Incentivise PVP?

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

PVP could be incentivised raid style.........

6V6

Player vs player.........

Here's how you do it!



Firstly, when I say PVP, I am NOT talking about Tavern Brawls, I am talking about the Arena fights you have to queue for that already exist in the game.... sadly it seems most have never tried this system out and so not many people understand my attachment to it. It is a very fun and enjoyable system, I encourage you to give it a try! If you enjoyed the version of Unreal Tournament on the Playstation 2, DDO's arena PVP is a lot like the PVP in Unreal tournament..... it feels similar but has a really nice twist and I'd have to say is more enjoyable than Unreal Tournament and yet has far more potential.

After all classes are updated, update the PVP Arena mechanics to bring further balance between the classes for PVP Arena purposes.

The SSG team would rely on bug reports from the PVP arena to help better distinguish the nature of in combat bugs (like to what extent are the bugs from the NPC code's side and to what extent are they from the player code's side) and using said collected data focus some future updates on remedying said bugs that occur both in PVP and PVE or simply only occur in PVE in which only occurring in PVE and never being reported from PVP is revealing in itself. Game code is a very massive thing and there is a lot to sort through, introducing and incentivising PVP can help narrow down and sort out the nature of some bugs thus allowing SSG to more easily pinpoint the location of problematic code.

It was pointed out that cosmetic prizes would be more acceptable, and I agree........ however I have two additional suggestions to that!

6V6 tournament systems, one win grants you an arena token in which can be saved up and spent on cosmetics, free gold daily dice roll tickets, or free chest reroll tickets. You may run this once a day on one character per server.



Old post fragments below



Each month announce eight to fifteen random pieces of loot or materials that are normally hard to get and use raid mechanics (You may only run once every three days) to limit the use of this.... you could even make it once a month!

Example;

This month's prize possibilities are as follows

1-30 Shadow Dragon Phlogistons

2-30 Fire Dragon Phlogistons

3-Cobalt Guard the possibility of Max Possible Reaper and Mythic Bonus

4-Bloodrage Chrism with the possibility of Max Possible Reaper and Mythic Bonus

5-Fully upgraded Nightmare The Fallen Moon with the possibility of a max reaper and mythic bonus

6-Legendary Pansophic Circlet with the possibility of Max Possible Reaper and Mythic Bonus

7-300 random rare collectables

8-Choice +8 stat tome

Each Member of the winning team gets one item from the list while the losers are free to try again!

You could even do a second list for heroic level items such as Quiver Of Alacrity!

[Memnir]

No.

[Hobgoblin]

No.

Actually, i will go with a hell no.

[Sunnie]

The end result of this will be a lot of alts taking turns getting defeated. It won't make more people want to PvP, it will make raiding even more rare, and will add almost as many ingredients as duping did. Your suggestion would fail to do what you intend for it to do, as well as cause a lot of harm.

So: Hell no!

[JOTMON]

PVP could be incentivised raid style......… ~snip~

screw PVP.

DDO mechanics would have to be built from the ground up to make PVP viable and balanced and everything else in the game needs attention before this should even make it to the drawing board.

all your rewards are BS...
Nothing from PVP should be useful in PVE.
any reward from PVP should only be viable for PVP or cosmetic based.

[Sebastrd]

How about no? Does no work for you?

[Discpsycho]

DDO mechanics would have to be built from the ground up to make PVP viable and balanced and everything else in the game needs attention before this should even make it to the drawing board.

Even if you ignored the problems that other folks have mentioned, JOTMON is correct.

I'm somebody who will probably never play a fully-geared level 30 character, mostly due to the time required, but I do like the thought experiment aspect and try to keep a decent grasp on endgame DCs, etc.

Imagine you can build a character who can live through a Gnome PM's DC-110 Finger of Death (requires Con-stacking), a Dragonborn Sorceror's Ruin (requires Block Elements, if that even works), or escape a Warlock's Evard's Black Tentacles (requires Str-stacking) so you don't sit there helplessly while they point, laugh, and blast you down. Bear in mind that these are all abilities with short cooldowns, so a single player could conceivably wreck most of your team. So you're feeling pretty stoked about your be-all, end-all PvP character...and then as your team runs through a doorway, you're all picked off with a single Manyshot-and-Adrenaline-fueled Arrow of Slaying from a Ranger using IPS. With 5 crits of 25k, only a timely Unbreakable Forcefield is going to save your team, and even then you're looking at 6k damage.

For more evidence that doesn't involve quoting ridiculous builds, just watch a video of a group running quests on R10. The player potential for CC-stacking, burst damage, and charm/kill spells is meant for monsters with incredible HP and saves, and the only way for PvP to work would be with a stat squish a la World of Warcraft. That's a lot of time invested by developers for minimal player gain and minimal cash flow

[Arkat]

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

The end result of this will be a lot of alts taking turns getting defeated. It won't make more people want to PvP, it will make raiding even more rare, and will add almost as many ingredients as duping did. Your suggestion would fail to do what you intend for it to do, as well as cause a lot of harm.

So: Hell no!

So what if only one character per server per month was permitted?

PVP is fun, but no one does PVP because there is no gain. Among all of the possibilities there has to be a way to incentivise such without any damages, people just lack the imagination. The items could be decided based on what items are still in the game, valued, but rarely ever in someone's inventory or bank space.

[KingKoz]

Insentivise PVP? PVP should be removed from the game all together. I started playing D&D in 1978 and do not remeber once ever coming across a PVP arena. The game is a party driven game......NOT a 1 v 1 game!

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Even if you ignored the problems that other folks have mentioned, JOTMON is correct.

I'm somebody who will probably never play a fully-geared level 30 character, mostly due to the time required, but I do like the thought experiment aspect and try to keep a decent grasp on endgame DCs, etc.

Imagine you can build a character who can live through a Gnome PM's DC-110 Finger of Death (requires Con-stacking), a Dragonborn Sorceror's Ruin (requires Block Elements, if that even works), or escape a Warlock's Evard's Black Tentacles (requires Str-stacking) so you don't sit there helplessly while they point, laugh, and blast you down. Bear in mind that these are all abilities with short cooldowns, so a single player could conceivably wreck most of your team. So you're feeling pretty stoked about your be-all, end-all PvP character...and then as your team runs through a doorway, you're all picked off with a single Manyshot-and-Adrenaline-fueled Arrow of Slaying from a Ranger using IPS. With 5 crits of 25k, only a timely Unbreakable Forcefield is going to save your team, and even then you're looking at 6k damage.

For more evidence that doesn't involve quoting ridiculous builds, just watch a video of a group running quests on R10. The player potential for CC-stacking, burst damage, and charm/kill spells is meant for monsters with incredible HP and saves, and the only way for PvP to work would be with a stat squish a la World of Warcraft. That's a lot of time invested by developers for minimal player gain and minimal cash flow

PVP needs a revamp I do not deny that, there are certain skills/spells that players in PVP should be immune to. If a revamp is done right, PVP could be like Smite meets Unreal Tournament with swordplay thrown into the mix.


In all honesty, I'm a little disappointed in people for saying a straight up "No" rather than to reply with a "Not unless PVP is fixed and balanced" because PVP isn't balanced but there are indeed things that can be done to balance it. If PVP were incentivised without any serious changes........ I'd be saying No as well but it goes without saying, if PVP events were added, PVP would NEED to change in which is far and beyond a No brainer..... and so not seeing that is kind of embarrassing, I guess I should have mentioned the need for a revamp/balancing, sometimes you have to tell people that grass is green I suppose.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Insentivise PVP? PVP should be removed from the game all together. I started playing D&D in 1978 and do not remeber once ever coming across a PVP arena. The game is a party driven game......NOT a 1 v 1 game!

Uuuuuh, PVP in DDO includes 6V6, it's not just 1 V 1

Step 1-Start gathering a party

Step 2-Take the party to a Tavern with a PVP arena

Step 3-Convert party to raid

Step 4-Place half the team on red team, half on blue team

Step 5-Cue for the arena

Step 6-Six Vs Six Arena fight

This functionality is already in the game and the tavern brawl in the game does NOT compare with the PVP arena that requires queuing before participation. The 6V6 arena fights that DDO already has feels a little like Unreal Tournament with swords thrown in the mix. It would seem likely based on your reply that you've never used the actual PVP arena and instead only used the brawling area, I'd argue that everyone should experience the actual PVP arena at least once, there is major potential there waiting for a DDO thinktank to masterfully figure out how to fulfill.

If you never experienced the actual PVP arena, that makes me think that perhaps others have not either, and if that is the case then there really is some hope to push for a PVP update..... just need to find ways to encourage people to join a raid group for trying out the already existing PVP functionality as the fact is that DDO's PVP system can be very enjoyable................. but here's the thing....


SSG is working on revamping each individual class one by one to improve their strengths, from the looks of it the path they are taking might actually have the potential to fix some of the balance issues that occur in PVP, therefore one experienced in the actual PVP arena could easily and rightfully have the grounds to make the argument that there should not be a PVP update until all of the classes are updated.

Also, might I add that DDO is a different animal altogether and also there is nothing significant keeping D&D campaigns from having a PVP aspect, especially when D&D has magic...... you know revive the defeated magically after the tournament and all? It would just take a bit of creativity to achieve such, and in the world of D&D..... if you lack creativity, you fail.

[EllisDee37]

In all honesty, I'm a little disappointed in people for saying a straight up "No" rather than to reply with a "Not unless PVP is fixed and balanced" because PVP isn't balanced but there are indeed things that can be done to balance it. If PVP were incentivised without any serious changes........ I'd be saying No as well but it goes without saying, if PVP events were added, PVP would NEED to change in which is far and beyond a No brainer..... and so not seeing that is kind of embarrassing, I guess I should have mentioned the need for a revamp/balancing, sometimes you have to tell people that grass is green I suppose.

My answer to the OP is No, and especially No to dev time being spent on PvP instead of the PvE game.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

screw PVP.

DDO mechanics would have to be built from the ground up to make PVP viable and balanced and everything else in the game needs attention before this should even make it to the drawing board.

all your rewards are BS...
Nothing from PVP should be useful in PVE.
any reward from PVP should only be viable for PVP or cosmetic based.

I'll take your argument for cosmetics, besides since it wasn't obvious.... the rewards matter was just a cross between an example and suggestion but more so an example. Incentive is still incentive, I'll also agree with you that there are balance Issues.......

However........... if we were to run an experiment......

6 level 30 artificers Vs 6 level 30 Druids........ Which side would win and why?

DDO has recently had these two classes updated and I'd bet you they'd be pretty balanced against eachother in an Arena PVP fight.

As for the announced changes to favored soul and cleric classes..... they are making one better with Melee DPS while another better with resisting melee damage, sounds to me like the path SSG is already taking might work towards the balance some while after all classes are updated the PVP Arena mechanics being updated would be all that would be left.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

My answer to the OP is No, and especially No to dev time being spent on PvP instead of the PvE game.

Players are the key to spotting bugs, NPCs can't do any such thing............. therefore PVP may have merits in the process of finding Bugs to fix that effect PVE negatively.

[JOTMON]

I'll take your argument for cosmetics, besides since it wasn't obvious.... the rewards matter was just a cross between an example and suggestion but more so an example. Incentive is still incentive, I'll also agree with you that there are balance Issues.......

However........... if we were to run an experiment......

6 level 30 artificers Vs 6 level 30 Druids........ Which side would win and why?

DDO has recently had these two classes updated and I'd bet you they'd be pretty balanced against eachother in an Arena PVP fight.

As for the announced changes to favored soul and cleric classes..... they are making one better with Melee DPS while another better with resisting melee damage, sounds to me like the path SSG is already taking might work towards the balance some while after all classes are updated the PVP Arena mechanics being updated would be all that would be left.

Rewards from packs belong to the packs, PVP rewards should be unique to PVP'ing.

Artificer vs druids..
many shot barrage vs earthquakes/FOD. Druids would have to get close enough to cast anything and burn out the spell absorptions while the artificers decimate the druids from maximum range..


The unbalanced player power comes from all classes.. Greater ruin for 30k, insta kills, bard songs, excess of DPS over HP, … too many one shot kills and instant incapacitations...
Current PVP blocks a lot of aoe spells and trapping, invisibility/stealth doesn't work,..
not really pvp when the battles only last seconds..
PVP needs to extend out the battle for teamwork which would mean revamping all the classes across the board for PVP, Saves, DC's, HP, AC, damage, etc...

It would be a huge project that would end up with years of tweaking.
and really, I don't believe DDO players have the interest to sacrifice PVE game development to entertain PVP.

[Memnir]

Even with the edits and explanations... No.
PvP was shoehorned into the game with the Titan raid, and simply does not work with D&D/DDO mechanics. Thats why it's never been developed more, and had features like Leaderboards abandoned. The addition of team-PvP arenas a few updates later barely made a ripple in the game's consciousness. I would hazard a guess that most players weren't aware of it even back when it was introduced - let alone current players. And most that do, frankly don't care.

The efforts it would require to force any aspect of PvP to work better are efforts best spent on better parts of the game.

PvP should never be incentivized or rewarded beyond the bragging rights currently on offer, IMHO. Particularly not with materials or items associated with other parts of the game, particularly raids. And I say that as a person whose playstyle hasn't lent itself to raiding in a lot of years.

The only reward I'd be okay with for PvP would be unique cosmetic gear, ala Reaper wings. Even then, I don't think the effort expended on retooling PvP to make that a viable mechanic would be worth the time.


PvP is DDO is a footnote. An afterthought. A distraction. Are there folks who enjoy it? Sure. But, that doesn't change the fact that it's just not a good fit for this game. When I want to scratch the PvP itch, I happily play something else. Because in DDO, it will never be good enough, with all the bastardizations and alterations it would take to make it worthwhile, to be actually good.


So, again: No.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Rewards from packs belong to the packs, PVP rewards should be unique to PVP'ing.

Artificer vs druids..
many shot barrage vs earthquakes/FOD. Druids would have to get close enough to cast anything and burn out the spell absorptions while the artificers decimate the druids from maximum range..


The unbalanced player power comes from all classes.. Greater ruin for 30k, insta kills, bard songs, excess of DPS over HP, … too many one shot kills and instant incapacitations...
Current PVP blocks a lot of aoe spells and trapping, invisibility/stealth doesn't work,..
not really pvp when the battles only last seconds..
PVP needs to extend out the battle for teamwork which would mean revamping all the classes across the board for PVP, Saves, DC's, HP, AC, damage, etc...

It would be a huge project that would end up with years of tweaking.
and really, I don't believe DDO players have the interest to sacrifice PVE game development to entertain PVP.

Let me further this, the druids would have to primarily use the new druid tree while the artificers would have to primarily use the new artificer tree... meaning many of the artificers would be going Melee.

One of the problems with PVP is the lack of Max potential damage capping. If they simply disabled instant kill effects and created a PRR and MRR buff based primarily on how one player's health compares to the health of the other players, it could even out just by that alone so long as the math is done just right. Disabling ruin for PVP, disabling other effects as well might be a good call....

As a Melee Artificer I've beaten many ranged builds in the PVP arena, some of them being unable to beat me even once..... though this is not what you'd expect to be the case it is indeed what I've experienced.

But yeah, I agree that there is a lot to balance out here!

However, I maintain first and foremost one thing........... The PVP arena fights have a ton of untapped potential and are a ton of fun..... aside from this, I gladly leave everything else up to debate.

If SSG is successful in the class updates, PVP may become a bit more balanced naturally as a result and I'd wager that PVP statistics would be a good key towards not only pinpointing more precise locations of bugs in the game code, but also for properly prioritizing which class would get the next update.

[KingKoz]

Uuuuuh, PVP in DDO includes 6V6, it's not just 1 V 1

Step 1-Start gathering a party

Step 2-Take the party to a Tavern with a PVP arena

Step 3-Convert party to raid

Step 4-Place half the team on red team, half on blue team

Step 5-Cue for the arena

Step 6-Six Vs Six Arena fight

This functionality is already in the game

Yes, I know there is 6v6 pvp in DDO. I think you missed my point though. IMHO PvP shouldn't be in the game at all. The game was designed to be a party adventure to accomplish a task (complete a quest given by an NPC). Not find a bunch of friends and beat the shiite out of them to see who is best.

[Enerdhil]

It's a pure pleasure for me to read so many omniscient guys who knows exactly what the game is designed for, what should it contain and what are the other people expecting. I'm pretty sure they know it even better than creators. Gary Gygax didn't know what he's doing and the books should burn instantly when he wrote that it's even possible to swing a sword at other player. It's also pleasure to see such unity if we speak about blocking any changes, even if they could be positive for the game. I think we should make a game exactly for those players, cause empty servers proves that they're the only ones left.

Apart the honest sarcasm i support PVP improvements. Firstly - i'm not a fan of pvp at all, i never enjoyed it, i never really tryied it. But i know people who would love more of it and i'll be happy to see them enjoying the game. OF course a lot depends on the way those changes would be implemented: balance, reward system and stuff like that. Also much depends on how much effort it would require. For the price of one update i would take a shot: even semi-working pvp could bring some freshness, especially if it'll be instead of only one update with sloppily crafted quests. We've got plenty of those, especially the ones in "run once and forgot" type. It makes me laugh when ppl are yelling "we need more content" and then the same ppl go back to running von 3 and spies over and over again. Having something really new in game could kill some boredom and i'm 100% sure everyone would at least try this pvp once or twice despite forum whining that it's totally not worth implementing. Of course it's totally different thing if the community will enjoy the final shape of pvp changes, but personally i'd be looking forward to see them, cause this endless reincarnation, farming rxp, items etc grind is exhausting me more and more with every month of playing DDO. I would love to see something really new, not just endless waves of mobs. OP -don't let them outshout you, i get used to fact that ppl on this forum are not even trying to understand the others point of view and pvp threads are so rare... Keep bumping what you belive is cool.

PS: long, long ago i was playing other mmo game and their devs found a briliant way to fix the problem of balancing pvp. They've got few pvp events, but i'm talking about only one of them. Basically players were signing for the regular tournament (automated in game mechanic), i think it was a daily one, and after signing time runs out - each 20 players were teleported to a pvp area. Free for all, all names hidden. Everyone with the same character, same gear, skills etc, doesnt matter if the character you playing normally was lvl 1 or 100. Fight was like 10-15 min long with ability to respawn after few seconds after death, at the end the highest kill/death ratio per each 20players group wins. Through entire fight there were perks spawning randomly on map, like healing potions, sprint boosts or stuff that allows to use specific skills (in ddo it could be spell mats), we already got this mechanic in challanges. Maybe all of this doesnt sounds extremly exciting, but trust my words - it was extremly popular event. I see no reason to not make few small pvp maps, 1 default build for each class and let the players test their skills when there's no circumstanes other than maybe some luck with nearby boosts spawns. It could be also a team fight - for example each team 6 players, everyone roll for random default build, other team got the same one (for example both teams got 3 fighters, 1 sorc, 1 cler, 1 rog). I could see such an event working in ddo, maybe as a weekly event, with some interesting rewards to encourage (maybe even some AS for 1st place) and something like raid runes for everyone that could be exchanged for some stuff after taking part in tournament X times or even xp for the time spend in tournament (the game i'm talking about was also rewarding plalyers with xp based on the last logged in character level and achievements in tournament: for example lvl 50 character gets 50k xp, lvl 10 - 10k, but lvl 10 with good KDR gets 15k, and lvl 10 with bad one - only base 10k.)