Are Hagglebots Obsolete? Playable?

[Dulcimerist]

Long ago, before the enhancement overhaul, I made a Mississippi Queen Haggle Bard, which I'd consider an "iconic build" of DDO:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...sissippi-Queen

This character was really fun back in the day since it could both haggle AND be very playable, and I'd like to bring mine up to date (currently level 17). I see that Leslie updated that build in late 2013 with the new enhancement system, which looks pretty cool! I do have some questions:

Is having a hagglebot still worth it in today's DDO environment? Most of my loot gets ground up into crafting XP and materials. My harem of mid-level heroic characters aren't very wealthy, so saving platinum here and there would still make a difference. Or is platinum so much easier to come by in today's DDO, that it's silly to be a penny pincher?

Are hagglebots still viable to play? Dropping the haggle feats would be a must in that case, which isn't a huge loss to the character's haggling abilities.

Some time has gone by since Leslie updated Mississippi Queen. Are there any new enhancements or changes in DDO which would affect or update that build?

What "style" of haggle bard might be most welcome in groups? Crowd control, party buffer, sonic direct damage, healer, or melee? (Mine had been built to crowd control, but I'm unsure if bard cc is still as good as it used to be.)

I modeled my haggle bard after legendary funk bassist Bootsy Collins, so I do have to keep this character a bard.

Thanks for the input and advice!

[EllisDee37]

Hagglebots aren't needed because plat is plentiful and largely devalued anyway.

For context, my evasion paladin wasn't built for haggle in any way, and yet his haggle when I extend my guild's cargo hold buffs is higher than the linked hagglebot. (Equipping a cannith crafted +33 haggle hat sure doesn't hurt!)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Long ago, before the enhancement overhaul, I made a Mississippi Queen Haggle Bard, which I'd consider an "iconic build" of DDO:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...sissippi-Queen

This character was really fun back in the day since it could both haggle AND be very playable, and I'd like to bring mine up to date (currently level 17). I see that Leslie updated that build in late 2013 with the new enhancement system, which looks pretty cool! I do have some questions:

Is having a hagglebot still worth it in today's DDO environment? Most of my loot gets ground up into crafting XP and materials. My harem of mid-level heroic characters aren't very wealthy, so saving platinum here and there would still make a difference. Or is platinum so much easier to come by in today's DDO, that it's silly to be a penny pincher?

Are hagglebots still viable to play? Dropping the haggle feats would be a must in that case, which isn't a huge loss to the character's haggling abilities.

Some time has gone by since Leslie updated Mississippi Queen. Are there any new enhancements or changes in DDO which would affect or update that build?

What "style" of haggle bard might be most welcome in groups? Crowd control, party buffer, sonic direct damage, healer, or melee? (Mine had been built to crowd control, but I'm unsure if bard cc is still as good as it used to be.)

I modeled my haggle bard after legendary funk bassist Bootsy Collins, so I do have to keep this character a bard.

Thanks for the input and advice!

Hagglebots were never required. Today, with in game gold completely devalued and nowhere nearly as exclusive as back in 2008 when I first posted the build, its not beneficial for most guilds to possess one. I offered my services to many of our guild healers back in the day for steep discounts on healing pots/scrolls and all kinds of costly items.

You can still build for haggle and get your discounts. Mississippee was still able to completely control the battlefield. Solo and group heal any raid in the game. Ive dropped the haggle feats and enhancements as I still get a plenty high haggle, and I add a bunch. Still a CC monster. You could leave in the haggle stuff and build around it. I decided to remove them.

Mississippee is still played and is still my favorite character to play (among my 20 something characters).

Its all about how you build and play it. In the right hands and with the right mindset, if you love CC, my build still kicks ass in any content. It works even better in a guild, or with a group that appreciates the buffs and healing along with your ability to mess with the minds of the enemies.

In fact, I'd say because of all the epic build candy after 20... you can create a very beneficial bard that can make your party better --- and make enemies swear you name as they dance.

Miss is the ultimate Conscientious Objector. She's not a killer... but this allows her to focus on everything else. That's what makes her so fun to play for ME. That's what makes her so valuable to a group.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Hagglebots aren't needed because plat is plentiful and largely devalued anyway.

For context, my evasion paladin wasn't built for haggle in any way, and yet his haggle when I extend my guild's cargo hold buffs is higher than the linked hagglebot. (Equipping a cannith crafted +33 haggle hat sure doesn't hurt!)

LOL! As opposed to popular belief, I never did build Missisippee for maximum haggle. I had well over 100 haggle at one point, but I never bothered adding it all up because there was already a max haggle thread at the time. Although I'll admit I did get a contact high whenever I was told I was useless to a party and then wind up either blowing their minds when they realized CC was so powerful, their healing was taken care of it and they were hitting for more DPS and they were casting longer.... etc etc. (Or ressing them because they thought they could Leeroooy it and got Jenkinsed!!)

But to the OP, or anyone else reading, anyone that's played a bard for years will tell you that most of the time in PUGS, the other party members either have no idea what you are contributing to the party, or they don't give a rats arse. So playing a bard is for those of thick skin in PUGS but they are still a welcome addition to many of those those wise enough to know what you are capable of doing!

[EllisDee37]

LOL! As opposed to popular belief, I never did build Missisippee for maximum haggle. I had well over 100 haggle at one point, but I never bothered adding it all up because there was already a max haggle thread at the time.

I was commenting on power creep in the game, not criticizing your build.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I was commenting on power creep in the game, not criticizing your build.

I appreciate that El. Totally agree with you.. Just adding context.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

What "style" of haggle bard might be most welcome in groups? Crowd control, party buffer, sonic direct damage, healer, or melee? (Mine had been built to crowd control, but I'm unsure if bard cc is still as good as it used to be.)

The bard you like playing the most is the bard thats most welcome in groups. Your ability to multitask and utilize all your abilities are what makes one a great bard. If you like it and understand it... bards freakin' Rock... pun intended!

Are bards as good as before? Hell I think they are MORE useful. More powerful mobs... if you can dominate THEM, thats thousands more hitpoints and spellpoints saved on your side of your party's fence.

Just remember, CC is ALL OR NOTHING. Max Spell Pen and Max DC ---> Go Big or Go home! Playstyle? I am RELENTLESS with my CC game when I play Miss.

[MeliCat]

Hmmm... i really should fix mine before i complain about being broke all the time

http://m.ddowiki.com/page/Haggle

(Even better he's a chest blesser)

Every so often I amuse myself wondering if I could macro him to crunch stuff but that would be counter intuitive to him being a hagglebot.

[Grandern_Marn]

I never got into making a dedicated hagglebot as I started playing DDO at just before the time that Astral Shards were introduced to the game. Moving things around between characters just didn't seem advantageous when weighing the benefits vs. time it took to move items around. I don't think I had the shared bank for a while either.

I do pinch copper pieces though as I am not sitting on bank characters with maxed out platinum piles stored away. I find that when I'm playing a a character in Heroics a lot my platinum total will dwindle with a big plat purchase here and there, then when playing a character in Epics I'll increase my platinum totals overall. The introduction of Astral Shards did have an affect on the value of platinum in game and I would imagine the prices of items in the Platinum Auction are much higher now than they were before the introduction of Shards. The most valuable in game items are also sold more often on the Shard Auction. You can still find good items on the Platinum Auction though and the prices can be extremely high.

I still find I am in need of platinum and at times character totals will go down to 100k or 200k which I keep as an absolute bottom point in case I need to buy a stack of rez scrolls or other material. To help build up totals I'll keep Haggle Skill boost items on all characters. When I do a sell of unneeded items from the backpack I will switch up all items that I need.

I do not go all out with feats or use all possible items out there but I will try to have the following items ready for all characters if applicable:
- the best usable luck boost item
- the best usable haggle skill boost item
- the best usable charisma boost item(s) (I usually only bother with the main Enhancement charisma boost and don't go out of my way with Quality or Insight bonuses etc. - you could squeeze out some more plat here)
- Heroism or Greater Heroism clicky, scroll or potion (For GH, a clicky is preferable as pots are hard to come by and scrolls cost 165 plat each, for heroism I'll usually have a stack of pots on all toons and I'll use that instead of prioritizing a heroism clicky for each toon. The heroism pot costs 5plat each but meh)
- the Battered Marketplace Shield (Chronoscope raid end reward, gives a +3 to Haggle and is usable from level 1, I have one on each of my 4 main characters)
- Enhancement tree skill boost clicky (usually will have that for a Rogue character)
- Charisma boost Yugoloth potions (I'll only drink one of these if the amount of platinum gained is of greater value than the cost of the potion itself)
* If you can get to Eveningstar, do your selling at the 4 vendors in the middle there, it will boost your total sale by about 10% on top of everything else

These boosts can be used on purchases also so I'll switch over when I buy a big ticket items like a stack of resurrection scrolls or Yugoloth pots.

I did a little testing and in epics with the gear set on I will boost sales numbers by 30-50 percent. This is a pretty wide margin but a lot can depend on the level and if the character is charisma based. I compared a level 26 Warlock and level 30 Artificer with some sales and found the level 26 charisma based Warlock had a boost of 32% and the level 30 Artificer had a 48% increase in platinum returns on items sold. When making the same sell at the Eveningstar vendors as noted above, the percentage totals went up to about 60 percent and 70 percent respectively. I don't have full sale numbers to go by but on a character at level 30 I will boost platinum on an average sell from 30k up to 50k. It's a nice boost and adds up when your running a lot of content.
Again, you could squeeze out more but I'll do what I can without having to carry around too much extra gear, dedicate any feats to haggle skill or transfer all items for sale to another character.

Players just starting out to the game will have difficulties with platinum. My advice is to get one character to Epics as soon as reasonably possible and keep an eye out for items to add to your haggle skill set to boost sales.

[Dulcimerist]

Thanks for all the input!

It sounds as though haggle is still fairly useful, although not like it used to be. As I'm beginning to quest more actively, I'm dumping most of my loot into the shared bank for my crafter to grind and my haggler to vendor the ungrindable. That system seems to work for me.

Are all guild vendor items BtA, or do some of those end up being BtC? Back when I was super active, I seem to remember using my haggle bard to stock up on BtA hirelings for all of my characters, but may have gotten burned when trying to buy guild potions that ended up being BtC.

I'm glad to hear that bard CC is still viable! My other bard is a warchanter-swashbuckler party buffer with decent melee DPS. I'd like to do something different with the haggle bard. Is bard CC button-intensive, requiring quick keyboard coordination? Is bard CC difficult to do effectively in a zerg group? How does a CC build hold up in solo play? Any thoughts on a bard geared toward direct damage through sonic spells? Although these build questions might seem a bit off-topic to haggling, they're relevant since I'd need to have the haggle specialist as effective (and fun to play!) in quests as possible in order to make it to level 30. CC or a sonic damage spell dealer sound like two fun options.

The dedicated maximum haggle hagglebots of the past seem to have passed into obsolescence, replaced by the haggle specialist who haggles as much as possible without sacrificing its ability to be an effective quester.

Thanks again!

[unbongwah]

The difference between a max-CHA Spellsinger and a max-CHA Spellsinger with all four Haggle-boosting feats (two heroic, one epic, one ED, excluding Epic Skills) is only +13 Haggle. Add +3 from human Negotiator and +3 from SS Charlatan, you're up to +19, which is almost a 5% increase in sell value. Doesn't really seem worth it to me in the current DDO metagame. Especially since it seems like the issue isn't a lack of plat, it's a lack of things you want which are still being sold for plat. Everything of real value seems to wind up on the Shard Exchange instead and has for years.

Just play a regular Spellsinger; if you want, pick up DM of Finding. Chest-blessing probably does more to improve your bottom line and doesn't require as much of an investment.

[Dulcimerist]

Just play a regular Spellsinger; if you want, pick up DM of Finding. Chest-blessing probably does more to improve your bottom line and doesn't require as much of an investment.

That's just one feat now, instead of three like it used to be. One feat for DM of Finding shouldn't water down a CC SS bard too bad. The whole party benefits from chest blessing, as well. Thanks for the advice!

[unbongwah]

I haven't tried to put together a Spellsinger purely as a support build (enchants / heals / buffs / chestblesser) in a long while, so let's see how this goes.

Tharashk Spellsinger
Bard 20
True Neutral Human


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength         8       +4       4: CHA
Dexterity        8       +4       8: CHA
Constitution    18       +4      12: CHA
Intelligence    12       +4      16: CHA
Wisdom           8       +4      20: CHA
Charisma        18       +4      24: CHA
                                 28: CHA

Skills
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Perform   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Concent   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spellcr   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Diplo        2     2     2  1  3  1  2     2     2     2     2     2  23
Swim      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Tumble    4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Haggle    4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
UMD       4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Heal      2     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     11
Balance                              1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  11
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         32  9  9  9  9  9 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10


Feats

 1        : Quicken Spell
 1 Human  : Least Dragonmark: Finding
 3        : Empower Healing Spell OR Maximize Spell
 6        : Spell Focus: Enchantment
 9        : Heighten Spell
12        : Completionist OR Past Life: Wizard
15        : Spell Penetration
18        : Greater Spell Penetration OR Empower Spell
21 Epic   : Epic Spell Penetration OR Wellspring of Power
24 Epic   : Inspire Excellence
26 Destiny: Lasting Inspiration OR Epic Spell Power: Positive
27 Epic   : Ruin OR Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Hellball OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Arcane Pulse OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Greater Ruin OR Intensify Spell
30 Legend : Scion of: Feywild


Spells

Otto's Resistible Dance, Hypnotism, Sonic Blast, Focusing Chant, <Any>
Soundburst, Hypnotic Pattern, Glitterdust, Rage, <Any>
Haste, Displacement, Crushing Despair, <Any>, <Any>
Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Freedom of Movement, Cure Critical Wounds, Dimension Door, <Any>
Mass Suggestion, Mind Fog, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
Mass Charm Monster, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Greater Shout, Otto's Irresistible Dance


Enhancements (80+1 AP)

Spellsinger (48 AP)
Spellsinger, Music of the Sewers, Music of the Dead, Music of the Makers, Virtuoso, Maestro of Life and Death
Studies: Magical III, Sonic Blast III
Suggestion III, Marigold Crown: Yellow
Enthrallment, Shout III, Spell Song Trance, Charisma
Sustaining Song, Spell Penetration III, Frolic, Song of Arcane Might
Song of Capering, Prodigy III, Spell Song Vigor, Mass Hold III

Warchanter (14 AP)
Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism
Inspired Bravery III, Poetic Edda I
Arcane Shield Chant III, Sprint Boost I
Ironskin Chant III

Human (12 AP)
Spell Power Boost, Charisma
Dragonmark Focus: Tharashk III, Improved Recovery
Lesser Dragonmark: Knock
Greater Dragonmark: Treasure Finding

Swashbuckler (7 AP)
Confidence
On Your Toes I, Tavern Shanties III
Fast Movement


Destiny (24 AP)

Fatesinger
Music of the Spider Queen, Dirge III, Charisma
Masked Ball II
Siren's Song III, Aria III, Echoes of Arcane
(none)
Bound Fate III, Fragment of Clarity II
Grim Fate III

Twists of Fate (35 fate points)
Energy Burst: Electricity (Tier 4 Draconic)
Piercing Spellcraft (Tier 3 Magister)
School Specialist: Enchantment (Tier 2 Magister)
Brace for Impact (Tier 1 Sentinel)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

I know Magister or Exalted Angel makes more sense for a DC caster, but I feel bad for how long Fatesinger has been neglected.

[Grandern_Marn]

Thanks for all the input!

...As I'm beginning to quest more actively, I'm dumping most of my loot into the shared bank for my crafter to grind and my haggler to vendor the ungrindable.
That system seems to work for me....

Yep, I try to maximize sales returns while on the fly.

I am also half trying to increase my crafters levels while maintaining a certain amount of platinum.
I'll sell everything that is less than level 30 and keep a character at cap for level 30 items which I'll pass to my crafter to grind up.
Level 30 items will give you the best return (about 25-40 Crafting Essences) and then you're not spending excessive amounts of time and storage space to grind up level 5 items for 3 Crafting Essences or so.