Casual Clogue

[Kinerd]

Hello!

I've been gone for about a thousand years and I'm looking to get very casually back into DDO, so I'm looking to make a character that can perform cleric tasks while being good at trapping in heroic levels. The basic outline is drow 18clr 2rog. The enhancement system is all new to me so I'm eager for pointers there and I'm not married to the feats either besides Animal domain which seems tailor made for this.

Any input would be appreciated!

clogue
18/2 Cleric/Rogue
True Neutral Drow


Level Order

1. Rogue . . . . . 6. Cleric. . . . .11. Cleric. . . . .16. Cleric
2. Cleric . . . . .7. Cleric . . . . 12. Cleric . . . . 17. Cleric
3. Cleric . . . . .8. Cleric . . . . 13. Cleric . . . . 18. Cleric
4. Cleric . . . . .9. Rogue . . . . .14. Cleric. . . . .19. Cleric
5. Cleric . . . . 10. Cleric . . . . 15. Cleric . . . . 20. Cleric


Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . 30pt. . .32pt . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .8. . . . 8 . . . .8. . . .4: INT
Dexterity . . . 10. . . .10 . . . 10. . . .8: INT
Constitution. . .8. . . . 8 . . . .8. . . 12: INT
Intelligence. . 20. . . .20 . . . 20. . . 16: INT
Wisdom. . . . . 16. . . .16 . . . 16. . . 20: INT
Charisma. . . . 10. . . .12 . . . 14. . . 24: INT
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28: INT

Skills
. . . . . R .C .C .C .C .C .C .C .R. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C
. . . . . 1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 2 .3 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Disable . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Open Lo . 4 . . 1. 1. 1. 1. . . . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Search. . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Heal. . . 2 . . . . . . . . 2. 3. . . . . . . . . . 1. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 18
Spot. . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . ½. ½. ½. ½. . . . . . . . . . 14
Listen. . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Balance . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Jump. . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Swim. . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Tumble. . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Haggle. . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
UMD . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .52 .7 .7 .7 .7 .7 .7 .8 14 .8 .8 .8 .8 .8 .8 .9 .9 .9 .9 .9


Feats

.1. . . . : Insightful Reflexes
.3. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
.6. . . . : Extend Spell
.9. . . . : Quicken Spell
12. . . . : Lightning Reflexes
15. . . . : Maximize Spell
18. . . . : Mental Toughness
21 Epic . :
24 Epic . :
26 Destiny:
27 Epic . :
28 Destiny:
29 Destiny:
30 Epic . :
30 Legend :

.3 Cleric : Animal Domain

.2 Deity. : Follower of: Olladra
.7 Deity. : Luck of Olladra


Enhancements (80 AP)

Radiant Servant (44 AP)

• Healing Domain, Pacifism, Positive Energy Burst, Improved Empower Healing, Positive Energy Shield
  1. Extra Turning III, Altruism III
  2. Improved Turning III
  3. Intense Healing III, Unyielding Sovereignty, Wisdom
  4. Endless Turning III, Incredible Healing III, Divine Health, Wisdom
  5. Positive Energy Aura, Cure Focus

Drow (12 AP)

• Spell Resistance, Intelligence, Spell Resistance II, Intelligence
  1. Keen Senses III
  2. Nothing Is Hidden III

Warpriest (11 AP)

• Smite Foe: Melee, Resilience of Battle
  1. Toughness II, Righteous Weapons, Awareness III
  2. Righteous Weapons

Mechanic (10 AP)

• Arbalester
  1. Mechanics III, Awareness III
  2. Skill Boost III

Thief-Acrobat (3 AP)

• Staff Control
  1. Fast Movement

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I'm interested in replies to this as well, since I have a character with a similar way.

[DYWYPI]

The Enhancement "Nothing Is Hidden" allows the Character to automatically perform Search checks if their Spot skill is sufficient to spot the trap. Though there's always a huge [Search] penalty, e.g. "Tier I, Nothing is Hidden" Search check occurs at a massive [-12] penalty! You still NEED to meet the actual Search DC, for it to be of any use for revealing the trap in the first place... Nothing Is Hidden; is not something I'd ever choose to spend Action Points on, and I exclusively play pure Rogue Assassins when at Epic. :-)

A good experienced Rogue will have plenty of time to find a Trap by using Spot and Search alone and should not have any need really for 'Nothing Is Hidden'. Unless they are after the land-speed record; i.e. not actually wanting to disable the traps themselves.

I'm not a Build enthusiast though it looks like your CON is rather weak...

My DEX based Rogue Assassins only start with about 16 INT though I never fail traps within Bravery bonus. Perhaps the following thread might help: Trapping DC rule of thumb?, [Post #3]. Since you claim to be rusty with regards to suspected DCs required for "trapping".

[Kinerd]

The Enhancement "Nothing Is Hidden" allows the Character to automatically perform Search checks if their Spot skill is sufficient to spot the trap. Though there's always a huge [Search] penalty, e.g. "Tier I, Nothing is Hidden" Search check occurs at a massive [-12] penalty! You still NEED to meet the actual Search DC, for it to be of any use for revealing the trap in the first place... Nothing Is Hidden; is not something I'd ever choose to spend Action Points on, and I exclusively play pure Rogue Assassins when at Epic. :-)

A good experienced Rogue will have plenty of time to find a Trap by using Spot and Search alone and should not have any need really for 'Nothing Is Hidden'. Unless they are after the land-speed record; i.e. not actually wanting to disable the traps themselves.

I'm not a Build enthusiast though it looks like your CON is rather weak...

My DEX based Rogue Assassins only start with about 16 INT though I never fail traps within Bravery bonus. Perhaps the following thread might help: Trapping DC rule of thumb?, [Post #3]. Since you claim to be rusty with regards to suspected DCs required for "trapping".

My feeling with Nothing is Hidden is I'm going to be a little behind on Spot and I'm not familiar with any quest released in the last six years, plus I'm a sucker for convenience ;D And nothing really jumps out at me to switch for it. As for CON, the INT is less for the bonus to traps and more for the skill points - I feel like the build benefits a lot more from the extra 1 per level than it would from the extra 10 or so HP while leveling.

Thanks for the DC reference! It looks like I'll be able to make it even without elite gear, which is handy since I won't have any

[Pheres]

Hello!

As a casual player i have played a wizard/rogue in my first life with two rogue's levels until character level 20 (i am now in my second life), where i have rebuild him as a pure wizard (because at level 20 and perhaps before, you can have a lot of buffs that are allowing you to bypass traps effects).

In the first levels i have noticed that it's very fun to disarm traps (plus experience bonus is nice), but you need a lot of skill points in order to be high skilled enough in several rogues skills (wizard class is good for it, because is an Int based class, and skill points number are Int based).
You have a very high Int in your build, that's good for skills, but i am not sure that it's matching Cleric point of view, because Cleric is a wisdom based class and with such a high Int you can not improved your Wisdom a lot...

If you want just heal it's not a real trouble, i think, but if you want to cast spells on mobs, don't forget spell DC (which is linked to your wisdom score).
So perhaps you can up your wisdom?

Note on Enhancements: You can, at very low cost, reset your enhancement tree, so you can try some and change them later if you want. I have done it a lot of time because some enhancement become useless at some point and you could want an other enhancement at other point. For me, rebuilding enhancements is a great tool for this game.


++

[EllisDee37]

I'm thinking 14/6 cleric/rogue using a great crossbow. This requires the Harper Agent global tree, which is well worth purchasing if you don't own it yet. (495 TP) You can also unlock it via favor, but if you're rolling up a brand new alt that uses Harper, buying it makes sense.

Divine Mechanic
14/6 Cleric/Rogue
Drow


Level Order

1. Rogue           6. Cleric         11. Rogue          16. Cleric
2. Cleric          7. Cleric         12. Cleric         17. Cleric
3. Cleric          8. Rogue          13. Cleric         18. Cleric
4. Cleric          9. Cleric         14. Rogue          19. Cleric
5. Rogue          10. Cleric         15. Cleric         20. Rogue


Stats
               28pt     30pt     32pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     ----     ----     --------
Strength         8       10       12                4: INT
Dexterity       16       16       16       +2       8: INT
Constitution    12       12       12               12: INT
Intelligence    20       20       20               16: INT
Wisdom           8        8        8               20: DEX
Charisma        10       10       10               24: INT
                                                   28: INT

Skills
          R  C  C  C  R  C  C  R  C  C  R  C  C  R  C  C  C  C  C  R
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Disable   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1     2  1     2  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Open Lo   4           4        3        3        3                 6  23
Search    4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1     2  1     2  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spot      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
UMD       4           4        3        3        3                 6  23
Concent   2  1  1  1     1  1     1  5     1  2     1  2  1  1  1     22
Heal      2                       1  1     1  4     1  1  2  2  2     17
Jump      4           2        5        3        3                    17
Bluff     4                                                            4
Diplo     4                                                            4
Balance   4                                                            4
Haggle    4                                                            4
Swim      3                                                            3
Tumble    1                                                            1
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         52  7  7  7 13  7  7 14  8  8 14  8  8 14  8  9  9  9  9 15


Feats

 1        : Point Blank Shot
 3        : Precision
 6        : Insightful Reflexes
 9        : Empower Healing Spell
12        : Improved Critical: Ranged
15        : Rapid Reload
18        : Quicken Spell
21 Epic   : Precise Shot
24 Epic   : Improved Precise Shot
26 Destiny:
27 Epic   : Rapid Shot
28 Destiny: Doubleshot
29 Destiny:
30 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
30 Legend : Scion of: Mechanus OR Astral Plane OR Arborea

 3 Cleric : Luck Domain OR Animal Domain


Spells

Cure Light Wounds (2), <Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
Cure Moderate Wounds (4), Find Traps (4), <Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
Cure Serious Wounds (7), <Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
Cure Critical Wounds (10), Divine Power (10), <Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
Mass Cure Light Wounds (13), <Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
Mass Cure Moderate Wounds (16), <Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
Mass Cure Serious Wounds (18), <Any>, <Any>, <Any>

Enhancements (80 AP)

Mechanic (39 AP)
Arbalester
Sharpshooter, Lacerating Shots III, Mechanics III, Awareness III
Sharpshooter, Skill Boost III
Sharpshooter, Intelligence
Sharpshooter, Fletching III, Leg Shot, Intelligence
Sharpshooter, Rapid Fire III, Sniper, Mechanical Reloader
Radiant Servant (26 AP)
Healing Domain, Pacifism, Positive Energy Burst, Improved Empower Healing
Extra Turning III, Wand Mastery III, Altruism III
Improved Turning I, Divine Healing III
Intense Healing I, Unyielding Sovereignty
Endless Turning I
Harper Agent (12 AP)
Agent of Good I
Traveler's Toughness I, Strategic Combat, Awareness III
Know the Angles III
Strategic Combat
Thief-Acrobat (3 AP)
Staff Control
Fast Movement
Leveling Guide
Mec0 Arbalester; Hrp0 Agent of Good I; Hrp1 Strategic Combat
Hrp1 Traveler's Toughness I; Hrp1 Awareness I; Hrp2 Know the Angles I, II
Hrp2 Know the Angles III; Hrp1 Awareness II, III
Hrp3 Strategic Combat; Mec1 Sharpshooter; Mec1 Mechanics I
Mec1 Mechanics II, III; Mec1 Awareness I, II
Mec1 Awareness III; Mec1 Lacerating Shots I; Rad0 Healing Domain; Rad1 Altruism I
Rad1 Altruism II, III; Rad1 Extra Turning I, II
Rad1 Extra Turning III; Rad1 Wand Mastery I, II; Rad0 Pacifism
Rad0 Positive Energy Burst; Mec1 Lacerating Shots II, III
Mec2 Sharpshooter; Mec3 Sharpshooter; Mec2 Skill Boost I
Mec2 Skill Boost II; Mec3 Intelligence; Mec4 Fletching I
Mec4 Fletching II, III; Mec4 Leg Shot
Mec4 Sharpshooter; Mec4 Intelligence
Mec2 Skill Boost III; Mec5 Mechanical Reloader; Mec5 Rapid Fire I
Mec5 Sniper; Mec5 Sharpshooter
Mec5 Rapid Fire II, III; Rad3 Unyielding Sovereignty
Rad2 Divine Healing I, II
Rad2 Divine Healing III; Rad1 Wand Mastery III; Rad0 Improved Empower Healing
Rad2 Improved Turning I; Rad4 Endless Turning I; (Bank 1 AP)
Rad3 Intense Healing I; TA0 Staff Control; TA1 Fast Movement

Destiny (24 AP)

Shadowdancer
Acrobatic III, Technician III, Intelligence
Lithe III, Intelligence
Grim Precision III, Intelligence
Intelligence
Sealed Soul, Intelligence
Twists of Fate (15 fate points)
Piercing Clarity (Tier 4 Flowers)
Unearthly Reactions (Tier 1 Magister)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

Mechanics are very strong. Great Crossbows are generally better than repeaters thanks to dps enhancements plus having the same crit profile as falchion/scimitar/rapier, and they have a no-save knockdown effect on vorpal (natural 20). Note that you only get the knockdown effect if you're proficient.

For healing, you'll mainly use spells but at level 9 you also get positive energy burst. The build as written does not get aura because mechanic tier 5s are too good to pass up.


LEVEL ORDER

The build races to three different enhancement goals all at the same time:
12 AP: Harper Agent Strategic Combat I (use INT for attack) and II (use INT for damage)
11 AP: Radiant Servant Positive Energy Burst for "free" healing
30 AP: Unlock Mechanic Tier 5s (requires 30 AP spent in tree)
-------
53 AP = level 14 when tier 5 mechanic is unlocked

Because of that AP split and the fact that we want all three goals ASAP, that means we don't get tier 5s until level 14. With that in mind, we plan for the 5th rogue level (required for tier 5s) to be taken at level 14. Whenever splashing rogue on a low-skill class like cleric, your best bet is to spread out the rogue levels evenly to maximize skill points. The last rogue level is taken at 20 so we can top off the skill points.

Cleric spell levels come after 3 levels then every 2 levels. As in, level 2 spells @ cleric 3, level 3 spells @ cleric 5, level 4 @ 7, level 5 @ 9, etc... So we race to cleric 3 then alternate 1 rogue between every 2 cleric levels after that until 14.


SKILLS

The extra four rogue levels compared to the build in the OP gets you full ranks in Spot (great for unfamiliar quests) and UMD (great for everyone.)


ENHANCEMENTS

Key DPS enhancements to be mindful of:

Mechanic First Core: Arbalester
This grants proficiency with great crossbow, and since this is a great crossbow build we need this immediately.

Harper Tier 2: Know the Angles
Int version of divine might. Instead of adding cha mod to strength (meaning every 4 cha gives +2 strength which is +1 damage) it adds half int mod to damage (meaning every 4 int gives +1 damage.) This is a massive stacking DPS buff.

Harper Tier 3: Strategic Combat
Int to damage. (We also take tier 1 strategic combat for int to attack, but that's earlier.)

Mechanic Tier 4: Fletching
Your ammo becomes returning, plus it gives +10 ranged power at rank 3. Very powerful.

Mechanic Tier 5: All the ones listed are so good it's nuts:
Rapid Fire: +10% Doubleshot (nice!)
Sharpshooter: +3 to hit, +6 damage, +1 sneak attack dice (wow!)
Sniper: +2[W], +3 sneak attack dice, and you now vorpal (no-save knockdown) on 19-20 (holy ****!)
Mechanical Reloader: +10 ranged power, +30 ranged alacrity (seriously?!)

The greatness of those tier 5s is why we don't take aura. The build as written does the following:
1) Immediately take great crossbow proficiency
2) Race up he Harper tree to get Int to attack and damage as well as Know the Angles
3) Race to Positive Energy Aura
4) Race to Mechanic Tier 5s


DEITY

There is no great crossbow deity, so take whatever you like. I'm partial to Sovereign Host for the free Unyielding Sovereignty. If you go that route, note that the enhancement Unyielding Sovereignty is a separate ability with its own cooldown, so you can have both.


DOMAIN

As you say, Animal Domain is a rock solid choice. For a true Int build like this, I think Luck Domain might be slightly stronger. Your call. Also consider War Domain, which grants Holy Sword: +1 crit range and multiplier!


FEATS

For feats, we push insightful reflexes back to level 6 because we're actually starting with high enough dex (16) that there won't be a ton of difference before then. More important to take Precision first so we can crit undead and constructs. Both Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot speed up your firing, but if you can only take 1 take Rapid Reload, so we take that one first and push the other to way late.

We take Empower Healing Spell at 9 because that's when we get our 6th cleric level, immediately taking positive energy burst. You could take maximize instead, but empower healing spell will be worth 100 spell power with enhancements and it works with rejuvenation cocoon, while maximize does not.

Once you get to 1750 favor, claim a +2 dex tome to help qualify for Improved Precise Shot. (requires 19 dex) Base 16 (drow) +2 tome (favor) +1 levelup @ 20 means we could take IPS at 21, though I push it back to 24 so we can take quicken at 18. You can rearrange that to take quicken at 24 and IPS at 21 if you like.


SPELLS

Once you get to epics, Divine Power will have a duration of around 2 minutes, similar to Know the Angles. Divine Power grants full BAB, which improves your rate of fire. As a general rule I'd keep Know the Angles up 24/7 and cast Divine Power at the same time. In heroics, where DP runs out before KtA, meh, that's fine. Skip Divine Power when conserving spell points.

Also, the Find Traps spell grants an insightful bonus to search equal to half your cleric level.

You should have plenty of healing if you join a group and you want to healbot. In general, while grouping, wait until melee engage before raining hot death upon the enemy or they'll make a bee-line straight for you the moment you fire.

[C-Dog]

Welcome back!

I've been gone for about a thousand years and I'm looking to get very casually back into DDO... The basic outline is drow 18clr 2rog. The enhancement system is all new to me so I'm eager for pointers...

Few people claim that the enhancements were immediately intuitive - for many it takes a looong time to really grok them to the point where you have a feel for what's what.

Overall, there are several points where, depending on your priorities, you might want to tweak stuff...

1. Rogue . . . . . 6. Cleric. . . . .11. Cleric. . . . .16. Cleric
2. Cleric . . . . .7. Cleric . . . . 12. Cleric . . . . 17. Cleric
3. Cleric . . . . .8. Cleric . . . . 13. Cleric . . . . 18. Cleric
4. Cleric . . . . .9. Rogue . . . . .14. Cleric. . . . .19. Cleric
5. Cleric . . . . 10. Cleric . . . . 15. Cleric . . . . 20. Cleric

Is there a Level 4 spell you're bee-lining to? B/c an alt, esp a trapper, could certainly use Evasion looong before Level 9. It's been done before, and if you're good with the delay then that's that, but I'm just asking.

Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . 30pt. . .32pt . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .8. . . . 8 . . . .8. . . .4: INT
Dexterity . . . 10. . . .10 . . . 10. . . .8: INT
Constitution. . .8. . . . 8 . . . .8. . . 12: INT
Intelligence. . 20. . . .20 . . . 20. . . 16: INT
Wisdom. . . . . 16. . . .16 . . . 16. . . 20: INT
Charisma. . . . 10. . . .12 . . . 14. . . 24: INT
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28: INT

Hokay, several things here...

Hate the 8 Con, and so will you, later if not sooner.

Don't love the 8 Str - you'll be burdened more than not at lower levels, and that's slow. At higher levels, there is no visual warning when you're in Medium encumbrance, and that cancels your Evasion.

20 Int, and 16 Wis... okay, let me ask a related question - where's his DPS coming from? If it's offensive spells, then you kinda want Wis maxed - don't give away DC to everyone you meet. (Altho', when spreading yourself thin for a flavor build, sacrifices must be made...) If combat is Int-based... how?

And no idea why the higher Cha. You going to be turning a lot of undead? Decide where you strength is (pick ONE), and pump that up.

If you had the Harper tree (on sale now @ 30% off, 346 DP), you could make Int work for combat. Or if you went Great Crossbow and could wait until Rogue 6. But as is... if you think you're going to do spell-combat, then you're increasing Wisdom, not Int.

I think you could drop 6 points off Int (18 works for Humans) and bump Con up to a mighty 12, Str -> a mighty, mighty 10. And dropping Int leads us to...

Skills
...

First, if you, personally, don't have every trap location memorized, you want Spot maxed. (And even then, there are several quests where they are random!)

You don't need Heal - it's nice, but it's only a very little boost to healing spellpower.

You don't need Open Lock maxed - if you're willing to re-roll until you roll high(ish), you can slide. Some players claim they can do the entire game (or maybe 99%) w/ only the initial "4" ranks in Open Lock, and I have no reason to doubt it.

With 18 Int, drop Heal, and make sure Spot, Search and DD are maxed - eventually, if not at every single level. You don't have to max Open Lock, and you can squeeze out some more if you try. (Skip some points just before the 2nd Rogue Level, play catch up then. Try to spend in-class while it's cheap, not slavishly cross-class every level.)

Feats
...

I see Healing, I see Saving Throws... where is the DPS? You said "casual", but if you literally plan to run every quest on Casual, you're going to be VERY slow to finish quests and gain any xp to level up. And if you want anything Hard/Elite, again, you're going to have to be so far over-level that the xp penalty will be equally painful.

Unless you're in a static group, friends or a guild, and you can provide healing/trapping while others provide the DPS - that works. But you kinda have to be able to count on it.

Enhancements (80 AP)

Same observation as "Feats", above.

Also, 3 AP for a +2% run speed from Rogue 2? Kinda spendy for the return, no?


Here's a Str-based (Human) Cleric/Rogue, 2HF. Diff build than yours (in that it has a clear source of DPS, ahem), but might be helpful to compare.
o https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...06#post6091506

[EllisDee37]

Harper tree (on sale now @ 30% off, 346 DP)

Nice!

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

What I never understood was that search and spot were based on different stats. But that's a questions for the founders of D&D, I guess. And they can't be asked anymore. My rough guess is that they did that for a rather balanced party with several different party members (which would be logical for a multiperson play).

[C-Dog]

What I never understood was that search and spot were based on different stats. But that's a questions for the founders of D&D, I guess. And they can't be asked anymore. My rough guess is...

Game balance is often overlooked, so that could indeed be a big part of it.

But I think they also wanted to distinguish between a conscious effort to find something unknown (Search/Intelligence) and an unconscious awareness of something unknown (Spot/Wisdom).

And, regardless, in the end we have to remember - this is a game, not a simulation.

[Kinerd]

Hello!

As a casual player i have played a wizard/rogue in my first life with two rogue's levels until character level 20 (i am now in my second life), where i have rebuild him as a pure wizard (because at level 20 and perhaps before, you can have a lot of buffs that are allowing you to bypass traps effects).

In the first levels i have noticed that it's very fun to disarm traps (plus experience bonus is nice), but you need a lot of skill points in order to be high skilled enough in several rogues skills (wizard class is good for it, because is an Int based class, and skill points number are Int based).
You have a very high Int in your build, that's good for skills, but i am not sure that it's matching Cleric point of view, because Cleric is a wisdom based class and with such a high Int you can not improved your Wisdom a lot...

If you want just heal it's not a real trouble, i think, but if you want to cast spells on mobs, don't forget spell DC (which is linked to your wisdom score).
So perhaps you can up your wisdom?

Note on Enhancements: You can, at very low cost, reset your enhancement tree, so you can try some and change them later if you want. I have done it a lot of time because some enhancement become useless at some point and you could want an other enhancement at other point. For me, rebuilding enhancements is a great tool for this game.


++

Yes, the aim for this character is healing and trapping one-two and casting a distant third, I recognize that DC and Spell Pen are big weaknesses. Thanks for the tip on resets! I don't remember how it used to be but it's a relief that I won't mess anything up too much as I feel my way in the new system.

[Kinerd]

I'm thinking 14/6 cleric/rogue using a great crossbow. This requires the Harper Agent global tree, which is well worth purchasing if you don't own it yet. (495 TP) You can also unlock it via favor, but if you're rolling up a brand new alt that uses Harper, buying it makes sense.

This build is clearly superior on the combat front. I am curious though, how do you get your Wisdom high enough to cast the high level spells? I remember +6 being the relatively easy ceiling for gear, which of course only gets you to level four. Is it a lot easier to exceed that now? And how does your healing stack up without Mass Heal or aura? I don't remember back in the day how it was outside of raids.

I had seen the generic enhancement trees in your planner (thanks btw it's a great utility) but I didn't know they included new high level f2p quests! Fantastic

There is no great crossbow deity

Are there any good crossbow deities? waka waka

[Kinerd]

Welcome back!

Thanks!

Unless you're in a static group, friends or a guild, and you can provide healing/trapping while others provide the DPS - that works. But you kinda have to be able to count on it.

So I should have led with this but my plan for this build is to definitely always be in a group. And if there aren't any, switch to some other character, though I do think the character can contribute on bosses with Divine Punishment at least. To your specific points:

Level four spells gets me full Restoration, Death Ward, FoM, all of which I'm keen on. (Maybe that's outdated?) As far as evasion goes I don't remember too many traps I really have to go through before disarming before level 9. I also wanted to delay it as long as possible to reap the benefits of the cheaper skill points.

I'm comfortable with the HP penalty from tanked Con. I hadn't considered the burden / loss of evasion from low Str though, that's definitely something to keep an eye on, thanks! The thought with the Cha is not so much the strength of Turns but the number, I feel like three extra turns (thus Bursts/Auras/etc.) per rest helps me more than the marginal HP or melee ability.

My thought on Spot is the Animal domain and Warpriest enhancements cover me. By my count at level 8 (the weakest point) a pure rogue would be at 11 from skill where I'll have 4 skill + 4 domain + 3 warpriest enhancements = 11 and I'm even all else being equal even if the pure rogue starts at 16 Wis. And eventually I'll have the Drow enhancement which bypasses Spot entirely as far as traps/doors go... but of course I'm not comfortable tanking it entirely.

I definitely am not married to the run speed enhancements, but I don't see anything else I'd rather have either - SR from Drow? ranged stuff from Mechanic? Divine Cleansing from Radiant Servant? the only ones I seriously considered were more Warpriest stuff, but as we've established this build isn't doing much in melee anyway so nothing really jumped out at me. Though I'm open to alternatives!

Like Ellis' build, clearly the linked build is superior in generating damage, but I'm very leery of the no Spot and no Concentration, especially for meleeing. My goal (which again I should have led with) is party flexibility, being able to fill both the trapper and heal spot in heroics while recognizing it can't come close to matching a legit rogue's DPS or a legit cleric's casting. I've always been a little skeptical of warpriests (lowercase) so maybe that's unduly influencing me here, but I would rather be able to absolutely cover both trapping and healing and absolutely not cover anything else, compared to kind of being able to trap and heal and melee, or kind of trap and heal and cast.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

But I think they also wanted to distinguish between a conscious effort to find something unknown (Search/Intelligence) and an unconscious awareness of something unknown (Spot/Wisdom).

Interesting point, thank you.

But - there are people out there who'd rather want simulations. I've seen discussions about that in the pen & paper role play area.

[EllisDee37]

This build is clearly superior on the combat front. I am curious though, how do you get your Wisdom high enough to cast the high level spells? I remember +6 being the relatively easy ceiling for gear, which of course only gets you to level four. Is it a lot easier to exceed that now? And how does your healing stack up without Mass Heal or aura? I don't remember back in the day how it was outside of raids.

It's a lot easier to exceed now, yes. Mass Heal isn't really a thing clerics do anymore; certainly not during heroic questing. Maybe the occasional raid, but even then, my pure cleric I used for raid healing stopped casting Mass Heal sometime around 2014.

My sense of things is that pugs would rather have a dps character who can umd heal scrolls instead of a dedicated healer up through around reaper skull 3. If you're looking to run high skull (6+) then I honestly don't know what people would rather have. I tend to think in harder difficulties, most people want every party member to contribute directly to kills as opposed to being pure support. But to clarify, reaper difficulty is one of the things that drove me away from the game, so I can't say that with authority.

When I first set up a dualbox account, I started with cleric trappers who couldn't do anything else based on pretty much the exact idea you're describing: Dual-Box Elite Opener: The "Mom" build.

I present the 18/2 Cleric/Rogue "Mom" build. She'll wait patiently at the start of the quest while you boys go play, but if you scrape your knee she'll come a-runnin'! She also lets you store all your stuff at her house.

After setting up level 3, 7, and 11 mom builds I found them to be less than great. So much so that I deleted and re-rolled them to be real alts. Having little or no ability to kill is just not a great position to be in no matter how you slice it.

Lemme think on it a bit and see if I can't come up with a divine trapper who can kill stuff.

[Kinerd]

It's a lot easier to exceed now, yes. Mass Heal isn't really a thing clerics do anymore; certainly not during heroic questing. Maybe the occasional raid, but even then, my pure cleric I used for raid healing stopped casting Mass Heal sometime around 2014.

My sense of things is that pugs would rather have a dps character who can umd heal scrolls instead of a dedicated healer up through around reaper skull 3. If you're looking to run high skull (6+) then I honestly don't know what people would rather have. I tend to think in harder difficulties, most people want every party member to contribute directly to kills as opposed to being pure support. But to clarify, reaper difficulty is one of the things that drove me away from the game, so I can't say that with authority.

When I first set up a dualbox account, I started with cleric trappers who couldn't do anything else based on pretty much the exact idea you're describing: Dual-Box Elite Opener: The "Mom" build.



After setting up level 3, 7, and 11 mom builds I found them to be less than great. So much so that I deleted and re-rolled them to be real alts. Having little or no ability to kill is just not a great position to be in no matter how you slice it.

Lemme think on it a bit and see if I can't come up with a divine trapper who can kill stuff.

Reading up on reaper now. I get how it's harder generally and stipulate to my ignorance but I'm not clear why people would prefer someone UMDing Heal scrolls to a proper healer, especially when monsters are hitting way harder. It also seems like instant kill spells are much tougher there, closing the gap between a pure cleric and a hybrid non casting build like this, no?

To be clear I'm not looking to explicitly dual box although I agree the principle is similar.

[EllisDee37]

Reading up on reaper now. I get how it's harder generally and stipulate to my ignorance but I'm not clear why people would prefer someone UMDing Heal scrolls to a proper healer, especially when monsters are hitting way harder. It also seems like instant kill spells are much tougher there, closing the gap between a pure cleric and a hybrid non casting build like this, no?

Because of the self-healing penalty in reaper, people will slather on way more healing amp and devotion than they normally would just so their self-heals do something. That ends up meaning that other people can heal them very easily.

Imagine you're running Gianthold at level 14. A tempest ranger in the party with 1 rogue level easily handles all the traps, and his cure moderate wounds spells heals other party members for around 200 HP per 8 spell point cast with a very short cooldown. He also happens to do top-notch dps. How much value are you adding to that group as a dedicated healer and trapper who can't kill stuff?

Not saying that would necessarily be the norm, and I absolutely cherry-picked that example (tempest ranger with trapping skills and enough ranger levels to finally be able to cast cure moderate), but still. Even a handful of groups like that over the course of a life can sour you on a build. My first ever cleric back in 2011 was a dedicated healbot, but after a handful of pugs where I was literally useless (because everyone else easily healed themselves or didn't even take damage in the first place) I decided that I didn't want my characters' value be determined by other people.

Also consider that a non-trivial number of quests (VON4, WizKing, etc...) involve splitting up the party. Imagine you find yourself splitting up a 4-man group in VON4 into two groups. The group is a paladin, a warlock, a rogue and you. Which 2-man group would you contribute something meaningful to? (The warlock and rogue would probably be able to easily solo a side each by themselves, no help required.)

In a standard quest attuned to the new power level, like, say, Temple of Elemental Evil, a dedicated healer would probably be most welcome and appreciated. But very often you won't need trapping ability (you wouldn't need it in ToEE) and even when you do, since you're only running in pugs, it's highly likely someone else in the party will already have trapping skills anyway.

Are you married to cleric? I'm thinking possibly a druid or favored soul might be more workable, but I'm not sure on that. Or possibly, just a 2-rogue splash using gimped great crossbows would still be something, y'know?

EDIT: The current sale on Harper is a great deal worth jumping on regardless.

[C-Dog]

But - there are people out there who'd rather want simulations. I've seen discussions about that in the pen & paper role play area.

For that, I'd recommend Twilight 2000 (1st ed), which used (declassified) military simulation flowcharts for much of their combat.

Or (more obscure) Bureau 13 - follow a bullet as it goes thru various parts of the human body, organ by organ. FUN! \o/


For me, the two are very different past times - I like them both, it all depends what sort of "story" you want to tell.

[C-Dog]

If you say you've thought this through, then I believe you - but make sure you have. I'm w/ Ellis - in today's DDO, offense is king, and parties are looking for/expecting "some" help in that department.

Level four spells gets me full Restoration, Death Ward, FoM, all of which I'm keen on. (Maybe that's outdated?)

Nothing outdated about Freedom of Movement, nor the others. You'll be a very popular buffer.

As far as evasion goes I don't remember too many traps I really have to go through before disarming before level 9.

Don't worry, they'll find you and remind you they're there.

I hadn't considered the burden / loss of evasion from low Str though, that's definitely something to keep an eye on, thanks!

If you can make it to... oh, about Level 12, and grab a (cheap, at that ML) +5 Str item, with +2 from Guild buffs, a 15 Str won't be so bad. You won't be collecting a lot of plate armor and tower shields from chests, but you'll make do.

...ranged stuff from Mechanic? ... we've established this build isn't doing much in melee anyway...

Thing is you'll never notice +2%. It's 3 AP effectively wasted.

For 1-2 AP in Mech, a Vorpal Great Crossbow can really reach out and touch someone.

If you can scrape up 8 AP, I really like the Tier 2 Mech Skill Boost - +6 to whatever Skills you use for the next 20 seconds. That's 2 Searches + 2 Disables (if they're close by). Handy even out-of-questing for buying/selling. (And the other 4 points can include some static boosts to various trapping skills, adds a nice buffer when you're trying to keep gear at-level.)

I would rather be able to absolutely cover both trapping and healing and absolutely not cover anything else, compared to kind of being able to trap and heal and melee, or kind of trap and heal and cast.

Fair 'nuff!

That established, I think you can slide on your starting Wisdom (in favor of Con/Str?). You aren't worried about DC's, +Wis gear will keep you covered, and you'll have plenty of spell points since you aren't going to be casting offensively very often.

And/or - another thought (if in the opposite direction) - some Healers prefer Maximize over Empower Healing. A lot more expensive, but more spell power when it matters (and it can be applied to the odd DPS spell, if/when you have one).

[EllisDee37]

SLAs with no DC are the way to go, I think. The build I came up with is very similar to the one in the OP. The main difference is going Fire Domain for additional no-save SLAs:

Divine Trapper
18/2 Cleric/Rogue
Drow


Level Order

1. Rogue           6. Cleric         11. Cleric         16. Cleric
2. Cleric          7. Cleric         12. Cleric         17. Cleric
3. Cleric          8. Cleric         13. Cleric         18. Cleric
4. Cleric          9. Cleric         14. Cleric         19. Cleric
5. Cleric         10. Rogue          15. Cleric         20. Cleric


Stats
               28pt     Level Up
               ----     --------
Strength        10       4: WIS
Dexterity       10       8: WIS
Constitution    12      12: WIS
Intelligence    20      16: WIS
Wisdom          12      20: WIS
Charisma        10      24: WIS
                        28: WIS

Skills
          R  C  C  C  C  C  C  C  C  R  C  C  C  C  C  C  C  C  C  C
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Disable   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1     2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Search    4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spot      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Concent   2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  3     1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  22
UMD       4                          9                                13
Open Lo   4                                                            4
Bluff     4                                                            4
Diplo     4                                                            4
Balance   4                                                            4
Jump      4                                                            4
Haggle    4                                                            4
Swim      3                                                            3
Spellcr   2                                                            2
Tumble    1                                                            1
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         52  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7 13  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7


Feats

 1        : Insightful Reflexes
 3        : Maximize Spell
 6        : Empower Spell
 9        : Quicken Spell
12        : Empower Healing Spell
15        : Mental Toughness
18        : Improved Mental Toughness
21 Epic   : Epic Mental Toughness
24 Epic   : Intensify Spell
26 Destiny: Epic Spell Power: Light
27 Epic   : Ruin
28 Destiny: Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Greater Ruin
30 Legend : Scion of: Celestia

 3 Cleric : Fire Domain

 2 Deity  : Follower of: Sovereign Host
 7 Deity  : Unyielding Sovereignty


Enhancements (80 AP)

Radiant Servant (41 AP)
Healing Domain, Pacifism, Positive Energy Burst, Improved Empower Healing
Extra Turning III, Wand Mastery III
Improved Turning III, Efficient Empower Healing III
Intense Healing III, Unyielding Sovereignty
Endless Turning III, Incredible Healing III
Positive Energy Aura
Divine Disciple (25 AP)
Emissary: Light, Sacred Defense, Sun Bolt, Sunbeam
Nimbus of Light III, Spellpower: Universal III, Spell Critical: Universal, Spell Points III
Spell Critical: Universal
Searing Light III, Spellpower: Universal II
Holy Smite III
Mechanic (10 AP)
Arbalester
Mechanics III, Awareness III
Skill Boost III
Warpriest (4 AP)
Smite Foe: Melee
Awareness III
Leveling Guide
(Bank 4 AP)
DD0 Emissary: Light; DD1 Nimbus of Light I, II, III; DD1 Spellpower: Universal I, II, III; DD1 Spell Points I
DD1 Spell Points II, III; DD1 Spell Critical: Universal
DD3 Searing Light I, II, III; DD0 Sacred Defense
Rad0 Healing Domain; Rad1 Extra Turning I, II, III
Rad1 Wand Mastery I, II, III; Rad0 Pacifism
Rad2 Improved Turning I, II; Rad0 Positive Energy Burst; DD0 Sun Bolt
DD2 Spell Critical: Universal; DD3 Spellpower: Universal I; DD4 Holy Smite I
DD4 Holy Smite II, III; Rad3 Unyielding Sovereignty
Rad3 Intense Healing I, II
Rad3 Intense Healing III; Rad2 Improved Turning III
Reset Divine Disciple
Radiant Servant
(none)
(none)
(none)
Endless Turning III, Incredible Healing II
Positive Energy Aura
Divine Disciple: Emissary: Light, Sacred Defense, Sun Bolt
Nimbus of Light III, Spellpower: Universal III, Spell Points III
(none)
Searing Light III, Spellpower: Universal I
DD1 Spell Critical: Universal; DD2 Spell Critical: Universal
DD0 Sunbeam; DD4 Holy Smite I, II, III
DD3 Spellpower: Universal II; Rad0 Improved Empower Healing; Mec0 Arbalester; Mec1 Awareness I
Mec1 Awareness II, III; Mec1 Mechanics I, II
Mec1 Mechanics III; Mec2 Skill Boost I, II, III
Rad2 Efficient Empower Healing I, II
Rad2 Efficient Empower Healing III; Rad4 Incredible Healing III
War0 Smite Foe: Melee; War1 Awareness I, II, III

Destiny (24 AP)

Exalted Angel
Avenging Light, Radiant Power III, Endless Faith III, Healing Power III
(none)
Purity of Essence III
Rebuke Foe, Blood and Radiance III
Leap of Faith
Sun Bolt, Reborn in Light
Twists of Fate (12 fate points)
Lithe (Tier 2 Shadowdancer)
Technician (Tier 1 Shadowdancer)
Unearthly Reactions (Tier 1 Magister)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

You can apply metamagics to SLAs for free (Maximize, Empower, Quicken, Intensify) and you get 5 pretty good ones:

- Nimbus of Light (no save)
- Searing Light (no save)
- Scorching Ray (no save)
- Wall of Fire (only the first tick has a save)
- Holy Smite (Fortitude Save for half, so it can't be evaded for zero damage)

You also get Ruin and Greater Ruin in epics, which aren't SLAs so use your best judgment when to meta them up. Neither has a save so no worries about DC.

You also get Sun Bolt and Sunbeam from the divine disciple cores, but those have reflex saves so mobs can evade them for no damage. Still, worth trying I suppose.

In epics you also get Avenging Light, which is okay-ish.


For enhancements, you get Positive Energy Burst at level 7, which is the earliest possible. At 12, reset Divine Disciple and immediately take aura. (Yum!)


Since you've been gone so long, you may not know that you can select which metamagics apply to which spells. For any spell or SLA on your hotbar, right click it on the hotbar and choose what metamagics apply to it. Load up all the SLAs with any metas you can, because again, free!