Shield Crafting, In development? Or do I go TWF?

[Deathseeker]

Icy Raiments are not crafted gear, which was that you talked about in our previous post. Thus, it' a completely different topic. But, if you want to know, the right approach to that is to nerf it. It shouldn't have existed in the first place. It puts TWF higher than it should be and makes it harder for everyone to achieve good AC.

On this, we can agree. While the forums might explode if they actually did it, I do think this would go a long way to fixing it. They also look like they are doing something to nerf the +2 ac from Tempest which will also change that balance somewhat.

Could it be that they gave everyone the opportunity grab Icey Raiments via the skelly chest, so that when they nerf it, it will be nerfing something that required little effort to get so it will be perceived better? Ok, I know it's a stretch...but one can hope..

Let me try this one again...

Do you believe, wearing nothing but loot table gear (nothing named or crafted) but with all available enhancements and feats, that a TWF and S&B are balanced?

[Borror0]

Do you believe, wearing nothing but loot table gear (nothing named or crafted) but with all available enhancements and feats, that a TWF and S&B are balanced?

Even if we ignore monk splash, S&B is still behind.

The AC aspect would be fine, but S&B is still way behind in DPS. It would need a little help as the sacrifice of DPS is a greater cost than the higher AC will reward.

[Turial]

Even if we ignore monk splash, S&B is still behind.

The AC aspect would be fine, but S&B is still way behind in DPS. It would need a little help as the sacrifice of DPS is a greater cost than the higher AC will reward.

Enter in TWF with a shield in the off hand. Improved shield bash would let the S&B keep the AC and the TWF style would add to DPS without allowing them to eclipse the TWF with two actual weapons, unless they really allowed combat feats to affect shield bashing and someone chose to put the feats into it.

[Varr]

I am a halfling rouge with Dragonmarks for healing, I am sneaky and assasinate but also jump in and flank with high sneak attack DPS, which at times gets an enimes attention or puts me in range of an arc attack, when this occurs I back out and heal myself and then reenter. High AC means I backout less and can continue my DPS without draining healing resources. My rouge trainer foucsed on survivablity (a dead rouge is a useless rouge) and S/B used to be the best way to survive. Now it is looking like TWF is.
I just don't like feeling as if there is only one effective style and I need to do what everyone else is-- I like D&D and the feats because it means I as a rouge am slightly different and can be effective using different tactics. It just seems weird for better defense I should switch to TWF rather then S/B.

Ah I see the problem here......we differ greatly on rogue philosophy! That works........this will clerify things.......ac on a rogue that is not built to solo is totally, absolutly, 100% worthless to me after level 9. If my fem rogues had better undergarments, they would not bother to get the super sexy black dragon leathers and run 100% of the time in a sweet teddy. To me rogues are just like barbs.......ac is as nothing and dps is everything....but they dont have the burden of having to get pounded on like a barb because they use agro management to stay untouched and can self heal thru wand or scroll when things get sideways.

[Varr]

Gerr, duplicate

[Alcides]

It is not punishing them, but simply that there is nothing we can do about it.

If Turbine adds the possibility to craft the weapon you want, that problem will arise. A two-handed fighting character will craft his own. Then, a two-weapon fighting character will craft his own. Now, if Turbine sets a limit of only one crafted weapon equipped at the time, it severely punishes the two-weapon fighter in comparison to the two-handed fighting character.

Turbine are thus stuck at allowing TWF to wield the item. It's inherent to the design of TWF unless they code it so wielding one one-handed weapon in your main hand will also add a copy of the same weapon in your off-hand. However, that is a totally different topic.

This is what I can deduce about your stance on S&B vs TWF
1. We can't do anything about TWF.
2. We can't have crafted shields.

By virtue of #1, you cannot nerf Icy Raiment or you would be doing something about TWF.
By virtue of #1, you cannot nerf anything that affects TWF otherwise you would be doing something about TWF.
By virtue of #2, we can do something else that does not violate #1 or we do nothing.

So do we do something that doesn't violate #1 or do we do nothing?

Crafting two weapons, as mentioned above, cannot be prevented. Or at least should not be prevented for as long as you care of the balance between THF and TWF. However, the balance between TWF and S&B can be maintained without the existence of crafting.

Define balance as it relates between S&B and TWF.

"Because I want to" isn't a valid argument and only makes you look self-centered.

Well then everyone is guilty of being self centered when making suggestions because it is a direct result of how they want an outcome to be. Thus my suggestions for how I would like to see the game implemented are no more self centered than your suggestions for how you would like to see the game balanced.

It is also in the best interest of a MMO company to produce a well-developed game.

It's also a debate of whether or not players are going to leave over the nerf of an item. Most aren't.

...or that you are capable of admitting you messed up in the first place and that you put your game before your ego.

As a developer, I'm just going to say this. You do whatever you are told to do to meet the needs of your paying customers. A well developed piece of software is one that has a very good reciprocal relationship between the developers and the target audience. Until DDO has a better mechanism than this forum for facilitating to the developers what a majority of the player base actually wants we are stuck with what they give us which is not reciprocal.

In the future if the player base as a whole had the opportunity to give suggestions for new features and to vote for/against a particular feature being implemented I think that would be an ideal reciprocal relationship between the player base and the devs.

Plus, it would be to the TWF characters' advantage that they prefer nerfing the Icy Raiments.

No it is at the TWF character's disadvantage because they lose AC and become more of a liability to being healed.

[query]

we know TWF is overpowered with what's out there and no GS crafting is going to be taken away unless it ALL is taken away from all weaponry. Even if limited,could you imagine all the peopole who for months did the hard route to get specific abilities linked to enhancements now told it ain't happening?

No, the mess w GS is stuck w weaponry so far.

Now we have slot machine armor which (IMO) is retarted in its implementation. On even a base level, if I wanted to gamble on my spending resources, I'd go to one of the gambling NPCS (which odds we see on losing are closing in on getting the same ability again and again once you insert the coin...err rune into the slot...err altar.)

So, that's here, and honestly,I wouldn't mind while it's NEW if they would pull this and rework it somehow based on player feedback.

But for now,it's here too and defense got forgotten and unstackable AGAIN.

So we really have to ask if we are going to have an across the board update to EVERY shield, a certain ability updated, adding them to the slot machine or making GS shields?

On Devil's advocate, doesn't the "insight" bonus for items in GS show that unless removed, shields are now unfairly neglected for the defense they deserve as well? Forget attacks, I would accept a line of GS shield craftings SOLELY for defensive purposes whether AC or neg lvl absorption or DR, etc.

Or nerf ALL the GS options to rebalance shields.

Yeah,and until the slot machine outcome is fixed or changed to something else, adding shields here is a waste of gems and runes.

So until somebody shows a crafting-level powered opportunity boost for shields that doesn't include GS pathing, shields all but MUST go the path or be discarded after a certain level due to the gear we have to now carry just to make up for their underpowerdness.

I too dread my pallie having to go TWF or THF since shields will do near nothing but a +1 here and there, and pulling for named loot is as dumb as ignoring GS crafting or GH armor gambling.

And sadly, I feel Borr has a bias which will use whatever "fact" he can against shields while looking to the other stuff and saying too late, yet sees no problem with the rainments since they are "newer" but now hurting monks if lowered.

Well, lower it all or move it up to an equal playing field. I shouldn't have my basic items updated if everything BUT shields now can be crafted or "customized" by gambling.

Just plain stupid I can gamble a better docent I could ever pull/alchemical anyay.

[Turial]

This is what I can deduce about your stance on S&B vs TWF
1. We can't do anything about TWF. Cant do anything about the ability for someone to use two crafted weapons without punishing that player compared to combat styles that only allow one crafted weapon either due to hand position requirements or holding a shield. AC is independent of ones ability to hold and fight with two weapons because everyone can hold and fight with two weapons...unless they only have one hand.
2. We can't have crafted shields.

By virtue of #1, you cannot nerf Icy Raiment or you would be doing something about TWF. You can nerf the IR because AC is independent of the TWF feat line. Nerfing the IR would affect more then just TWF PC's.
By virtue of #1, you cannot nerf anything that affects TWF otherwise you would be doing something about TWF.
By virtue of #2, we can do something else that does not violate #1 or we do nothing.

So do we do something that doesn't violate #1 or do we do nothing?


Define balance as it relates between S&B and TWF. One gets slightly better AC at a cost of DPS. The other gets a bit of AC and a lot of DPS. The problem is that defense as a strategy is poor compared to simply having the monster die faster as things currently stand. The dodge items in the game that Armored PC's can't wear are causing issues.
.......
No it is at the TWF character's disadvantage because they lose AC and become more of a liability to being healed. And yet people still put up with barbarians on a regular basis.

In red.

[Jeffywan]

Ah I see the problem here......we differ greatly on rogue philosophy! .... To me rogues are just like barbs.......ac is as nothing and dps is everything..... they use agro management to stay untouched and can self heal thru wand or scroll when things get sideways.

That is what I like about D&D your rouge can operate effectivly that way and I can focus a bit more on AC so I don't get hit by glancing blows/cleaves etc. I go dragonmarks during combat to save time from switching to scrolls or wands and back to my S/B. I guess I just hope that something is done to preserve the diversity, when all rouges take TWF because the benifits greatly outway the S/B or some other style I would like to see that somthing is being done (wheather crafting, more random +5 sheild drops with other defensive benifits (like insight bonus, gaurds, etc.) or more named shields). As it stands if I get a good effect on a sheild it is a +1 or +2 sheild and then I am definitly better AC wise with a second crafted weapon with the +4 insight and higher DPS.

[query]

to that wonderful rogue example posted by you two! Dead on!

I want my repeating CB rogue to have the same opportuniuty even if she does NOT melee the big bads.

[Alcides]

In red.

So it's okay to punish a TWF build by virtue of being a two weapon fighting build? Tell me how that's fair.

It is not punishing them, but simply that there is nothing we can do about it.

Borror0 is directly stating that there is that can be done about TWF builds. If you nerf Icy Raiment then you are affecting some TWF builds but yet he has stated there is nothing we can do about two weapon fighting builds. Therefore if you nerf Icy Raiment you violate the statement "there is nothing we can do about it[two weapon fighting builds]" as you are clearly doing something about two weapon fighting builds by nerfing Icy Raiment as it affects some two weapon fighting builds. My argument holds until "there is nothing we can do about it" argument is retracted. End of discussion.

[Borror0]

This is what I can deduce about your stance on S&B vs TWF
1. We can't do anything about TWF.

Wrong. Totally wrong.

We can't do anything about the ability for a player to wield two crafted weapons without punishing that player compared to other combat styles that only allow one weapon. The capacity of TWF players to gain high AC is not related to their capacity to wield two crafted weapons.

It is rather related to the fact that TWF can gain high AC while TWF through high Dex, IR or monk Wisdom bonus to AC.

Define balance as it relates between S&B and TWF.

Make a clearer statement.

In the future if the player base as a whole had the opportunity to give suggestions for new features and to vote for/against a particular feature being implemented I think that would be an ideal reciprocal relationship between the player base and the devs.

Majority does not always make right.

No it is at the TWF character's disadvantage because they lose AC and become more of a liability to being healed.

Here, developers have three choices:

1. Ignore the complaints, do nothnig about it.
2. Come up with extremely complicated fixes to improve S&B.
3. Nerf the IR.

Option #2 and option #3 would lead to a common outcome: S&B will be better in comparison to TWF.

So, do they want the developers to spend less or more time on the issue? Do they prefer an elegant and simple solution to the problem or do they prefer the most complex one that might take a few try before getting it right and could possibly create more problems?

There is also option #4: adding new gear int the game. Again, the same problem arise: they would be proxy-nerfed.

So, why go with that route?

[query]

the minority is wrong too.

Wrong. Totally wrong.

We can't do anything about the ability for a player to wield two crafted weapons without punishing that player compared to other combat styles that only allow one weapon. The capacity of TWF players to gain high AC is not related to their capacity to wield two crafted weapons.

It is rather related to the fact that TWF can gain high AC while TWF through high Dex, IR or monk Wisdom bonus to AC.


Make a clearer statement.

Majority does not always make right.



Here, developers have three choices:

1. Ignore the complaints, do nothnig about it.
2. Come up with extremely complicated fixes to improve S&B.
3. Nerf the IR.

Option #2 and option #3 would lead to a common outcome: S&B will be better in comparison to TWF.

So, do they want the developers to spend less or more time on the issue? Do they prefer an elegant and simple solution to the problem or do they prefer the most complex one that might take a few try before getting it right and could possibly create more problems?

There is also option #4: adding new gear int the game. Again, the same problem arise: they would be proxy-nerfed.

So, why go with that route?

[Borror0]

And sometimes the minority is wrong too.

That is true as well. I was just pointing out that Alcides was using a logical fallacy known as appeal to majority.

[Borror0]

Borror0 is directly stating that there is that can be done about TWF builds.

The part you quoted clearly did not state that there is nothing that can be done about TWF characters. Read again.

[query]

true,I know the straw man and slipery slope ones as well. But bluntly, the playerbase should decide the releases by majority assuming they take their
time to give feedback of course (no sampling decision if you will.)

Then again, the friends list update and toolbars were MINORITY requests, yet Gnome has been cited as "not popular enough"...so I throw up my hands what is vocal enough anyway!

Turbine needs to take its ADD meds

That is true as well. I was just pointing out that Alcides was using a logical fallacy known as appeal to majority.

[Jeffywan]

Here, developers have three choices:

1. Ignore the complaints, do nothnig about it.
2. Come up with extremely complicated fixes to improve S&B.
3. Nerf the IR.

Option #2 and option #3 would lead to a common outcome: S&B will be better in comparison to TWF.

So, do they want the developers to spend less or more time on the issue? Do they prefer an elegant and simple solution to the problem or do they prefer the most complex one that might take a few try before getting it right and could possibly create more problems?

There is also option #4: adding new gear int the game. Again, the same problem arise: they would be proxy-nerfed.

So, why go with that route?

Why is #2 need to be extremly complecated? While I think it would be great to see somthing specific for S/B as a S/B user I don't expect a entirely new crafting system just for the S/B out there, but expanding an existing system to include sheilds maybe a sheild that can have an Eldrich and Tempest upgrade, still keeping the soverign for the armors. Or a greensteel sheild. Would those be horrible or complicated?

As for option #4 how does new gear proxy-nerf other gear? If there was a piece of gear one class or style wouldn't go for but produced a nice effect and then that effect is offered on a diffrent type of item as well, it does not make the first item less valuable, it just extends the value to other classes and play styles.

[Alcides]

Wrong. Totally wrong.

We can't do anything about the ability for a player to wield two crafted weapons without punishing that player compared to other combat styles that only allow one weapon. The capacity of TWF players to gain high AC is not related to their capacity to wield two crafted weapons.

It is rather related to the fact that TWF can gain high AC while TWF through high Dex, IR or monk Wisdom bonus to AC.

Well if TWF builds have higher AC that S&B then give S&B more AC. Many TWF builds will still have more AC than S&B. So you cant just stop with nerfing Icy. Perhaps making the tempest bonus to AC a shield bonus along with making Improved Two Weapon Defense a Shield bonus to AC as well might be sufficient if one so chooses the almighty nerf bat approach.

Make a clearer statement.

Your claim of balance requires a working definition, otherwise your argument has no grounds and is baseless. Since your argument is defined on the basis of balance you need to define it or discontinue your argument as it has no grounds.

Majority does not always make right.

So totalitarianism should be en vogue?

Here, developers have three choices:

1. Ignore the complaints, do nothnig about it.
2. Come up with extremely complicated fixes to improve S&B.
3. Nerf the IR.

Option #2 and option #3 would lead to a common outcome: S&B will be better in comparison to TWF.

So, do they want the developers to spend less or more time on the issue? Do they prefer an elegant and simple solution to the problem or do they prefer the most complex one that might take a few try before getting it right and could possibly create more problems?

There is also option #4: adding new gear int the game. Again, the same problem arise: they would be proxy-nerfed.

So, why go with that route?

That is not a definitive list of all the actions that the developers could take and is merely speculation along with all the other stuff presented here. Perhaps you could also define elegant such that it conveys your argument in a way that doesn't merely cater to emotional values.

[Junts]

who cares about shield crafting? levik's defender is amazing.


healers bounty go!

[query]

Req: Club of Developer Sense-Knocking: Works on EACH hit...a critical means they listen to ALL people's feedback and make an informed choice based on that instead.

Why is #2 need to be extremly complecated? While I think it would be great to see somthing specific for S/B as a S/B user I don't expect a entirely new crafting system just for the S/B out there, but expanding an existing system to include sheilds maybe a sheild that can have an Eldrich and Tempest upgrade, still keeping the soverign for the armors. Or a greensteel sheild. Would those be horrible or complicated?

As for option #4 how does new gear proxy-nerf other gear? If there was a piece of gear one class or style wouldn't go for but produced a nice effect and then that effect is offered on a diffrent type of item as well, it does not make the first item less valuable, it just extends the value to other classes and play styles.