Reaper XP

[FranOhmsford]

What is this "True reincarnation Penalty"?

I'd like to know that too as I've never heard of such a thing?

Do you mean Epic Reincarnation Penalty Devs?

[SirValentine]

A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.

That's a really weird example to give, considering a level 20 character cannot even step into a base-level 18 (or 19) quest on Reaper. You know, the lock-out?

I was slightly relieved that a level 20 character can actually run Heroic level 20 quests on Reaper. But that's probably a bug in your lock-out code.

[Jasparion]

Greetings!

1.) We multiply the base XP by a factor for dungeon length.

• Short dungeons have a multiplier of 0.9
• Medium dungeons have a multiplier of 1.0
• Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.1
• Very Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.2
Sev~

This is the only bit I would like looked at. Already there is a big problem with XP when a 10 minute quest can give you up to 20k XP, but there are plenty of 30 and 40 minute quests which give as little as 20k XP as well.

If you are able to modify XP based on length, then I would think:

• Short dungeons have a multiplier of 0.8
• Medium dungeons have a multiplier of 1.0
• Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.2
• Very Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.4

Is far more reasonable. Some "Short" dungeons are done inside a minute or 2. Some "Very Long" dungeons can take 40 minutes or more... and on Reaper will take an hour. I really think there should be encouragement for those Very Long dungeons - particularly because you guys put so much work in to them !

Cheers.

[Amundir]

I'm assuming by the "True Reincarnation XP penalty" they mean how you need more xp to level for 2nd life, and even more xp for 3rd life. Only thing I can think of.

[bracelet]

I'm assuming by the "True Reincarnation XP penalty" they mean how you need more xp to level for 2nd life, and even more xp for 3rd life. Only thing I can think of.

Yea, but those are fixed variations in the curves. They have never been considered penalties. Nor have I ever received a lower amount of xp from a quest based on the number of past lives a toon has. This is a mystery.

[FranOhmsford]

Yea, but those are fixed variations in the curves. They have never been considered penalties. Nor have I ever received a lower amount of xp from a quest based on the number of past lives a toon has. This is a mystery.

It might be the ransack penalty carrying through Epic Reincarnations the Devs are talking about.

[Cordovan]

I'm assuming by the "True Reincarnation XP penalty" they mean how you need more xp to level for 2nd life, and even more xp for 3rd life. Only thing I can think of.

Correct, this is referring to the increased XP needed when leveling up after undergoing a True Reincarnation. Whether it is a penalty or just more XP needed is up for interpretation, but how it applies to Reaper XP is more punitive in that it requires more XP, for now.

[Doctorivil]

Reaper Experience starts with a base formula as follows:

50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls)

Sev~

Nice to see some Dev confirmation on this. I came up with the formula a couple of days ago and shared it in another thread.
It's good to see we got it right.

[Cantor]

That's a really weird example to give, considering a level 20 character cannot even step into a base-level 18 (or 19) quest on Reaper. You know, the lock-out?

I was slightly relieved that a level 20 character can actually run Heroic level 20 quests on Reaper. But that's probably a bug in your lock-out code.

According to Sev in this post you should be able to!

"A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount."

[Thanimal]

Good information. The corrections should help some. Modifiers for length should be greater. A very long quest can take 5-10x longer than a short one. Based on these multipliers chaining short quests is the best return. In the end, I think we'll find the XP amounts are still too small and need to be moved out a decimal point.

Yes, that.

I know feedback is prone to exaggeration, but I honestly think the Reaper XP needs at least a factor of 10 increase in order for me to be interested. I was just all proud of myself for completing Lords of Dust on Reaper1 as a 27, and then I got a good laugh when I realized I would have to do 46 such quests in order to get ONE Reaper point. (And Velosity is on her first life.)

For me personally, that number can't be any more than 5 for me to be interested in it. And thus the 10x increase required. Honestly, I'd prefer 20x.

Of course, I do not know the goals nor intended audience for this feature. I only know if the goal is to get ME interested in doing lots of Reaper quests, then there has to be dramatically more tangible progress from doing so.

[Faltout]

Greetings!

We have had some questions about how Reaper XP is calculated, so I wanted to post some details about how we award it.

Or how you should be awarding it. Let's see in detail.

~ Like normal experience points, Reaper XP inherited the True Reincarnation experience penalty. We have had inquiries into this from players and internal discussion, and we agree that this not only makes little sense, but unduly penalizes long term characters. We are removing this penalty for an upcoming patch or hotfix.

What is the True Reincarnation penalty? It's not actually a penalty, just a higher requirement of xp per level?
So, up to this point, we believed that the reaper xp requirement was 1000 * (reaper_point ^ 2). Meaning 1st point at 1000 rxp, 2nd at 4000, 3rd at 9000 and so on.
Are you saying that this is only for legend characters? Because that's not true. A first life character still has a 1000 rxp requirement to get point 1, when it should be 500. Half of what a legend character requires.

Reaper Experience starts with a base formula as follows:

50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls)

Base Challenge Rating of the dungeon is what exactly?
Currently, the base reaper xp is:
50 + 3 * dungeon level on elite * number of skulls

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the effective challenge rating, like normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on elite, not the base challenge rating (in other words, the rating for Normal). As an example, a level 31 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 33; we use the 33 as the comparison.

Our tests clearly show that the comparison is made against the normal level of the dungeon. Meaning a level 14 dungeon on Reaper (like Inferno of the Damned) allows up to level 14 players without penalties, while on Elite it allows up to level 16 players without penalties.
Bug?

A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.

So, epic characters (level 20) CAN enter heroic dungeons?

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.

Our tests clearly show that currently this is a multiplier to all xp. And it doesn't even show up on the experience report.

First, if this is your first time completing this dungeon on Reaper mode we apply a 200% bonus. Like other XP bonuses, this bonus is not a multiplier to total Reaper XP, but rather an addition of 200% of the base Reaper XP.

You mean to say:
Reaper xp is increased by the +120% first time on reaper bonus, the 30% reaper bravery bonus and the 50% bravery streak bonus, which happen to add to a +200% bonus for most players.

8.) Reaper XP is modified by various progress made in the dungeon.

• Players get the monsters killed bonus.
• Players get the chests looted bonus.
• Players get the traps disabled bonus.
• Players get the secret doors found bonus.
• Players get the breakables smashed bonus.

There is a "chests looted" bonus? How does this work and where can we see it?

[Elfishski]

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the effective challenge rating, like normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on elite, not the base challenge rating (in other words, the rating for Normal). As an example, a level 31 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 33; we use the 33 as the comparison.

A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.

As a bunch of other people have said, that's not how it says it in the release notes or what anyone is experiencing in play, in terms of using the modified elite level rather than the base level. Personally I like it using the base level as seemingly implemented, and I think people can be reminded that because the formula is almost linear then if they'd like doing Reaper 1 at base level for "full" xp they can get almost the same xp if they do Reaper 2 at 2 levels higher (elite BB level) rather than complaining about losing half their xp.

4.) Reaper XP is modified for repetition. This is basically the Reaper version of the Ransack bonus.

First, if this is your first time completing this dungeon on Reaper mode we apply a 200% bonus. Like other XP bonuses, this bonus is not a multiplier to total Reaper XP, but rather an addition of 200% of the base Reaper XP.

If this is not your first time completing the dungeon, then we apply the same ransack penalties to Reaper XP that we would for normal XP.

I like this idea in principle and it doesn't effect my characters particularly either way, but in practise it overly incentives TRing. Rather than a first time bonus I'd like to see higher base XP but a long lasting repetition/ransack penalty so that players sitting at cap can repeat legendary quests every 3 days for the full amount.

So Reaper XP is based off of the modified effective level of elite, not the Normal effective level? Cause, if I'm not mistaken, we had a whole discussion in
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-clarification
talking about how it was based off of the Normal effective level.

Yes, clarification didn't clarify clearly.

This is the only bit I would like looked at. Already there is a big problem with XP when a 10 minute quest can give you up to 20k XP, but there are plenty of 30 and 40 minute quests which give as little as 20k XP as well.

If you are able to modify XP based on length, then I would think:

• Short dungeons have a multiplier of 0.8
• Medium dungeons have a multiplier of 1.0
• Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.2
• Very Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.4

Is far more reasonable. Some "Short" dungeons are done inside a minute or 2. Some "Very Long" dungeons can take 40 minutes or more... and on Reaper will take an hour. I really think there should be encouragement for those Very Long dungeons - particularly because you guys put so much work in to them !

Cheers.

Agreed. Also these modifiers are mostly relevant only in the earlier levels because after a certain point nearly every quest is marked as Very Long.

Yes, that.

I know feedback is prone to exaggeration, but I honestly think the Reaper XP needs at least a factor of 10 increase in order for me to be interested. I was just all proud of myself for completing Lords of Dust on Reaper1 as a 27, and then I got a good laugh when I realized I would have to do 46 such quests in order to get ONE Reaper point. (And Velosity is on her first life.)

For me personally, that number can't be any more than 5 for me to be interested in it. And thus the 10x increase required. Honestly, I'd prefer 20x.

Of course, I do not know the goals nor intended audience for this feature. I only know if the goal is to get ME interested in doing lots of Reaper quests, then there has to be dramatically more tangible progress from doing so.

Disagreed, your problem is that you're running at the maximum level over the quest there and taking a 95% penalty to all your xp. If you ran Lords of Dust at level 21 on Reaper 1 you would get 20x the xp and be in the ballpark of what you're asking for. If it's too hard solo at that level, find some friends or puggers and then you'll feel the tangible progress. Or seeing as you're level 27 already, run stormhorns on Reaper 1 and you'll get your first pip after a couple of quests.

[Vish]

Reaper xp
Sev,
The number 3
That's kinda what this game is based on
It's been the mantra since this game came out
Basically that's there's a 3 range with groups
It's expanded in epics to 10
That's a power leveling scheme
But it works wonders for the lfm
Now, you got reaper
And the number is zero
You gotta run all group at level
That's killing us
Yea, it's making it hella tough
I congratulate you on that
But things aren't working as you promised
The range was supposed to be +2
Which woulda made it say 3, 30, 29, 28
That's what I was expecting
Ya it's gonna take some time to shake out
Everyone tring until the new raid
Jumping on the reaper wagon
But you've doubled down on the challenge
We gotta run at level over EE. In all cases that really means underlevel. Even steeper curve.
And there just ain't the people for it. You're basically asking us to short man too. That's the third step in difficulty.

I would fix the xp penalty for level immediately.
I think there is shock going on, I'm seeing fewer people on.
Maybe you should release some population numbers,
Because things seemed to have evaporated shortly.
It would do us well to know the game is thriving,
But I just don't see it.
I regularly pug and run some groups, and I see everyone switching back to EE runs.?*
You're making it too hard to reap with friends.

I could offer other suggestions, but I just wanted to voice my concern.?*I know you guys can handle it.
Thanks.

[EllisDee37]

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the effective challenge rating, like normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on elite, not the base challenge rating (in other words, the rating for Normal). As an example, a level 31 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 33; we use the 33 as the comparison.

That's not how it works. Reaper XP penalties are based on the quest level on normal, not elite. The players think it should be based on elite, and you're saying here that it's based on elite, but it's not. It's based on normal. It'd be awesome if you could fix that.

A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.

This seems like a spiteful example to use. Level 20s are not allowed to run level 18 quests on reaper because of the lockout you implemented at the last minute before U34 went live.

• Players get the chests looted bonus.

There is no chests looted bonus to xp in the game. There are, however, two bonuses you didn't list: +10% Persistence (no re-entries) and +10% Flawless (no deaths). Do those apply?

9.) Reaper XP is reduced for a player's True Reincarnation penalty. This will be removed in a future patch.

There is no True Reincarnation penalty. Everyone gets the same heroic & epic XP regardless what life they are on.

[blerkington]

That's not how it works. Reaper XP penalties are based on the quest level on normal, not elite. The players think it should be based on elite, and you're saying here that it's based on elite, but it's not. It's based on normal. It'd be awesome if you could fix that.

This seems like a spiteful example to use. Level 20s are not allowed to run level 18 quests on reaper because of the lockout you implemented at the last minute before U34 went live.

There is no chests looted bonus to xp in the game. There are, however, two bonuses you didn't list: +10% Persistence (no re-entries) and +10% Flawless (no deaths). Do those apply?

There is no True Reincarnation penalty. Everyone gets the same heroic & epic XP regardless what life they are on.

Exactly. With all the errors and contradictory statements we've had from SSG staff about how reaper xp works, I have lost track of what is WAI and what is bugged. Even for SSG, the standard of communication on this topic has been appallingly bad.

I also have a couple of suggestions.

First, get your facts straight so you can provide an accurate and comprehensive explanation of how reaper xp is supposed to work. Only then will we be able to report what isn't working properly. It feels like we are going around in circles with this, and it's a waste of our time and good will.

Second, start a discussion with the community about what improvements could be made to make this system work better for more of your players, in good faith so that changes will be made rather than it being just a pretence to placate us. There have been so many good suggestions on the forums and right now it seems like they are all being ignored.

Thanks.

[cru121]

what you think you implemented

So is this about some Turbine mobile game? Because Reaper in DDO does not work that way.

[cru121]

Adding to Faltout's list.

12.) If this is the first quest you have run today, you get the same bonus to Reaper XP that you would get to normal XP.

You meant to say: If you have not run the quest recently (in the last 18 or 24h), you get a +20% Daily bonus.

[Seikojin]

Thanks for the info! It is quite convoluted!

[Eryhn]

very confused by TR peanlty thing.


well confused MOST by that. other stuff also confusing.

[Dandonk]

Thanks for trying to sort all this out, but I'm not sure I'm much more informed now. Some contradicts earlier statements, some contradicts how it appears to be working in-game (see faltout) , and some is just flat out confusing since I have no idea what is meant (chests looted bonus? TR penalty?).