Greater DM of Shadow

[Coffey]

Just how much better is a characters defense using Elven greater dragonmark of shadow?

I havent tried it and have recently been looking at high dexterity light armor builds and how
the total defense stacks with reflex saves, evasion, and dodge.

The only higher level characters i have played wore heavy armor.

[unbongwah]

Just how much better is a characters defense using Elven greater dragonmark of shadow?

There are four main things which contribute to your chances of avoiding being hit: AC, Dodge, concealment, and Incorporealty. Displacement is a 50% concealment bonus which is the highest available in DDO. Apart from the Greater Shadow Dragonmark, Displacement is available as a regular arcane spell, by using a scroll via UMD, and certain clickies. The main drawback to the Shadow DM is the cost: one regular feat slot plus 12 APs can be a lot, depending on how feat-constrained or AP-starved your build is. Also most people see elves as a less than optimal race. So: there are opportunity costs associated with taking Gtr Shadow DM.

the total defense stacks with reflex saves, evasion, and dodge.

Remember that saving throws like Reflex are part of your defense vs magic and traps; while Dodge and concealment are part of your defense vs physical attacks.

[Coffey]

There are four main things which contribute to your chances of avoiding being hit: AC, Dodge, concealment, and Incorporealty. Displacement is a 50% concealment bonus which is the highest available in DDO. Apart from the Greater Shadow Dragonmark, Displacement is available as a regular arcane spell, by using a scroll via UMD, and certain clickies. The main drawback to the Shadow DM is the cost: one regular feat slot plus 12 APs can be a lot, depending on how feat-constrained or AP-starved your build is. Also most people see elves as a less than optimal race. So: there are opportunity costs associated with taking Gtr Shadow DM.

Im not familiar with incorporeality. If it helps im for it though.
Edit: Looked it up on wiki http://ddowiki.com/page/Incorporeal
So Feywild Tap will work with displacement?

I read how annoying clickies are because of their short duration. So Elf would be the only choice other than Cleric luck domain. Cleric level 5 splash would be the cost of that and i dont know how good it is in comparison.

Remember that saving throws like Reflex are part of your defense vs magic and traps; while Dodge and concealment are part of your defense vs physical attacks.

Now this is where going from heavy armor makes me feel kind of naked. Evasion also helps with avoidance but physical damage if it lands is going to be heavy on a skinny little Elf then?

[EllisDee37]

I spent two feats on it, also taking Extend to make it last as long as possible. I took the enhancement at level 9 which is also when I took Extend, so I got the full experience starting at level 9. In the end, I was unimpressed. My thoughts from that life:

As I take 15 I'm starting to think that the displacement SLA isn't all it's cracked up to be. Most of these quests I'm running are very long, much longer than the SLAs can cover, so I end up not even bothering with it. And besides, most of the time when I want it it's because there's multiple champs, and displacement doesn't help against champs. [...] Given all that, I've decided to abandon the dragonmark when I reach 20. I've adjusted the enhancements leveling guide to reflect this, and added alternate feats that I'll take after each ETR, and also by using the free +0 heart of wood once I hit 20.

[unbongwah]

Edit: Looked it up on wiki http://ddowiki.com/page/Incorporeal
So Feywild Tap will work with displacement?

Correct: Concealment and Incorporealty have their own miss chance so they stack together; however they do not stack with themselves. I.e., Feywild Tap + Displacement stack together, but Blur + Displacement do not because they're both concealment bonuses. So Feywild Tap is useful up until you slot a Ghostly item, at which point you might as well drop those APs for something else.

Also note if you're trying to figure out your total miss chance, they stack multiplicatively not additively. I.e., your miss chance isn't 50% (Displacement) + 10% (Ghostly) = 60% miss chance; it's 1 / ((100% - 50%) * (100% - 10%)) = 55% miss chance. Errr I think - been a while since I did a probabilities class.

I read how annoying clickies are because of their short duration. So Elf would be the only choice other than Cleric luck domain. Cleric level 5 splash would be the cost of that and i dont know how good it is in comparison.

The duration on Displacement is "6 seconds per caster level;" the Extend metamagic will double that. For Gtr Shadow DM, the caster level is your character level; for cleric SLAs, it would be however many cleric levels you have. So with only 5 cleric levels, your Displacement SLA would last only 30 seconds (60 w/Extend).

FYI, in my elf ranger thread there's a Tempest build with Shadow DM.

[EllisDee37]

Also note if you're trying to figure out your total miss chance, they stack multiplicatively not additively. I.e., your miss chance isn't 50% (Displacement) + 10% (Ghostly) = 60% miss chance; it's 1 / ((100% - 50%) * (100% - 10%)) = 55% miss chance. Errr I think - been a while since I did a probabilities class.

Yep that's correct, but that math looks more complicated than how it's normally thought of, which is to multiply the chances of each effect not working:

Displacement = 50%, so 50% chance it won't work
Ghostly = 10%, so 90% chance it won't work

0.5 * 0.9 = 45% chance neither will work
45% chance neither work = 55% chance at least one will work

[Coffey]

I spent two feats on it, also taking Extend to make it last as long as possible. I took the enhancement at level 9 which is also when I took Extend, so I got the full experience starting at level 9. In the end, I was unimpressed. My thoughts from that life:

Looks good thanks for the explanations

Were you wearing light armor with this character?

So more CON and PRR with my character for fighting champions etc will help?

FYI, in my elf ranger thread there's a Tempest build with Shadow DM.

Thanks, i just read it. You have a lot of good information in there.

[unbongwah]

Just to clarify something: Monster Champions with True Sight ignore concealment like Displacement; not all Champions have True Sight, though, so Displacement is still useful vs those champs. But this is why you also invest in Dodge, Incorporealty, and AC (if you can); so you're not relying on only one form of miss chance.

[Mindos]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Miss_chance

[Coffey]

Just to clarify something: Monster Champions with True Sight ignore concealment like Displacement; not all Champions have True Sight, though, so Displacement is still useful vs those champs. But this is why you also invest in Dodge, Incorporealty, and AC (if you can); so you're not relying on only one form of miss chance.

I totally forgot about DR to go with PRR, and total HP for the last line of defense.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Damage_Reduction

http://ddowiki.com/page/Miss_chance

This is a good read thanks.