Official Vanguard Feedback Thread

[FuzzyDuck81]

Not sure if it's been asked/answered already... but does IC:bludgeon work on shields at the moment, or will it be added with this too?

[Ausdoerrt]

Hold down your mouse to attack. Each time you attack with your main hand weapon, even while moving, you have a chance to also do a shield bash attack. The higher your percent chance, the more likely you are to get a free shield bash with each attack. The caveat is when you shield bash you will not get another one for at least one second.

Improved Shield Bash already does this on live, but the chance is so small and it doesn't work on live while moving so most players probably wouldn't notice it.

Sev~

Actually, the chance isn't so small if you have equipment and enhancements to back it up. My EK/pally gets a free bash every ~1.5 seconds on average (20% ISB, 20% shield item, 15% EK enhancements). Have I read it correctly that this will now work while moving? Or is that only for Vanguard enhancements?

Also, any idea if the 1 second limit will ever be removed?

[FuzzyDuck81]

Actually, the chance isn't so small if you have equipment and enhancements to back it up. My EK/pally gets a free bash every ~1.5 seconds on average (20% ISB, 20% shield item, 15% EK enhancements). Have I read it correctly that this will now work while moving? Or is that only for Vanguard enhancements?

Also, any idea if the 1 second limit will ever be removed?

Looks like just "secondary shield bashes work while moving", don't think it's limited to vanguards at all so that's nice.. and as i understand it, the time limit is to do with how the animations work & presumably things would go screwy otherwise... i like them too & they add a decent amount of dps already, but then I'm more of the "stop, kill it, move on" approach than constantly kiting them as i fight.

[bloodnose13]

removed from list what i consider ok as is:
1 AP: To the Fore: While you have a shield equipped, gain +1 to hit and damage with your main hand weapon and with your shield bash attacks. <bit underwhelming, if possible would be nice for shield bash bonus to start here, to make it easier to get for defenders>


Tier One (0 AP Required)
No Weakness: +1/+2/+3 Fortitude Saving Throw. Passive <seems pointless, but maybe someone would want to burn points on it, when tehre is a defender tree where save boosts are>
Unbalancing Shove: When you shield bash, damaged enemies get -1 to Saving Throws for 2/4/6 seconds. <-1 saves is exactly nothing at any level, as useful as -1 penatly given by prayer spell, if it was stacking 6 times now this would be more interesting but then it would have to go higher in tree>
Shield Smash: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Melee attack with your shield for +1/2/3(W) damage. On damage, your PRR and MRR are increased by 2/4/6 for 12 seconds. Cooldown is 16/12/8 seconds. <seems like something that should be in defender tree not in vanguard, becouse vanguard is for dps not defence, dont make mess in those neatly clear trees please>
Armor Training: +1/2/3 to Balance, Intimidate, Jump. Reduce skills penalties for armor and shield by 1/2/3. Passive <same should be in defender tree, vanguard is supposed to be dps not aggroing enemies>

Tier Two (5 AP Required)

Tier Three
Follow Up: When you hit an enemy with certain activated stunning abilities (Stunning Blow, Stunning Shield) your melee power is increased by 3/6/9 for 12 seconds whether the stun works or not. <so a fighter has it stacked way better than paladin since has way more feat choices and will be able to have both stunning blow and stunning shield and keep this bonus on nearly all the time? weird mechanic either way>
Shield Riposte: When missed in melee while wearing a shield: Deals 1d4/1d6/1d8 bludgeoning damage to your attacker. Scales with melee power. <again a thing that should be in defender tree, as a toggle, instead harbored by light, as a toggle so it can be disabled when not needed, misses happen way more than actual turtleing up to get light damage proc>

Tier Four
(NOTE: Shield Charge is not currently working on Lamannia): Shield Charge: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Rush forward up to 30 feet to your selected opponent and deliver a shield attack that hits everything in a around you. Each opponent is knocked down and takes a shield bash attack for +1/2/3[W] damage. The saving throw for the knockdown attack is 20 + Highest Attribute Mod + Class Level + bonuses to trip attacks. Ranks improve cooldown <yet again, defender ability, just without +w bonus, should be a tool for geting free from being surrounded, or for clearing path, it will create weird situation where vanguards will use this for dps, cant wait to see characters use this on bosses in raids, zooming around...... awsome>
Shield block 5/8/30 <i tihnk it should be smaller but dodge bonus, otherwise whats the point of geting ac enchancements when its possible to get 30% miss chance just like that, its just too much>

Tier Five
Shield Rush: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Move forward in a line, delivering a shield bash attack to every creature hit. This shield bash does +2/4/6[W] damage. Rank improves cooldown <first one is better, and again no +w bonus, stop the weirdness>

[Ausdoerrt]

Looks like just "secondary shield bashes work while moving", don't think it's limited to vanguards at all so that's nice.. and as i understand it, the time limit is to do with how the animations work & presumably things would go screwy otherwise... i like them too & they add a decent amount of dps already, but then I'm more of the "stop, kill it, move on" approach than constantly kiting them as i fight.

I didn't expect them to remove the 1-second limit NOW, just hoping to hear an official statement on its future.

Good news regardless. While I also don't usually kite on melee, you do still need to move around a lot, be it for avoiding certain attacks or chase moving enemies/bosses. This will help a lot with the DPS.

I suppose we'll have to figure out exactly how much +% bash is enough to max out the 1/second limit, because as it stands I suspect it'd be possible to waste APs without improving the bash chance:

30% Vanguard cores
10% Vanguard T5
15% EK T4
20% ISB feat
20% shield effect

Unless I'm missing something, that's a maximum 95% obtainable shield bash proc. Since attack speed, especially with bonuses and haste, is significantly faster than 1 hit/second, that'd be a lot of wasted bash chance. Even without the EK bonus, 80% seems like it may be too much? Perhaps the "extra" chance should translate to shield doublestrike chance...

Also wondering, for all the "procs on shield bash" abilities, does that work on passive bashing, or only on active bashing?

[Vargouille]

Also wondering, for all the "procs on shield bash" abilities, does that work on passive bashing, or only on active bashing?

These are all intended to work on passive secondary shield bashes, and that's where we expect most of them to happen in practical gameplay.

We're trying to avoid Vanguard gameplay where you must spend a lot of time actively blocking and not moving.

[Seikojin]

These are all intended to work on passive secondary shield bashes, and that's where we expect most of them to happen in practical gameplay.

We're trying to avoid Vanguard gameplay where you must spend a lot of time actively blocking and not moving.

Wouldn't it be cool if one of the vanguards abilities was to walk while blocking?

[PermaBanned]

Wouldn't it be cool if one of the vanguards abilities was to walk while blocking?

That could be tremendously cool - at least thematically even if not functionally. I'ld imaging a speed reduction ~similar to (unenhanced) Sneaking, but I mean come on man! Who hasn't seen those adventurers in the movies cautiously advancing through a corridor or into a room, peering out from behind their raised shield?

[ArcaneArcher52689]

I didn't expect them to remove the 1-second limit NOW, just hoping to hear an official statement on its future.

Good news regardless. While I also don't usually kite on melee, you do still need to move around a lot, be it for avoiding certain attacks or chase moving enemies/bosses. This will help a lot with the DPS.

I suppose we'll have to figure out exactly how much +% bash is enough to max out the 1/second limit, because as it stands I suspect it'd be possible to waste APs without improving the bash chance:

30% Vanguard cores
10% Vanguard T5
15% EK T4
20% ISB feat
20% shield effect

Unless I'm missing something, that's a maximum 95% obtainable shield bash proc. Since attack speed, especially with bonuses and haste, is significantly faster than 1 hit/second, that'd be a lot of wasted bash chance. Even without the EK bonus, 80% seems like it may be too much? Perhaps the "extra" chance should translate to shield doublestrike chance...

Also wondering, for all the "procs on shield bash" abilities, does that work on passive bashing, or only on active bashing?

Okay, so I just ran some approximations with a computer.
Assuming 3 attacks per second,with a minimum downtime of 2 attacks per bash, we get the following:

Proc% bashes uptime(aka how many bashes you will make)
0% 0-it's a duh,but i included it in the program
10% 25%
20% 42%
30% 55%
40% 66%
50% 75%
60% 82%
70% 87%
80% 92%
90% 96%
100% 100%

Another way to look at it:

Out of the maximum 60 shield bashes you can make in a minute, you'd make
10% 15 bashes
20% 25 bashes
30% 33 bashes
40% 40 bashes
50% 45 bashes
60% 49 bashes
70% 52 bashes
80% 55 bashes
90% 58 bashes
100% 60 bashes

So, to me it looks like it's reasonable to go after shield bashing % up to a certain point. I'd say probably around 60% before the additional costs outweigh the benefit

[Vargouille]

Actually, the chance isn't so small if you have equipment and enhancements to back it up. My EK/pally gets a free bash every ~1.5 seconds on average (20% ISB, 20% shield item, 15% EK enhancements). Have I read it correctly that this will now work while moving? Or is that only for Vanguard enhancements?

Shield Bashing should work while moving for everyone (and should show up as such on Lamannia, when that's open).

[Seikojin]

Shield Bashing should work while moving for everyone (and should show up as such on Lamannia, when that's open).

It does happen while not shield blocking and is nice, similar to offhand attacks and the frequency is pretty often. Now if only skirmisher and something in destiny to make it equal offhand twf's proc rate... LOL

[Nightmanis]

It does happen while not shield blocking and is nice, similar to offhand attacks and the frequency is pretty often. Now if only skirmisher and something in destiny to make it equal offhand twf's proc rate... LOL

Perfect Shield Training: 10% shield doublestrike.

Which, this now begs the question of if offhand doublestrike actually works on a shield. I seriously doubt it, but who wants to make a pure tempest and try it?

[Thar]

These are all intended to work on passive secondary shield bashes, and that's where we expect most of them to happen in practical gameplay.

We're trying to avoid Vanguard gameplay where you must spend a lot of time actively blocking and not moving.

Why does that Defender ability have to be actively blocking?

[Thar]

Shield Bashing should work while moving for everyone (and should show up as such on Lamannia, when that's open).

Even with silver linings small shield?

[Dagolar]

Wouldn't it be cool if one of the vanguards abilities was to walk while blocking?

Sounds good to me!

That could be tremendously cool - at least thematically even if not functionally. I'ld imaging a speed reduction ~similar to (unenhanced) Sneaking, but I mean come on man! Who hasn't seen those adventurers in the movies cautiously advancing through a corridor or into a room, peering out from behind their raised shield?

Higher speed penalty moving backward/sideways.

Once you unlock improved tumble effects, they could reduce the speed penalty.

EG, if you have tumble 31, you'd normally be able to do backflips and sideflips. This instead removes the extra speed penalty.

Once you unlock forward tumble, you can move forward at normal movement speed [back and side still at 75% or so].

[My2Cents]

These are all intended to work on passive secondary shield bashes, and that's where we expect most of them to happen in practical gameplay.

We're trying to avoid Vanguard gameplay where you must spend a lot of time actively blocking and not moving.

I'm really glad to hear this - this was one of my biggest worries about vanguard. I really didn't want to spend all my time standing still and switching between attacking and bashing.so glad you chose the way you did.

A thousand thanks.....

[Ausdoerrt]

Wouldn't it be cool if one of the vanguards abilities was to walk while blocking?

Yes. Yes, it would.

Shield Bashing should work while moving for everyone (and should show up as such on Lamannia, when that's open).

Great improvement, thank you.

Okay, so I just ran some approximations with a computer.
Assuming 3 attacks per second,with a minimum downtime of 2 attacks per bash, we get the following:

Proc% bashes uptime(aka how many bashes you will make)
0% 0-it's a duh,but i included it in the program
10% 25%
20% 42%
30% 55%
40% 66%
50% 75%
60% 82%
70% 87%
80% 92%
90% 96%
100% 100%

Another way to look at it:

Out of the maximum 60 shield bashes you can make in a minute, you'd make
10% 15 bashes
20% 25 bashes
30% 33 bashes
40% 40 bashes
50% 45 bashes
60% 49 bashes
70% 52 bashes
80% 55 bashes
90% 58 bashes
100% 60 bashes

So, to me it looks like it's reasonable to go after shield bashing % up to a certain point. I'd say probably around 60% before the additional costs outweigh the benefit

Thanks so much for running this and confirming my hunch. I would settle at around 70-80%.

[Scrabbler]

Alright! Comments on the Vanguard tree, from u23 Fourth Look.

General stuff (you've seen before, so not going into detail)

• Adding a new melee tree before finishing existing melee trees is bad.
• Adding a new tree before deeply analyzing existing trees is bad.
• A Shield-DPS tree is bad (it gets too far from the concept of what a "shield" is, which is a protective device).
• A class having 2 DPS trees but one of them being shield-only is bad; it causes the bizarre situation where an offensive pure-class Fighter/Paladin (and non-Harper) who is TWF or THF will have better defense than one that is S&B. It also possibly causes the bad situation where THF pure Paladins do less damage than S&B ones.

Newer Comments

• It is bad to give a class (Fighter) a new DPS tree (Vanguard) without first finishing the existing DPS tree (Kensei). (If you think Kensei is finished, then ask if Deadly Strike is a worthy t5 attack, and where are the multiselector choices for One With The Blade- the ones that benefit people without Monk levels)
  
  
• It's bad to put so much of S&B combat potential into a single enhancement tree, instead of in feats and the basic item behavior. Having it all in the Vanguard tree means that S&B combat is ineffective for several classes that are supposed to be successful at it, meaning Cleric, Favored Soul, non-animal Druid, Barbarian, and maybe Wiz/Sor.
  
  
• If using Shields as a main offensive weapon is meant to be supported, then things like a +5 Flaming Heavy Shield of Ribcracking should appear in random treasure.
  
  
• If Shields are meant to be supported as a main offensive weapon, they should have a way to get Improved Critical. However, the obvious approach of adding them into Imp Crit Bludgeon might not be the best response, as it would give S&B builds an undesired push to use Warhammers as their weapon. As an alternative, you might add Shields to the other melee Imp Crit feats as well, or you could put Shield Imp Crit into the Vanguard tree (maybe replacing Fatal Bulwark)

Funny Suggestion that Actually Makes Sense

• Currently Fighter has 1 general DPS tree and one style-specific DPS tree that's shared with Paladin. You could allow Fighter to share the Ranger Tempest tree, and then create a new THF tree shared between Fighter and Barbarian. See all that symmetry?? (Features which upgrade Evasion to Improved wouldn't work, or would get a multiselector alternative)

[Scrabbler]

Specific Vanguard comments

Shield Charge + Shield Rush

• The animation isn't really acceptable. You get a glowing energy shield, run your feet in place for a second, then warp 15 yards ahead. It would be much better as a continual motion... Abundant Step doesn't have it this bad. (To fix it, you might need the client to display the movement changes before the server confirms that the special attack happens, which may be tricky programming)
• Standing still after a Shield Charge, my character automatically rotates to follow the movement of the targeted enemy, wherever it goes.
• The kind of combat that happens in DDO isn't really conducive to targeting a monster and then launching your body towards him as a projectile. Maybe if the animations were smoother that would work better? Maybe not.

Stunning Shield

• The release notes say cooldown 30, but the cooldown is 12. (Which is 3 lower than for Stunning Blow) This is a big deal!
• Missing the spinning lights animation over the monster's head.
• The description for the debuff status is incorrect, and instead copies the active feat text. Also, it would be nicer if instead of a custom debuff status there was a standard "Stunned" status used.
  
  
• Oh boy, oh no, look at those DCs. No don't do that.
• Reminder: Stunning Blow cd 15 dc str, Stunning Fist cd 6 dc lev/2+wis, Stun Shield cd 12 dc lev+(str or wis).
• Hopefully I don't have to spell out why it's bad that high-level Stunning Shield has a DC 28 above Stunning Blow and over 14 above Stunning Fist (because Str goes higher than Wis). An epic monster which fails Stunning Shield on a 19 will pass Stunning Blow on a 2. Unless there's a really good reason (like drastically different costs to train or costs to activate), no active attacks with a similar result should scale that differently. Honestly all 3 of them should scale with level the same.
• If the idea of giving Stunning Shield twice the level DC as Stunning Fist is that it deserves a higher DC because of longer cooldown or other drawback, that's fine. But the way to implement that would be with a constant bonus to save DC, such as +3 or whatever, not by having the DC go further and further ahead the more you level up.

Unbalancing Shove

• Well, the penalty is a very small effect, and it can't work in the specific time you most want it to (when you start a battle with a Stun attempt). Using Shield Bash as a prelude to your opening Stun isn't worth it, because the chance the monster will walk away outweighs the little +1. So the only reason to take Unbalancing Shove would be to spend AP to get into tier2... but there's more than enough generally good stuff in tier1 to get there.
• Maybe Unbalancing Shove should be changed so that the debuff applies on-missed (with Shield) instead of on-bash.

To The Fore

• The description is written with excessive length. The portion "with your main hand weapon and with your shield bash attacks" conveys no information and can be dropped.

Shield Smash

• Not a big deal, but it scales too steeply. Shouldn't scale the buff's bonus AND cooldown at the same time; pick one or the other.
• Getting the words "Shield Smash" on the middle of the screen each time I click this icon is irritating and unhelpful.
• Very hard to tell if clicking Shield Smash is worth it, or if the lost mainhand attacks will outweigh the benefit. I'm leaning towards thinking they outweigh it (although of course it depends on your build+gear). As a way to ensure clicking Shield Smash is never worse than a regular attack, you could have it do a mainhand attack alongside the bash...?

Follow Up

• The description needs to be more precise about what triggers it. "such as" isn't enough. (Alternatively it could be less precise)
• Because Stunning Shield has a much better cooldown than in the release notes, Follow Up is much stronger than it appears. You can have over 95% uptime on the +9 Melee power (which is better than KOTC tier5, among other things).
• It's odd, but even when fighting skeletons or an unstunnable raid boss, a Vanguard build needs to be clicking Stunning Shield every 12 seconds for the melee power. I am seriously annoyed by having to push a button repeatedly throughout all combat, just to maintain something that has no decisions to make about it.
• I haven't analyzed if the time taken for the Stunning Shield attack lowers your DPS enough to outweigh the Meleepower gained. Maybe!

Missile Shield

• The antirequisite with Tempest Deflect Arrows is not needed, since the two features require disjoint equipment choices to function (TWF or S&B). In the event that a player feels like spending the AP to get both enhancements, let him.

Shield Riposte

• What would be nicer is that instead of immediate damage, you get a +X% bonus on bash proc rate for your next single attack. Of course that would depend upon removing the 1 second cooldown for passive bash.
  As-is, this enhancement is high on my to-skip list.

Shield Champion

• Funny that this stun uses Strength modifier, while other stuns in this tree use your highest ability mod. As a matter of descriptive style, I'd prefer if those other abilities were limited more... it's just weird to see this tree supporting Str, Int, Cha, Con, Dex DCs, when nothing else in the game is like that.
• If this stun attempt can activate Follow Up, that should be mentioned.

[Scrabbler]

The numbers needed to make Shield Bashes really good with a one second cooldown is just math.
...
The goal is that your shield bashes should be "hitting like a truck" albeit in slower chunks.

Yes, making Shield Bashes really good could could be accomplished with math, but that kind of math hasn't been put in this tree, and it would be difficult to cleanly do so.


The concept of making passive Shield Bashes do heavier damage to compensate for their slow rate is at best "risky". There's a big underlying problem, which is that this slower attack form will have trouble scaling with all those tons of effects that add damage to every hit, from Power Attack to Shock to Inspire Courage and all the way to Mortal Fear. Allowing shield bash procs to scale up accordingly when you upgrade your gear+bonuses is quite important for gameplay. It's much easier and safer to design if bash procs have no internal cooldown, and simply trigger on some percentage of your normal attacks (albeit well under 95%).

Additional problems with the cooldown are how the value of additional bash chance goes down the closer you are to filling in the cooldown, and how temporary effects like Haste Boost give less benefit to bash chance.


Let's review the design history:

• Someone adds a passive bash chance to Imp Shield Bash, which was needed because active shield bashing was a loser's choice.
• Someone decides to add a special animation when that passive bash happens, because of unknown reasons. Offhand procs and doublestrike didn't have their own animations- not even a sound effect or log icon- but passive bash got a whole animation on your body.
• At high attack speeds, someone doing passive shield bash looks "goofy" (the most generous way to put it), so passive bash gets a 1 second cooldown to prevent the animation from firing too often.
• Now Vanguard is being added, which has a strong reliance on shield bashes. To compensate for the 1 second cooldown (which makes bashes happen much slower than normal attacks), the designer tries adding a bunch of bonus +W and crit profile onto shield bashes.

And here's one more problem: The 1 second cooldown isn't even sufficient to prevent a bad-looking animation! When you have a high speed attack animation and a fairly-high bash proc, it still looks quite bad.


The simpler and better alternative:

• Remove the special animation from a passive shield bash attempt. (The animation can be used in Stunning Shield or other active attacks, which naturally have a multi-second cooldown)
• Remove the 1 second cooldown on passive shield bashes.
• Remove some of the extra shield +W in Vanguard.
• Lower most sources of Shield Bash chance to around half of what they are now, so that a maxxed Vanguard build has maybe 40-50% bash proc, which is half the offhand proc of a TWF build.
• Give Bashing magic items some additional Bash chance which doesn't stack with Vanguard enhancements (with the goal of them helping non-specialists bash a little, while Vanguard builds have the freedom to bash well without relying on those particular items).

Since this mechanic is completely new one of our issues is that players probably don't have any kind of feeling about what numbers should be to provide a satisfying DPS experience.

Not exactly new, not in the sense of "slower attacks but super-high damage". The Wood Woad form of Nature's Avatar ED tried that, and as we can recall there were multiple serious problems.