module 8.0

The 2 feats, if they were that important, could also be acquired from 2 levels of fighter, which would also bring with it +1 Str and Haste boost. The +3 AC would still likely be enough to warrant the 2 level splash, and the bonus to saves sweetens the deal some, though by itself I don't think many would make the dip. As for Evasion, depending upon who we are talking about it may be worthwhile or may be pointless (Rangers and Rogues are getting that also anyway).

What I'm saying is, there are clearly benefits to it. Compared to now, it's a big drop, but that is because of how overpowered the ability is.

[sephiroth1084]

Don't laugh, but I actually suggested this pre-Module 8.0

What I'm saying is, there are clearly benefits to it. Compared to now, it's a big drop, but that is because of how overpowered the ability is.

I won't laugh, but I wish they had done so before I ran the titan around 35 times (to 20 completions) for that infernal ring.

There are benefits, yes, but it dramatically alters a lot of people's characters. It probably should have worked this way from the beginning, but undoing this would be painful.

[Borror0]

It probably should have worked this way from the beginning, but undoing this would be painful.

...and that is why I always talk about adding a reroll button to the game.

Let's you redesign your character without the 6 month long grinding penalty which is the real problem here.

[Borror0]

Not to mention, that if we do such gear-less balancing via enhancements or feats, we pigeon-hole the populace, since not taking these very powerful abilities will truly gimp your character.

But, the same can be said about gear. You know that right?

For example, if they add a new named shield with a +6 Dodge bonus on it, anyone who doesn't have it is utterly gimped. Whether you don't have it because you didn't feel like it or because you can't get one, either way your choices are limited to that very specific shield as you got to have it to improve your AC.

Same again can be said about the Aesop/Jeffywan Greater Bane suggestion.

Grimdiegn tried to make the point earlier in this thread that I was going to "overbalance" the feats and enhancements in order for Green Steel equipment. If you ignore the sarcastic and condescending tone he used to point that out, it's a fair point. However, that assumes equipment, feats and enhancements currently share the ratio they should. Which I disagree with.

The problem is two fold. First of all, if you don't have the said gear you are strongly penalized. That is a point I have discussed often in this thread and that can be addressed by making good gear easier to acquire. Placing something between the current easy to acquire loot and Green Steel equipment or by improving randomly generated loot.

Secondly, equipment currently does not allow customization. At least, clearly not as much as it should. There is too much of a vertical focus and not enough of an horizontal focus. There should be more bonus added that improve the character differently than just new bonus of AC, saves and the like. Trying to find new cool stuff. The reason to try to improve horizontally rather than vertically is that improving vertically forces you to pick that up. It creates a "If I don't have Chaosgarde, I'll be two points behind. I got to find a way to free up that bracer slot." You can't put anything else in that slot. You loose options.

Shifting some of that to enhancements and feats is a good idea, given that those matter far too little anymore. Especially feats.

[Chaos000]

Guard-type effects are kind of underwhelming for someone focusing on S&B, since, presumably, the desire is to NOT get hit, and one would build oneself with that goal in mind, making Guards less effective since they would rarely activate.

I was thinking along the lines of someone tanking for a raid like vision of destruction. he's going to get hit eventually no matter how high his AC is. But if by being hit the attacker is affected by destruction...

currently guard items only do one or two dice worth of damage. If they upped it for shields or even tossed in a fire shield effect and/or tossed in some precentages a certain element is absorbed... it would definitely be worth it.

[Alcides]

But, the same can be said about gear. You know that right?

For example, if they add a new named shield with a +6 Dodge bonus on it, anyone who doesn't have it is utterly gimped. Whether you don't have it because you didn't feel like it or because you can't get one, either way your choices are limited to that very specific shield as you got to have it to improve your AC.

Same again can be said about the Aesop/Jeffywan Greater Bane suggestion.

Grimdiegn tried to make the point earlier in this thread that I was going to "overbalance" the feats and enhancements in order for Green Steel equipment. If you ignore the sarcastic and condescending tone he used to point that out, it's a fair point. However, that assumes equipment, feats and enhancements currently share the ratio they should. Which I disagree with.

The problem is two fold. First of all, if you don't have the said gear you are strongly penalized. That is a point I have discussed often in this thread and that can be addressed by making good gear easier to acquire. Placing something between the current easy to acquire loot and Green Steel equipment or by improving randomly generated loot.

Secondly, equipment currently does not allow customization. At least, clearly not as much as it should. There is too much of a vertical focus and not enough of an horizontal focus. There should be more bonus added that improve the character differently than just new bonus of AC, saves and the like. Trying to find new cool stuff. The reason to try to improve horizontally rather than vertically is that improving vertically forces you to pick that up. It creates a "If I don't have Chaosgarde, I'll be two points behind. I got to find a way to free up that bracer slot." You can't put anything else in that slot. You loose options.

Shifting some of that to enhancements and feats is a good idea, given that those matter far too little anymore. Especially feats.

Borror0, what would you make of the following suggestions for accommodating player needs(balance issues aside). Assuming that item dodge bonuses of the same number do not stack.

1. Add a dodge ritual to accessories.
2. Allow all dodge rituals to be performed up to a maximum of 4 times on any item.

This would improve the following
1. Free up a tanking character's reliance on needing a chaosgaurde, chattering ring or icy raiment for maximum AC.
2. Icy Raiment users would not gain extra AC beyond what is already attainable. 3. S&B AC would go up by a maximum of 4.
4. The accessory dodge ritual could be composed of fairly easy to obtain collectibles to be more accessible to newer/existing players.

[Borror0]

1. Add a dodge ritual to accessories.
2. Allow all dodge rituals to be performed up to a maximum of 4 times on any item.

Why not just remove the Icy Raiment then? Nearly the same result, less effort.

It'd also make low level AC quite easy to get. That is assuming you mean new rituals, not the ones we currently got. Otherwise, it wouldn't even work as they currently stack together and would keep doing so. So, basically, you could get +4 AC per accessory slot. That'd be insane.

Could you clarify what you meant?

1. Free up a tanking character's reliance on needing a Chaosgaurde, chattering ring or icy raiment for maximum AC.

Correction: It would make them useless.

2. Icy Raiment users would not gain extra AC beyond what is already attainable.

That's not true.

Everyone would gain +1. Icy Raiment users would get an extra +2. For a total of +3 AC.

[Turial]

Borror0, what would you make of the following suggestions for accommodating player needs(balance issues aside). Assuming that item dodge bonuses of the same number do not stack.

1. Add a dodge ritual to accessories.
2. Allow all dodge rituals to be performed up to a maximum of 4 times on any item.

This would improve the following
1. Free up a tanking character's reliance on needing a chaosgaurde, chattering ring or icy raiment for maximum AC.
2. Icy Raiment users would not gain extra AC beyond what is already attainable. 3. S&B AC would go up by a maximum of 4.
4. The accessory dodge ritual could be composed of fairly easy to obtain collectibles to be more accessible to newer/existing players.

Do you mean the following? or am I missing something:

1. Dodge bonuses from items and rituals of equal magnitude do not stack, they can still stack with feats.
2. Dodge bonus rituals may be performed on armor, shields, and accessories.
3. There are now 4 dodge bonus rituals; least, lesser, dodge, greater for +1, +2, +3, and +4 respectively.

Maximum dodge bonus (non-feat based or spell based) = +10
Maximum total dodge bonus = +17

So one could wear the IR or have +4 dodge ritual, one could wear chattering ring or +3 dodge ritual, one could wear chaosguards or +2 dodge ritual, and +1 dodge ritual.

Seems like the type of system that would eliminate the need for atleast 3 items in the game as no one in their right mind would wear those items if they could simply apply a ritual for the same effect on an item of their choice.

[Alcides]

Everyone would gain +1. Icy Raiment users would get an extra +2. For a total of +3 AC.

I missed the +2 AC. However, I was also proposing that dodge bonuses of the same magnitude not stack. So the maximum dodge you would be able to get from items is 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10.

[Borror0]

I missed the +2 AC. However, I was also proposing that dodge bonuses of the same magnitude not stack. So the maximum dodge you would be able to get from items is 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10.

Would those replace the existing armor/shield ritual?

Otherwise, S&B would get +3 AC and Icy Raiment users would get +2. Either way, it'd make three existing items fall into uselessness. Why just not remove them instead?

[Alcides]

Would those replace the existing armor/shield ritual?

Otherwise, S&B would get +3 AC and Icy Raiment users would get +2. Either way, it'd make three existing items fall into uselessness. Why just not remove them instead?

Basically, a +1/2/3/4 dodge bonus from any item/ritual would not stack with another respective +1/2/3/4 dodge bonus from any other item/ritual. So a +1 dodge ritual on a shield would merely overlap a +1 dodge ritual from armor or accessory not stack.