Vicious Effect and DR

[muffinlad]

Viscious purely exists to annoy my cleric as the tank using it constantly needs heals. I have done runs where I waited to see if the viscious weapon user would kill themselves with it

Me too. The other cleric always heals them though.

muffinhealer

[TehSilence]

Awright.

The dev said that the vicious effect is magical, presumably to explain why barbarian DR doesn't affect it. Various other people have said that no DR whatsoever blocks the vicious effect, and I'll take their word for it.

The invulnerability affect of certain robes/outfits says it delivers damage resistance 5/magic. What exactly does that mean? Does it mean damage from a magic spell? I thought someone above said no damage resistance stops spells. It must not mean damage from a magic weapon. Maybe wands? Magical traps? What about magic missiles (single target) vs. fireball (area affect)?

-Silence

[Ustice]

All of the above. Add to that Monk unarmed attacked at 4th level (Ki strike), dragon claws, +1 clubs of mercy, etc.

[DeadlyGazebo]

Awright.

The dev said that the vicious effect is magical, presumably to explain why barbarian DR doesn't affect it. Various other people have said that no DR whatsoever blocks the vicious effect, and I'll take their word for it.

The invulnerability affect of certain robes/outfits says it delivers damage resistance 5/magic. What exactly does that mean? Does it mean damage from a magic spell? I thought someone above said no damage resistance stops spells. It must not mean damage from a magic weapon. Maybe wands? Magical traps? What about magic missiles (single target) vs. fireball (area affect)?

-Silence

DR always applies to physical attacks only. The name after the "/" is what type of damage bypasses the DR.

So, DR #/magic means it is bypassed by attacks with the "magic" damage type. This type is on all weapons with a +1 or better enhancement bonus, as well as the natural attacks of some magical creatures. It does not apply to any spells.

So, if you have DR 5/magic from the "invulnerability" effect, that will help when someone hits you with a "masterwork quarterstaff" (damage type "bludgeon"), but not when they stab you with a "shortsword +1" (damage type "piercing, magic").

If you look at the panel at the bottom of your inventory, that will show the damage type your current weapon is doing. Pretty much all weapons will do one of slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning; materials will add their damage type (this is what a silver or adamantine weapon is for -- it gets through someones DR/silver); +1 or better will add "magic", and so on.

[Angelus_dead]

If you look at the panel at the bottom of your inventory, that will show the damage type your current weapon is doing. Pretty much all weapons will do one of slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning; materials will add their damage type (this is what a silver or adamantine weapon is for -- it gets through someones DR/silver); +1 or better will add "magic", and so on.

There's apparently a bug with DR/Epic, because +6 weapons don't bypass it... (You'll need a +2 transmuting sword of greater reptilian bane to test that)

[Missing_Minds]

There's apparently a bug with DR/Epic, because +6 weapons don't bypass it... (You'll need a +2 transmuting sword of greater reptilian bane to test that)

Show me a ____ +6 weapon. Come on, show me. A _____ +5 flaming burst is NOT a ______ +6. A ______ +5 ____ bane is not a +(5+x) weapon.

In the name of "prefix __________ +X of suffix", the +X is what matters, nothing else to bypass epic DR. (well, there is one thing, but they've not put in the epic version of transmuting in the game yet.)

From the SRD...
"A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. "

[Angelus_dead]

Show me a ____ +6 weapon. Come on, show me. A _____ +5 flaming burst is NOT a ______ +6. A ______ +5 ____ bane is not a +(5+x) weapon.

You are wrong. A +2 Dagger of Greater Reptilian Bane DOES have a +6 enhancement bonus, whenever you're attacking a kobold or other reptile.

From the SRD...
"A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. "

Yes, I recommend you read the SRD:
Bane
A bane weapon excels at attacking one type or subtype of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe.

[Ustice]

Under the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, a weapon can be made with a total enhancement bonus of +10, but only +5 of it can be an actual enhancement bonus. The other are for other powers, they do not add to this bonus, but simply used for power level and cost.

There is a good argument for a fully tricked out Greensteal weapon. Those things are (based on P&P) completely broken. They are definitely relic level.

[Arkat]

You are wrong. A +2 Dagger of Greater Reptilian Bane DOES have a +6 enhancement bonus, whenever you're attacking a kobold or other reptile.

Incorrect. Enhancement bonuses ONLY include the "+" of the weapon. The extra stuff like Greater Reptillian Bane is a "Special Ability" that is given a Market Price Modifier "Bonus". I do not believe Greater Banes count as a +6 (or better) Market Price Modifier Bonus.

A weapon must satisfy one of three conditions to be considered "Epic."

1) It must have a +6 enhancement bonus or better. That is it must be +6 to hit and +6 to damage or better.

or

2) It must have and Enhancement bonus of at least +1 AND a Market Price Modifier Bonus of at least +6. That is the weapon must be at least +1 to hit and +1 to damage and have an Epic Special Ability such as Distant Shot (a +6 Market Price Modifier Bonus) or Dread (a +7 Market Price Modifier Bonus). Once again I do not believe Greater Banes count as a +6 (or better) Market Price Modifier Bonus considering regular Bane (not lesser bane) counts as a +1 Market Price Modifier Bonus.

or

3) Must be worth OVER 200,000 GP not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component, experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.


See Epic Magic Weapons starting on page 1 of the SRD and then more details on weapons specifically starting on page 7 here:

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35...agicItems1.rtf

[Missing_Minds]

Yes, I recommend you read the SRD:

Yes, you should and when there are conflicting things, I suggest you read further.

FAQ as of June 2008.
Suppose I have a weapon that is bane vs. constructs and it is not made of adamantine. If I attack an iron golem with this weapon, does the weapon bypass the golem’s damage reduction? In general, will a bane weapon bypass damage reduction when you use it to attack a designated foe?

The bane property doesn’t bypass damage reduction. If you hit a designated foe, however, the extra damage you deal helps you overcome any damage reduction the foe has. For example, if you have a Strength score of 16 and you hit an iron golem with a +1 construct bane longsword, you’ll deal 1d8 +1 (base damage from the +1 sword) +2 (extra enhancement bonus against your designated foe from the bane property) + 3 (Strength bonus) + 2d6 (bonus damage against your designated foe). On average you’ll deal 17 or 18 points of damage to the golem, which is enough to get a few points of damage past the golem’s damage reduction of 15/adamantine.

-----------------------------

There you have it. While it is a bonus to the enhancement value, the bane property does NOT bypass damage reduction. Of course for final say, ask Slithe.

[MysticTheurge]

There you have it. While it is a bonus to the enhancement value, the bane property does NOT bypass damage reduction. Of course for final say, ask Slithe.

While you're at it, the SRD literally says:

Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus.

An "effective enhancement bonus" greater than 6 doesn't mean you have an epic weapon.

[TehSilence]

DR always applies to physical attacks only. The name after the "/" is what type of damage bypasses the DR.

Ah, sorry DG. You said that once before in this thread, and I just kept thinking to myself, "that can't be right!". Bad case of tunnel vision, and I didn't make note that you were the one saying it. Now those robes make more sense.

-Silence

[DNDJESS]

This does have the downside of making vicious weapons mostly useless, as the number of circumstances in which you are willing to take the extra d6 of damage to do extra damage to your foe is vanishingly small, especially given the number of alternative damage-increasing-effects that your weapon could have.

So now the question has to be asked - if the players think the effect is useless, and the Devs acknowledge that the effect is mostly useless, what is the potential downside (if any) to making the vicious effect either resistable or susceptable to DR?

[Impaqt]

So now the question has to be asked - if the players think the effect is useless, and the Devs acknowledge that the effect is mostly useless, what is the potential downside (if any) to making the vicious effect either resistable or susceptable to DR?

The DOwnside? That EVeryone with any amount of DR now has access to Weapons of EVerything Bane at Level 6 is a pretty huge downside.....

If there wasnt a Upside to Vicious who would care that there was a Downside?

[DNDJESS]

The DOwnside? That EVeryone with any amount of DR now has access to Weapons of EVerything Bane at Level 6 is a pretty huge downside.....

If there wasnt a Upside to Vicious who would care that there was a Downside?

You are right in one apsect - if item DR reduced this damage, everyone would be able to use them with very little consequence. But if class and/or racial DR would reduce the damage, there would be very few people completely reducing the effects since there aren't too many characters with DR 6/-.

This might seem a bit overpowering for some characters, but I'd rather see an effect that's slightly overpowered in a few hands than an effect that's useless to all.

[MysticTheurge]

This might seem a bit overpowering for some characters, but I'd rather see an effect that's slightly overpowered in a few hands than an effect that's useless to all.

In my opinion, it'd be better to adjust the damage output to damage taken ratio by increasing the damage output rather than giving ways to reduce the damage taken.

If Vicious did something more like 4d6 damage while dealing 1d6 damage to the wielder, the weapons would start to be more useful.

[Ustice]

In my opinion, it'd be better to adjust the damage output to damage taken ratio by increasing the damage output rather than giving ways to reduce the damage taken.

If Vicious did something more like 4d6 damage while dealing 1d6 damage to the wielder, the weapons would start to be more useful.

And remember that that damage is untyped, so it works on anything. (why not just call it Force damage, for consistency)

[Thrudh]

This does have the downside of making vicious weapons mostly useless, as the number of circumstances in which you are willing to take the extra d6 of damage to do extra damage to your foe is vanishingly small, especially given the number of alternative damage-increasing-effects that your weapon could have.

Perhaps we could change it then? Maybe make it do 4d6 to critters instead of 2d6... It might be useful then. Should be a very simple change.

[Gennerik]

It is still useful in certain situations. Try it against Golems and things with damage reduction.

[Missing_Minds]

In my opinion, it'd be better to adjust the damage output to damage taken ratio by increasing the damage output rather than giving ways to reduce the damage taken.

If Vicious did something more like 4d6 damage while dealing 1d6 damage to the wielder, the weapons would start to be more useful.

But is it really necessary to start to turn vicious into greater bane everything weapons?

Besides player greed, I'd like to see where it states in any rulebook that every item enchantment must be useful with 0% determent to the player.

I will fully admit to being stuck in my head that vicious is +2d6 damage to them, 1d6 damage to you at the enchantment cost of +1. This is how it has been and I personally do not see any reason to change this. (as I said, I'm stuck.) Something most players don't get in DDO is the enchantment costs. If we actually had crafting it would be more apparent, but we don't so the actual costs vs. benefits are not as apparent.