Vicious Effect and DR

[Samadhi]

So...if we have a dev coming and telling us that vicious weapons are mostly useless, doesn't that pretty much beg the question, "Why are they in the game in the first place then?"

Bah - I love my vicious of greater construct for portal beating.

[Uproar]

This does have the downside of making vicious weapons mostly useless, as the number of circumstances in which you are willing to take the extra d6 of damage to do extra damage to your foe is vanishingly small, especially given the number of alternative damage-increasing-effects that your weapon could have.

Thank you for being refreshingly honest! I appreciate that.

(but just because it's nagging me, um... so know anyone that could dream up a quest or situation that makes it useful? That would seem to be in order here-- heck add a Masochist feat that converts the damage to extra mana or something).

[GreyRogue]

That is damage reduction that is bypassed by any magic weapon, even a lowly +1 dagger.

fixed.

That's true, but non-weapon "attacks", like magic missile or inflict light wounds are not affected by any DR, so that's a distinction without a difference. Unless I'm just not thinking of some magic "attack" that doesn't bypass DR #/magic?

[Laith]

That's true, but non-weapon "attacks", like magic missile or inflict light wounds are not affected by any DR, so that's a distinction without a difference.

arko was apparently not aware of the difference, so the distinction matters.

for anyone else not with the program: DR never ever reduces spell damage. DR only applies to physical attacks.
Any weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus or better is considered "magic" and bypasses that DR.
All weapons are required to have at least +1 enhancement bonus before other effects are applied (vorpal, flaming, etc) in strict D&D rules. Because of this requirement, all magic weapons bypass "#/magic" DR.

[GreyRogue]

arko was apparently not aware of the difference, so the distinction matters.

for anyone else not with the program: DR never ever reduces spell damage. DR only applies to physical attacks.

Ah, I got ya. Additionally, for those playing the home game: DR does not affect "extra" damage from weapons, like flaming, pure good, or vicious.

[Harncw]

arko was apparently not aware of the difference, so the distinction matters.

for anyone else not with the program: DR never ever reduces spell damage. DR only applies to physical attacks.
Any weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus or better is considered "magic" and bypasses that DR.
All weapons are required to have at least +1 enhancement bonus before other effects are applied (vorpal, flaming, etc) in strict D&D rules. Because of this requirement, all magic weapons bypass "#/magic" DR.

What about invulnerability?



Sorry couldnt resist adding this a 3rd time in the same thread

[Laith]

Sorry couldnt resist adding this a 3rd time in the same thread

it's a symptom of a poorly described/designed system that any discussion on DR invariably leads to outlining how DR works.

[DeadlyGazebo]

it's a symptom of a poorly described/designed system that any discussion on DR invariably leads to outlining how DR works.

It's one of the bits of the 3.5 ruleset that I most hate for being extremely unnecessarily confusing in all sorts of ways.
Damage Reduction and Damage Resistance both look like they should abbreviate to DR, but work differently.
DR is listed by what gets through it, while DResist is listed by what doesn't.
The distinction between magical and nonmagical attacks makes no sense to people, especially when most nonmagical attacks do damage of type "magic" (after a couple of levels, every player should have a +1 weapon, and eventually most monsters do as well).
The distinction between "this weapon effect makes the weapon do 'lawful' damage" (thus helping it defeat DR) and "this weapon does an extra d6 of 'lawful' damage" (which is unaffected by DR on the grounds of being magical) is confusing...
The DR stacking rule confuses people (hey! Why is my warforged adamantine plating not stacking with my barbarian DR? They're different types of thing, so by the stacking rules, they should stack!)
Multi-type-DR confuses people (we get plenty of bugreports on DR/slashing,bludgeoning for spearblock, and once people figure that out, they bugreport DR/silver + DR/adamantine on the vampire who wears good armor...)

I don't know of any really good concise way of describing how it works that doesn't gloss over one or more of these difficulties.

[Angelus_dead]

The DR stacking rule confuses people (hey! Why is my warforged adamantine plating not stacking with my barbarian DR? They're different types of thing, so by the stacking rules, they should stack!)
Multi-type-DR confuses people (we get plenty of bugreports on DR/slashing,bludgeoning for spearblock, and once people figure that out, they bugreport DR/silver + DR/adamantine on the vampire who wears good armor...)

You get higher quality bug reports if you have a list of Known Bugs, which also includes non-bug behavior frequently mistaken for bugs (like monks getting BAB 1 at level 1, etc and stuff).

[Laith]

I don't know of any really good concise way of describing how it works that doesn't gloss over one or more of these difficulties.

the mouse-over list of all the damage types and their individual reductions was a good try though.

unfortunately, the current "#/bypass" method is an incredibly concise way to write up DR entries... it's just unclear what the slash means. If it was written instead as "# DR bypassed by X weapons", it'd clear up most issues.

...also, commas should state "or" instead of just assuming it.

[Pyromaniac]

Viscious purely exists to annoy my cleric as the tank using it constantly needs heals. I have done runs where I waited to see if the viscious weapon user would kill themselves with it

[moorewr]

The Vicious prefix exists to torment us by being added to Power 5 weapons in the loot tables.

..and in fact you would probably take a Vicious of Disruption, for example, if you didn't have a disruptor and no way to afford one.

[adamkatt]

The Vicious prefix exists to torment us by being added to Power 5 weapons in the loot tables.

..and in fact you would probably take a Vicious of Disruption, for example, if you didn't have a disruptor and no way to afford one.

Funny thing is, before ddo i had never heard of Vicious.... And yes ive played many different types of dnd over the years...

[moorewr]

Funny thing is, before ddo i had never heard of Vicious.... And yes ive played many different types of dnd over the years...

I went straight from 1st Edition to DDO to 3.5. All of these prefixes and suffixes were new to me except for Vorpal.

[adamkatt]

Unless they every give us away to block vicious it will always be vendor trash to me...

[Angelus_dead]

I went straight from 1st Edition to DDO to 3.5. All of these prefixes and suffixes were new to me except for Vorpal.

Flaming and Bane existed in 1st edition.

[Lazarus]

i'd like to think that you at least had heard of flaming, frost, shock....

[Strykersz]

DR stops physical attacks (bad guys with swords) but not magical ones (fireballs, and also "flaming" procs on swords).

Vicious is considered a magical effect, and thus bypasses DR. It's also not an elemental effect, so it bypasses all of the "Protection from..." and "Resistance to..." things that can block many damaging magical attacks.

This does have the downside of making vicious weapons mostly useless, as the number of circumstances in which you are willing to take the extra d6 of damage to do extra damage to your foe is vanishingly small, especially given the number of alternative damage-increasing-effects that your weapon could have.

Divine Sacrifice?

[Ustice]

I don't know of any really good concise way of describing how it works that doesn't gloss over one or more of these difficulties.

And this is why we have 4.0.

[MysticTheurge]

And this is why we have 4.0.

And honestly, it's "Resist" system is pretty clear and straight-forward.

Though even it's a little confusing at times. ("If I have Resist 10 Fire and a power does 15 points of fire and radiant damage, what happens?" kind of stuff.)