Mod 7: DPS Rogue

[Borror0]

Re-read it is +8, the new Rogue ones are +12 but halfling is still +2 per level.

Oops, right.

Well we both know that is not quite accurate, no one gets 100% sneak attack swings and sometimes it is zero (many many undead quests).

True, no one ever gets 100% Sneak Attacks.
But for many many undead quests... not so much at end game unless you (or your guild) are fans of the Orchard.

The good thing about having better base damage is you don't have to worry quite as much if you miss a few sneak attacks.

Right, but +1 Str damage, the +8 from Halflings average much more.

(REDIT: Realised you're talking for Dex builds, not Str.)

[sigtrent]

Well we both know that is not quite accurate, no one gets 100% sneak attack swings and sometimes it is zero (many many undead quests). The good thing about having better base damage is you don't have to worry quite as much if you miss a few sneak attacks.

It is also not free, by going dex you lose a feat, which you could use to take something that also increases DPS as well. You also can use weapons like khopesh which generally are better DPS weapons if you choose to do so. So, even with a halfling going dex isn't "free" in a lot of ways in terms of DPS.

It is always a trade off, always should be. But I think for halflings finesse just makes the most sense. It saves build points, it has a higher maximum value, it is more synergistic with defense and rogue skills, etc.

It does cost a feat, but you are in essense getting a lot for that feat.

If you are a rogue... you mostly plan on sneak attacking. While you might do damage without it, that is your bread and butter.

[Borror0]

But I think for halflings finesse just makes the most sense.

I totally disagree. Going Str based will make you a bigger killing machine... you're only taking a hit on your Trapsmithing skills, not like those were important nowaday.

[tazman]

just wondering how do you plan on dis arming traps if you are hit with madstone.

most of the time there is mobs then traps.


tks

[ghale]

just wondering how do you plan on dis arming traps if you are hit with madstone.

most of the time there is mobs then traps.


tks

Madstone doesn't prevent search/disable .



To the Dex vs. Str...

A Str based rogue will always do more damage period. Whether you are getting sneak attacks or not with a STR based build you will always do more damage.

[sigtrent]

I totally disagree. Going Str based will make you a bigger killing machine... you're only taking a hit on your Trapsmithing skills, not like those were important nowaday.

Hmmm... well let's take a look.

Lets say you decide on the following stats (except dex and str)
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 08
Cha 12

I think that's pretty modest and about the usual for most rogues. Its costing 16pts leaving 12 on a 28pt or 16 on a 32pt halfling.

Finesse Build 32
Str 12 (6)
Dex 18 (10)

Str Build
Str 14 (10)
Dex 16 (6)
(You could go 16/10 but that seems pretty extreem on the dex end considering evasion and all that)

Now the STR guy dumps levels into STR and the Dex guy into dex and both use class/race for dex (ill round off the extra point from rogue 3 to favor STR builds)

Finnese
Str 12
Dex 26

Str Build
Str 18
Dex 20

Now Str guy gets a bonus feat. I'd use a marginal one like Weapon Focus for comparison. TWF is a given. Dex has to tome for Power attack, but Str has to tome for ITWF so that's a wash. There just arn't many other combat feats to pick from.

Str guy has +5 attack / +4 Damage main hand , +5 attack / +2 damage off hand
Dex guy has +8 attack / +1 damage main hand, +8 attack / +0 damage off hand

So its 15% to hit vs +2.5 damage (finesse guy also gets +3 reflex, +3 AC, +3 dex skills (generaly mean more than Str skills in DDO))

On a character delivering most of their damage via sneak attack and which doesn't have full BAB, I think accuracy matters quite a bit. It certianly does on my rogue. If your sneak is around 40pts average (lowish) and you take 15% of that you get 6pts, better than the difference in STR damage you gain. If you are in the zone where AC is no object, then it makes some sense. The finesse guy is also better able to use power attack due to the accuracy increase, probably letting them net more damage out of it.

On any other or any other class, I'd probably say STR has the advantage but not on a halfling rogue.

[Borror0]

As for the feats, WF???

C'mon. If you go TwF you've got to make TwF, OTwF, ITwF, Imp Crit and GTwF fit in. You've got one feat... I'd go for SF:UMD if I was you... and the Dex guy can't make PA fit in, unless he cuts on OTwF.

[sigtrent]

As for the feats, WF???

C'mon. If you go TwF you've got to make TwF, OTwF, ITwF, Imp Crit and GTwF fit in. You've got one feat... I'd go for SF:UMD if I was you... and the Dex guy can't make PA fit in, unless he cuts on OTwF.

I could see OTWF for the extra feat instead of WF. Its still not a lot of extra damage though.

[Shade]

A few things. I said that this isnt going to be a new player build, or an easy one to put together.

Thats kinda the issue.

Theres 2 good reasons to post builds, either to help new players by showing them a good build they can use or just to show what you yourself are planning and get feedback on it.

You write this as if it's a guide for other players - can tell that by the fact you don't list a clear feat for the fighter one yet suggest the players using the build select one.. Yet you include things that are just straight unrealistic for said players to get.

Either say the build is just your plan and it's here for feedback and don't write it as a guide, or clean it up so it is useful to new players.

That said, I think it will work for what your planning.

THF Dwarf rogues certainly will have there place to shine in mod7, as they do now in mod6. Allot will be said for the halfling rogue, but as you say nbhs - this builds plan is to grind out the shroud allot - and to do that effectlive on a rogue needs a certain level of hitpoints that dwarfs can easily get. Halflings can get enough hp to tank in shroud normal, but it takes allot of work and gear to get to that level to do it making the dwarven rogue much more attractive there.

I might build a dwarven rogue as well. Probably blunt spec way of the acrobat tho rather then assasin - halflings make the better asasins, thats clear. But unlike allot of posters are saying, 2handed fighting is great and not behind 2WF so its a good choice, even on a rogue.

[Shade]

C'mon. If you go TwF you've got to make TwF, OTwF, ITwF, Imp Crit and GTwF fit in. You've got one feat... I'd go for SF:UMD if I was you... and the Dex guy can't make PA fit in, unless he cuts on OTwF.

All the best dex based twf rogues i know on my server have power attack, its indisputable as required feat for anyone that wants to call themselves DPS. Or hell even non-dps type chars who just use wounding these days need it - gota get thru the DR to make it work.

Maxing your to-hit score is a mod1 thing borror, wake up.. It's mod6. Since the heavy nerf of monsters AC in mod3/4 there was never any need for taking every to-hit boosting feat.

So yea, welcome to mod6, drop otwf, use power attack and notice you still hit on a 2..

The only place you have a chance at missing is the hardest elite content in the game - and you know what you do with that content? take a warchanter to fix it.

[ghale]

All the best dex based twf rogues i know on my server have power attack, its indisputable as required feat for anyone that wants to call themselves DPS. Or hell even non-dps type chars who just use wounding these days need it - gota get thru the DR to make it work.

Maxing your to-hit score is a mod1 thing borror, wake up.. It's mod6. Since the heavy nerf of monsters AC in mod3/4 there was never any need for taking every to-hit boosting feat.

So yea, welcome to mod6, drop otwf, use power attack and notice you still hit on a 2..

The only place you have a chance at missing is the hardest elite content in the game - and you know what you do with that content? take a warchanter to fix it.

That only supports the str based argument even more as a Str-based rogue would gain even more DPS from PA than a dex build.

[ghale]

But unlike allot of posters are saying, 2handed fighting is great and not behind 2WF so its a good choice, even on a rogue.

On a rogue 2handed fighting is behind 2WF which is what people were saying. 2handed certainly is viable but to say it does more dps than 2wf on a rogue is inaccurate.

[Borror0]

Maxing your to-hit score is a mod1 thing borror, wake up.. It's mod6. Since the heavy nerf of monsters AC in mod3/4 there was never any need for taking every to-hit boosting feat.

I knew for a full BAB class or a warchanter, which are the class I played but I haven't played a rogue in end-game.

Sigtrent mentioned Acurracy percentage, so I assumed that a rogue could whiff from time to time...

[Borror0]

I could see OTWF for the extra feat instead of WF. Its still not a lot of extra damage though.

Yeah, but you're overlooking the damage a Green Steel shortsword does versus a heavier weapon, or even khopesh.
It's also a playstyle thing, for any one that zergs: Str > Dex.

[Accelerando]

Hmmm... well let's take a look.

Lets say you decide on the following stats (except dex and str)
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 08
Cha 12

I think that's pretty modest and about the usual for most rogues. Its costing 16pts leaving 12 on a 28pt or 16 on a 32pt halfling.

Finesse Build 32
Str 12 (6)
Dex 18 (10)

Str Build
Str 14 (10)
Dex 16 (6)
(You could go 16/10 but that seems pretty extreem on the dex end considering evasion and all that)

Now the STR guy dumps levels into STR and the Dex guy into dex and both use class/race for dex (ill round off the extra point from rogue 3 to favor STR builds)

Finnese
Str 12
Dex 26

Str Build
Str 18
Dex 20

Now Str guy gets a bonus feat. I'd use a marginal one like Weapon Focus for comparison. TWF is a given. Dex has to tome for Power attack, but Str has to tome for ITWF so that's a wash. There just arn't many other combat feats to pick from.

Str guy has +5 attack / +4 Damage main hand , +5 attack / +2 damage off hand
Dex guy has +8 attack / +1 damage main hand, +8 attack / +0 damage off hand

So its 15% to hit vs +2.5 damage (finesse guy also gets +3 reflex, +3 AC, +3 dex skills (generaly mean more than Str skills in DDO))

On a character delivering most of their damage via sneak attack and which doesn't have full BAB, I think accuracy matters quite a bit. It certianly does on my rogue. If your sneak is around 40pts average (lowish) and you take 15% of that you get 6pts, better than the difference in STR damage you gain. If you are in the zone where AC is no object, then it makes some sense. The finesse guy is also better able to use power attack due to the accuracy increase, probably letting them net more damage out of it.

On any other or any other class, I'd probably say STR has the advantage but not on a halfling rogue.

Look... all your speculation is cute, but if we are talking pure DPS, well your stats are just all wrong. I am not going to give you my build but I'm looking at a 30 str at 16 as well as an easily high enough dex for GTWF. No this is not a halfling, which is kind of the point I was making in the first place. Or perhaps that was another thread.

[LawstCawz]

Thats kinda the issue.

Theres 2 good reasons to post builds, either to help new players by showing them a good build they can use or just to show what you yourself are planning and get feedback on it.

You write this as if it's a guide for other players - can tell that by the fact you don't list a clear feat for the fighter one yet suggest the players using the build select one.. Yet you include things that are just straight unrealistic for said players to get.

Either say the build is just your plan and it's here for feedback and don't write it as a guide, or clean it up so it is useful to new players.

That said, I think it will work for what your planning.

THF Dwarf rogues certainly will have there place to shine in mod7, as they do now in mod6. Allot will be said for the halfling rogue, but as you say nbhs - this builds plan is to grind out the shroud allot - and to do that effectlive on a rogue needs a certain level of hitpoints that dwarfs can easily get. Halflings can get enough hp to tank in shroud normal, but it takes allot of work and gear to get to that level to do it making the dwarven rogue much more attractive there.

I might build a dwarven rogue as well. Probably blunt spec way of the acrobat tho rather then assasin - halflings make the better asasins, thats clear. But unlike allot of posters are saying, 2handed fighting is great and not behind 2WF so its a good choice, even on a rogue.

I will just say this then. A rog twf will be rolling 80% more sneak attack damage in a single chain, not to mention effects such as crippling strike and assassin posions. I know, you twitch, but thf is not nearly as effective with less str than a barbarian. For a rog, thf is so far behind in dps it's sickening. Pair with a tank who has good intimidation and treason, and mobs will be autocritting in no time.

[Gunga]

Look... all your speculation is cute, but if we are talking pure DPS, well your stats are just all wrong. I am not going to give you my build but I'm looking at a 30 str at 16 as well as an easily high enough dex for GTWF. No this is not a halfling, which is kind of the point I was making in the first place. Or perhaps that was another thread.

Just because you're maxing out strength doesn't mean his numbers are speculation...actually the numbers he offers look like logical progression based on fact. Just saying that you have max str therefore it must be great is speculative.

[LawstCawz]

Just because you're maxing out strength doesn't mean his numbers are speculation...actually the numbers he offers look like logical progression based on fact. Just saying that you have max str therefore it must be great is speculative.

Human 14rog/2ftr would be a useable 32 str maxed. He's far from "special" as he puts forth.

[Rameses]

reading this I can see both sides to the arguement. Mind you my Penitent Rogue is mostly Dex base.
But I am curious what qualifies a build as a Str vs. Dex build in your eyes?

The Penitent Rogue has a 20 Str and 30 Dex. I feel confident in saying it's a balanced build more so than favoring one over the other.

Plus it was mentioned by BorrorO - It's also a playstyle thing, for any one that zergs: Str > Dex.

I don't know if I agree 100% with this. I zerg, I've never not zerg'd. The would be said about teh rest of the people that I've run with that have Dex based builds.

So, what qualifies a build as a Str vs. Dex build in your eyes?

I am, Rameses!

[Borror0]

Plus it was mentioned by BorrorO - It's also a playstyle thing, for any one that zergs: Str > Dex.

I don't know if I agree 100% with this. I zerg, I've never not zerg'd. The would be said about teh rest of the people that I've run with that have Dex based builds.

It's only that in my many (many, many) attempts at making a successful rogue, you've prefered my Str builds over my Dex builds as I tend to run ahead in PuGs and then the extra DPS does a big difference. My PuGers cannot out-DPS even if you go one-handed... So, I guess I'll have to clarify "It's a playstyle thing, if you zerg a lot and do not play all in time in guld groups, Str > Dex." But again, that's also a personnal preference too, at the same time.