Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Impaqt]

Oh rly?

Ya Rly.

Check the Wiki for how much XP is available inthe explorer areas....

Ceuruleaon Hills, Waterworks, Searing Heights, Atraxia's, Tangleroot, SOrrowdusk, Desert, Orchard. Its a pretty insane amount.

[Cheg]

Ya Rly.

Check the Wiki for how much XP is available inthe explorer areas....

Ceuruleaon Hills, Waterworks, Searing Heights, Atraxia's, Tangleroot, SOrrowdusk, Desert, Orchard. Its a pretty insane amount.

Someone mentioned that. Currently it is impossible to get the required level 7 to enter ataraxia's haven, with only the previous explorer areas.

Waterworks, level 1-4. Total Exp - 5,757.
Cerulean Hills, level 1-4, Total Exp - 8,319.
Searing Heights, level 2-7, Total Exp - 16,414.
Tangleroot Gorge, level 2-7, Total Exp - 24,583.

Total Exp: 55,073. Required for level 4: 50,000.

Sorrowdusk Isle, level 4-11, Total Exp - 34,192.

Total Exp: 89265. Required for level 7 and Ataraxia's Haven: 200,000

Total possible from all explorer's - 676,446. 1,050,000 to level 15. 64%.

This stuff get's lost too easy...

[roggane]

I think what we are all missing here is that Dying should NOT be "Fun" It should not be used as a tactic. It should not be an acceptable way to get around something in the game.

We're just used to Dying meaning absolutely nothing. No other game has a system like that.

But if I remember right the main impetus put forward on changing the death system was that the death penalty created negative gaming experiences for people? According to the devs, death penalty now as it stands DOES hurt.

So feedback they have is that neg xp is bad and then this is supposed to fix it?

[Catica]

I think what we are all missing here is that Dying should NOT be "Fun" It should not be used as a tactic. It should not be an acceptable way to get around something in the game.

We're just used to Dying meaning absolutely nothing. No other game has a system like that.

0.o Every game I have ever played the ONLY penalty you got from dying was negative experience, and I have used dying as a tactic in other games besides this one. Negative experience has never hurt my gameplay nor bothered me. This new system bothers me ALOT and severly takes away from my gameplay enjoyment!

[Impaqt]

[QUOTE=roggane;1475385][QUOTE=Impaqt;1474886]I think what we are all missing here is that Dying should NOT be "Fun" It should not be used as a tactic. It should not be an acceptable way to get around something in the game.

We're just used to Dying meaning absolutely nothing. No other game has a system like that.

But if I remember right the main impetus put forward on changing the death system was that the death penalty created negative gaming experiences for people? According to the devs, death penalty now as it stands DOES hurt.

So feedback they have is that neg xp is bad and then this is supposed to fix it?

OK, let me rephrase.....


For the Metagamer..... THe Powergamer who caps his character in a week, the Death penelty means nothing. FOr the Casual gamer in the mid levels, it is indeed a hit.

Everyone know the metagamers make this game go round. We set the economy, we figure out the quests before the casula gamers, our goal is to beat the game.

This Type penalty actually imposes some sort of drawback to those metagamers without Getting to harsh on the casual gamer.

The Damage to items thing really needs to be refined a bit.... But overall I think its a great concept.

This wont stop me from /Deathing to get back to a tavern quicker though. Unless I alrady had a few deaths in the quest already. I'd rather pay the repair bill as I'm not one to worry much about perm damage.

[Borror0]

Interesting idea.

Happy to hear that, would make figuring out a raid much less painful.

[SneakThief]

I'm curious what you think about my "Reduced or no item damage while getting your First Time bonus" idea. It would at least reduce/remove the item damage you'd take while trying to figure a quest out (as you continue to receive the bonus until the first time you successfully complete the quest).

I love it ...

[Baron]

I have read all 400 plus posts and these are my conclusions without rehashing out the minutia.

1. Someone at Turbine has decide to implement a system to rapidly flush out most of the accumulated good loot people have collected over the past year or so and stop those same people from sharing the same non-binding gear among their characters and guild members. You can call it what you want, that’s what one set of the changes are for, anyone care to disagree? Fine, I could care less, you will lose some players but not that many.

2. The second effect of the changes is to make dying more painful and there are some pretty vocal folks who got their way here. Turbine will find out that that was a minority view when this system hits the production servers and characters start their spiral of death as the first death makes the second easier and the third makes the forth even more easy and equipment breaks and people start getting ****ed off at each other and then they realize this game is not fun to play anymore. A billing cycle after that it will be too late.

3. Mornlands and Risa – Anyone care to count how many major malfunctions have gotten past Risa because its current population on most days is under 12 and half of that 12 are under 12? Mornlands is pathos in action. I really hope no one takes serious anything a tester on Mornlands says if it is outside software bugs. Someone in management needs to be reminded that people come to have fun. Does ANYONE think this is going to be fun?



4. The current death penalty system of experience loss works for all but two groups:

a. The very casual gamer or very new gamer who dies a lot but does not to get to play often but xp is gained for them when they are logged out and this rate could be adjusted if necessary without ****ing off everyone else.

b. The “Let’s make this as close to real life as possible because I want to feel virtual gritty group” Nothing Turbine does except deletion of characters upon death is going to make them happy. I, as a 22 year combat vet suggest if you are in this group and are between age 18 and 46 go see your nearest army recruiter. Experience the joys of combat and death in a way Turbine cannot provide and leave the rest of us to a game that does not remind us of real life.

5. The “Let’s try this and see if it puts us out of business approach” This is supposed to be a game to enjoy, does ANYONE at turbine remember that? You are going to lose hundreds if not thousands of customers with this 5 phase aggravation of players who paid good money to have a good time. I cannot remember the last time Turbine has proposed a system that will cause as much party angst as this one.

6. Last, the most deadly dungeon is NOT the Ciper, it is the ABBOT. Or is the database not recording the deaths there?

[Impaqt]

I dont know what games peole are playing outside of DDO.. Or what games they played inthe past.... Might help to review some of the penalties in other games of our Genre'.

Heres WoW's
http://www.blizzard.com/wow/townhall/death.shtml

I can find some detail on other games if you like....

[roggane]

[QUOTE=Impaqt;1475404][QUOTE=roggane;1475385]

I think what we are all missing here is that Dying should NOT be "Fun" It should not be used as a tactic. It should not be an acceptable way to get around something in the game.

We're just used to Dying meaning absolutely nothing. No other game has a system like that.

OK, let me rephrase.....


For the Metagamer..... THe Powergamer who caps his character in a week, the Death penelty means nothing. FOr the Casual gamer in the mid levels, it is indeed a hit.

Everyone know the metagamers make this game go round. We set the economy, we figure out the quests before the casula gamers, our goal is to beat the game.

This Type penalty actually imposes some sort of drawback to those metagamers without Getting to harsh on the casual gamer.

The Damage to items thing really needs to be refined a bit.... But overall I think its a great concept.

This wont stop me from /Deathing to get back to a tavern quicker though. Unless I alrady had a few deaths in the quest already. I'd rather pay the repair bill as I'm not one to worry much about perm damage.

Exactly, and the metagamers are gonna be the ones most upset with this new system. So, hinder the metagamers who drive the game....sounds kinda backwards to me.

Basically, this caters to the casual gamers who can't quest as much to get rid of xp debt, hence all the negative feedback they have for the xp penalty. If that's the case, why not just up the neg xp regeneration while logged out???

[GrayOldDruid]

I think one thing people have failed to mention (and I may have missed it) is that things like rings and amulets will deteriorate faster than say weapons and armor. Because it's a fixed 10% damage and item HPs are not created equal, these things will deteriorate unfairly in a sense. An amulet with 60 HPs will deteriorate as a percentage of its life way faster than the Sword of Shadows with 180. Is this intended, Eladrin?

That makes no sense whatsoever. 10% of 60 is 6, 10% of 180 is 18 - both will require 10 hits of 10% to deteriorate. It is not 10 points of damage, its 10 Percent. Same rate. Or am I missing what you're getting at??

[totmacher]

I'm talking about points of permanent damage.

If you accrue one point of permanent damage every time you repair, rings and amulets will deteriorate faster than swords and armor because they have less hitpoints. If you give 10% to everything, then it will accrue damage faster as opposed to the current damage system which is something like: lookup table of percentage as to where it hits (70% armor, 10% sword, 20% other items) -> assign damage.

[arminius]

1. Clerics will be the recipients of hysterical tirades, resulting in fewer people wanting to roll clerics or play clerics outside of guild groups.

2. The auction house will become depopulated, because a significant number of people with only one copy of a cool item will bind it and no longer be able to sell it when it becomes obsolete, and those with a duplicate or similar item will not sell it, because they'll hold onto it for "backup in case the main one breaks." As a result, the majority of AH items remaining will be those that should have been brokered, except for an occasional very rare good item that will be listed for an astronomical buyout, because it can be.

I'm really surprised that I've seen many people on this thread claim that if you bind your items and can no longer pass them to your lowbies, it isn't that big a deal because Everything Can Be Bought on the Auction House. Silly, isn't it? Here's a clue: The items on the Auction House come from somewhere. That somewhere is the same subset of people you belong to; yes you, who just decided to bind his own items to save them.

3. PUGs will grow fewer and fewer, especially on any mod's current content.

4. "Learning" will slow tremendously. "Pathfinders" will be far more hesitant to leap into new content blind on the first night. When they do, they will do so only with the most trusted guildies. Once a quest is solved by the pathfinders, the pathfinders will continue to not trust PUGs, and will therefore continue to run with guildies only. As a result, the knowledge of how to do certain things won't escape the guild to reach the general population, and won't even reach other predominant guilds. This could severely hamper the average player's desire to do any newish quest, because the risks are to high to walk in blind. Some might see this as a benefit, but I don't. I know that a lot of people will just stop playing if it comes to that. One could say, good, serves em right for being followers. But I don't think a game with the population of ours can afford to be that snobby.

5. Rerolling will slow tremendously, as will rolling new lowbie builds. I am interested in a playing a caster. After my experiences with Clericing, I wouldn't dream of doing it without the hightest greater and superior potency items available to any given level. If those items became bound to such an extent that they couldn't be passed down, and pulled out of the AH to the extent that purchasing them became impossible, I wouldn't have any incentive at all to make the caster. I'd just skip it, because it just isn't worth the hassle. Now, times that attitude by thousands of players, and watch the lifeblood of the game (new characters) slowly drip away.

All of this will combine to make the game tougher. That can be a good thing to some extent, after all if we wanted easy we'd be playing WoW. But there is a line where "tougher" is going to equal "not fun" to more and more people. A lot of people play MMOs because every day life is really tough already, and they want an escape. Games shouldn't feel like homework, or a second job. I just worry that this development may cross that line.

_

[ccheath776]

It's a much nicer curve than that, with the exception of Dreams of Insanity (which has more than twice the average number of deaths as the second deadliest quest... Tempest's Spine.)


Interesting idea.


Curious fact of the day: You can get a significant amount of the way to the cap without stepping into a single dungeon other than the two Old Sully's Grog quests, if you enjoy landscapes.

That is actually true isn't it.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

I was out running in the desert last night with a guildie who brought up a concern.

*snip*At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability,*snip*

For a capped character 10 deaths = broken/unusable gear.
It was his concern that in a bad quest, where death is unavoidable this could be a major problem.
Even game breaking for him.

As I was thinking about it this morning...it is less than 10.

As we quest our gear gets worn.
We hit the wrong creature with the wrong weapon it takes damage.
We get hit hard enough by the right thing our stuff gets damaged.
Many of my favorite items have permanant damage already.

If the % damage is based on the "original maximum durability" then stuff with 50% permanent damage would be unusable in 5 deaths.

I am ok with change. I like new challenges.
I would be happier if the damage would be based on the current durability...
You know that riddle about if each time you move you cover half the distance to your destination you will never get there?
lol.
If each time the death damage taken was 10% of the remaining durability, I would be so happy.

[Impaqt]

[QUOTE=roggane;1475440][QUOTE=Impaqt;1475404]

Exactly, and the metagamers are gonna be the ones most upset with this new system. So, hinder the metagamers who drive the game....sounds kinda backwards to me.

Basically, this caters to the casual gamers who can't quest as much to get rid of xp debt, hence all the negative feedback they have for the xp penalty. If that's the case, why not just up the neg xp regeneration while logged out???

Hmmm.. Dont think so.... The Item wear is my Sticking point. 10% Per death is too extreme and I fully beleive this will be modified before the cahnge goes live. If we can use our repair skill to fix up our own items, Then perhaps it wont be so bad...... With the reduction in items taking permanent damage, I'd have to experience the system before I can say for sure.... But I'm willing to wait till I see the system in action on Risia before condeming the idea entirely.

[Eladrin]

I dont know what games peole are playing outside of DDO.. Or what games they played inthe past.... Might help to review some of the penalties in other games of our Genre'.

Heres WoW's
http://www.blizzard.com/wow/townhall/death.shtml

I can find some detail on other games if you like....

That's interesting, the page you linked to is incomplete... This page includes all of their death effects - over there you also take 10% damage to all equipped items when you die, and all objects in your entire inventory lose 25% if you use a Spirit Healer instead of running back to your body.

There was quite a bit of research done before we selected these penalties.

[Cheg]

180 - 162 - 145.8 - 131.22 - 118.098 - 106.2882 - 95.65938 - 86.093442 - 77.4840978 - 69.73568802
60 - 54 - 48.6 - 43.74 - 39.366 - 35.4294 - 31.88646 - 28.697814 - 25.8280326 - 23.24522934

Both are down to 34% of their original values.

[Kerrn_Siff]

I have the feeling the there is more to this than trying to help with the perma damage items take and the neg feelings it creates. If the dev's were truely concerned about this they would just wipe out damage to items.

From reading between the lines the part that says At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% also backs up my thoughts that the devs could care less about the negative impact item damage has on its player base. (For those who didn't understand that line it means you die all your stuff gets hurt. EVERYTHIGN YOU WEAR>>>>ect BOUND ITEMS>

Which leads me to my last point.

The REAL reason logic says that this is to be implemented is to tie down lootz to one toon. They want us to bind all our gear. This way we can't trade sell or pass it on when we are done with it.....we have to pawn it or destroy it. This might be inresponce to the econmey or just poor future sight by the devs.

I for one oppose this change. I will now have high repair bills on my cleric and other non combat toons. I will not be binding many items so I am sure even if they 1/2 the perma damage rate...that I will be getting way more perma damage to my items because I die alot.

I hope folks jump on the band wagon to help block this nonsence.

DEV's if you really feel that damage makes folks upset...which it does...TAKE OUT PERMA DAMAGE altogether...and be done with it.


Thanks very much...excuse the spelling if you would..

Perm damage has never mattered on any of my toons and I've been playing since release (well a few weeks after release, which some of my founder friends enjoy pointing out all the time.) I agree with the quoted above, this is an attempt to control portions of the economy and to inhibit twinking.

As for the death penalty.. why bother using resources on such a minor aspect of the game that won't change anyone's play style or game experience in the end? seriously...

[Impaqt]

I was out running in the desert last night with a guildie who brought up a concern.

For a capped character 10 deaths = broken/unusable gear.
It was his concern that in a bad quest, where death is unavoidable this could be a major problem.

Exactly what quest provides Unavoidable death?

Maybe the ABbot..... WHenthe server lags for a few seconds and you end up plumeting to your death.... But quite frankly, I dont run it and cant see myself running it in the near future.....

Every other quest, your life is pretty much in your own hands. I fyou choose not to be self sufficient and you die.. Well, more times thannot, thats on you. Not the game..... Not the Quest....


This change, as it sits, will utterly destroy the abbot raid..... No one will want to go in there. I think thats a good thing.