Cleric Pass Ideas

[Tlorrd]

ok as cleric pass is now slightly visible on the horizon, meaning 2018 most likely ... I'll start posting a few changes that I, we, or whoever would like to see and update this first post accordingly as the discussion flows. We can talk about anything from class benefits, domains, spells, turn undead, etc. A healthy discussion will hopefully bring together best ideas that devs may not have considered and may now consider ...

1. Cleric class
- it's very feat starved
- I'd propose giving a few feats to clerics at various levels like Ranger gets or have a pool of feats that clerics can choose from.

Cleric level 3 feat granted Empower Healing
Cleric level 6 feat granted Extra Turning
Cleric level 12 feat granted Improved Turning

I'd change Improved Turning to be +2 to effective turning level, +4 to total HD, and +4 to maximum HD. This is similar to Aureon's Instruction, but a Turn specialist could take advantage of this while another type of cleric (battle cleric could have some benefit so that they get some benefit.)


I will update and collate this thread with everyone's ideas as the discussion continues ... thus I cite credit for all of this to you all and appreciate your input.

[Tlorrd]

Domains ... reserved.

Cleric Domains

Air Domain
Animal Domain
Chaos Domain
Death Domain
Destruction Domain
Earth Domain
Evil Domain
Fire Domain
Good Domain
Healing Domain
Knowledge Domain
Law Domain
Luck Domain
Magic Domain
Plant Domain
Protection Domain
Strength Domain
Sun Domain
Travel Domain
Trickery Domain
War Domain
Water Domain

[Tlorrd]

Enhancement Trees ... reserved.

Warpriest
- add melee power to cores/enhancements
- add Wis to hit/dmg to cores/enhancements
- have Cores give melee/ranged power vs spell power?
- change Sacred Touch to grant +3/+6/+10 PRR/MRR on healing spell
- add Battletide SLA
- add Righteous Might SLA
- Divine Vessel to be metamagicked or scale better with melee power

Radiant Servant
- change radiant aura to either T4 enhancement or level 12 core
- add DCs for Conjuration, Enchantment, and Abjuration
- add SLAs, options include: Heal, Panacea, Close Wounds, Holy Aura, Cometfall, Defiec Vengeance

Divine Disciple
-

[Tlorrd]

Spells ... reserved.

- Seek Eternal Rest ... change from static +4 to +1 per 3 character levels.
- Add earthquake to spell list

[Tlorrd]

Turn Undead ... reserved.

- add Rebuke or Command undead as possible alternative uses to Turn Undead, possibly alignment dependent
- possibly change stat bonus to Wis instead of Cha
- change Seek Eternal Rest spell to scale
- improve Improve Turn Undead feat and possibly grant this feat to clerics at level 12
- grant Extra Turning to Cleric at level 6
- allow Might Turning to be a toggle so that sometimes when you wish to keep undead cowered rather than dead is an option

[Tlorrd]

Reserved

[Tlorrd]

Reserved.

[DrWily]

A lot of this is basically a copy paste from the tree review thread, but I do have a few new ideas.

For domains, I really expected Shar to be an obvious choice, but seeing as she would only really fit for Shadar-kai it'd probably just be exclusive.

For feats or special/unique abilities, the choice to rebuke & command undead for non-good clerics instead of turning them. This was one of my favorites back in pnp.

For Warpriest I'm still standing with my old argument that it needs the same treatment that was given to Henshin. Change the spellpower bonuses to melee power and change what currently scales with spellpower (or nothing) to scale with melee power instead. Add PRR to the cores as well, because it'll be needed.
For Divine Disciple, change Divine Vitality so you can use it on yourself and it might be worth taking. Either change Necrotic Bolt to scale with spellpower or replace it with something that does. I wouldn't mind it being replaced with Lesser Death Aura, same thing for Mass Inflict and Death Aura on the T5.
For Radiant Servant, Divine Cleansing, Bliss, Divine Healing, Martyrdom, Intense Healing, Incredible Healing, and Endless Turning could be bumped down from 2AP per rank to 1AP per rank, that way it isn't as limiting going up for PosAura.

[SirValentine]

Finish implementing basic class features: Domains.
Fix bugged Cleric spells that are already in the game but erroneously missing from Cleric spell list. E.g., Earthquake.
Give RS & DD need some tweaking (reduce some costs from 2 to 1, capstones, etc.) to bring them in line with other post-pass trees, but not complete overhauls. (I don't know enough to comment on WP.)

Do something (not sure what) about Turn Undead in Epic; it's fine in Heroic.

Done. No non-D&D free feats needed.

[Tlorrd]

Finish implementing basic class features: Domains.
Fix bugged Cleric spells that are already in the game but erroneously missing from Cleric spell list. E.g., Earthquake.
Give RS & DD need some tweaking (reduce some costs from 2 to 1, capstones, etc.) to bring them in line with other post-pass trees, but not complete overhauls. (I don't know enough to comment on WP.)

Do something (not sure what) about Turn Undead in Epic; it's fine in Heroic.

Done. No non-D&D free feats needed.

can you give an example on some domains and what types of things would be implemented? I know some of the lore and how it was implemented in other games, but I'm not an expert by any means.

[SirValentine]

can you give an example on some domains and what types of things would be implemented? I know some of the lore and how it was implemented in other games, but I'm not an expert by any means.

"Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells

A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected."

List of core domains (from Player's Handbook; various splat books added more):
Air Domain
Animal Domain
Chaos Domain
Death Domain
Destruction Domain
Earth Domain
Evil Domain
Fire Domain
Good Domain
Healing Domain
Knowledge Domain
Law Domain
Luck Domain
Magic Domain
Plant Domain
Protection Domain
Strength Domain
Sun Domain
Travel Domain
Trickery Domain
War Domain
Water Domain

Descriptions of domains, with spell lists & powers, are here.

[Selvera]

For Warpriest I'm still standing with my old argument that it needs the same treatment that was given to Henshin. Change the spellpower bonuses to melee power and change what currently scales with spellpower (or nothing) to scale with melee power instead. Add PRR to the cores as well, because it'll be needed.
For Divine Disciple, change Divine Vitality so you can use it on yourself and it might be worth taking. Either change Necrotic Bolt to scale with spellpower or replace it with something that does. I wouldn't mind it being replaced with Lesser Death Aura, same thing for Mass Inflict and Death Aura on the T5.
For Radiant Servant, Divine Cleansing, Bliss, Divine Healing, Martyrdom, Intense Healing, Incredible Healing, and Endless Turning could be bumped down from 2AP per rank to 1AP per rank, that way it isn't as limiting going up for PosAura.

While it may seem strange since I was in support of Henshin using melee power instead of spellpower, I do not think warpriest should be the same. The reason is simple; Henshin is a tree in a class that does not have spells and does have attacks and finishers which scale with melee power. Warpriest is a tree in classes which have spells (both offensive and defensive) and does not have any special attacks which scale with melee power. Therefore Wapriest should have spellpower bonuses and should have melee attacks which scale with both melee power and spellpower (I'm thinking arcane-archer style melee attacks here).

I think warpriest's cores are currently very frontloaded and in general don't scale well up into epic elite and harder difficulties. I also feel like warpriest as a tree has a lot of room for extra abilities and removal buffing or changing of current bad abilities. Looking back; I agree with a lot of what I said here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ight=Warpriest Despite how long ago that was.

If I were to make newer changes, they would be these:
- Allowing the bonus damage on smite to critical or spell critical
- Perhaps buff up the tier-5 riotous weapons to be not as far behind newer tier 5's which seem to have +3 to damage and healthy amounts of melee power bonuses etc.
- Reduce the core 1 to just +1 AC, but increase the cores 4, 5 and 6 to +3 AC each.
- In light of SSG's move to remove %weapon damage boosts, I might consider switching the core 6 from 10% damage boost to +20 melee and ranged power, +40 universal spell-power.
- I would consider buffing sacred touch even more then I did.
- Add a note that Divine Vessel should be allowed to use meta-magics and that it should target an area around the target of the attack, as opposed to an area around the warpriest (slight buff to bow-clerics if they go warpriest).

[EllisDee37]

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells

On the one hand, my cleric would LOVE domains. It would be an awesome addition to the game. On the other hand, I cringe at the thought of having to add domains to my character builder.

It occurs to me that the devs may feel similarly.

[SirValentine]

...I cringe at the thought of having to add domains to my character builder.

It occurs to me that the devs may feel similarly.

They've had 10+ years to figure it out. While it took them long enough, but they did eventually get pets & shape-changing in the game.

[Vish]

You know, I'm old scool player
Never heard of domains
To me, that's just cleric using his spell selection
So I don't think it's gonna add anything

Couple other thoughts I've been having
Put positive energy aura core4, and introduce new tier5.
Say obliterate undead
That gives all clerics healing aura, and turns radiant into undead killer,
Which is sorely needed

Also, I would add melee power to warpriest
Since that's the fighting tree
Oh, and I'm still for putting wisdom to hit and damage in warpriest,
Too

[goodspeed]

Id say anything at all. I mixed in 6 fighter with my cleric and honestly the points all went toward kensai. Not even the heal tree gave me pause to spend there. The battle cleric tree just blows, and the healer tree could really use a kick in the behind to get er in gear.

[Gregen]

1. Cleric class
- it's very feat starved
- I'd propose giving a few feats to clerics at various levels like Ranger gets or have a pool of feats that clerics can choose from.

Cleric level 3 feat granted Empower Healing
Cleric level 6 feat granted Extra Turning
Cleric level 12 feat granted Improved Turning

I take Improved Turning at level 1. I wouldn't want to see this at level 12.
Instead of granting it automatically at 12, maybe a new Turn Undead feat can be granted at that level. I don't see that happening, so maybe Turn Undead could be improved in other ways.

As for everything else that people have been discussing across different cleric pass threads...
I've been playing a healer Cleric for about 7 years and I do NOT want to see any RADICAL changes to the enhancement trees. I especially don't want to see any fundamental changes to the Radiant Aura. If people want its placement in the tree swapped with Improved Empower Healing, that's fine. As long as its still level 12. I don't want to see any actual changes to the way it functions, though. If people want bigger dice on the ticks, that's fine, but it already hits plenty hard to me.

Cheaper Turn Undead enhancements would be good. I would definitely like to see Turn Undead improved dramatically in higher levels. Not even just epic levels, but higher heroic levels as well. I have invested in Turn Undead in every way and it works great until later heroic levels where it starts to slow down. Turn Undead's performance in Epic Elite is just insulting. As others have mentioned, I think having Seek Eternal Rest scale with level is a great idea. A +4 bonus is fine until mid to high level content. This needs a much higher bonus in later levels.

I think spell damage could also be improved. As a healer investing offensive options exclusively in spell power, spell damage is underwhelming. I don't think spell damage needs to be a ton stronger, but they could use some sort of boost.

And for the love of Tira, fix Silver Flame Exorcism, already! It's been bugged for YEARS and is STILL not applying Cleric level to DC. How has this not been addressed yet? This is a pretty half-decent ability, but not when the DC is bugged to almost always fail.

[Gregen]

Divine Healing and Divine Vitality should scale with level, too. They're also great abilities that fall behind in higher levels.
30 SP per use of DV is not helpful in epic content. No one should have to reset an enhancement tree at a certain level just because of obsolete abilities.
Granted most people aren't running out of SP all the time in epics, but DV was always helpful in a pinch and could make a difference when no shrine was in sight.

Divine Vitality 3/3 grants 7d4+10 SP. It should really be 7d4x(Half Cleric Level) SP. Or something like that. Something that scales with your Cleric level.

Same thing with Divine Healing. 3/3 grants 4d4 HP every 2 seconds. Would 4d4x(Half Cleric Level) HP make sense?

I'm just throwing some ideas out there. I hope the devs are listening. I've felt these abilities should scale this way for a long time.

[JOTMON]

Overall.. clerics are just lacking.. we have Reaper content to encourage need for healers.. but this is only a small aspect of what a 'cleric' is supposed to be.
Dev's.. Open up your eyes... CLERIC.. not just nanny cure party booboo's ...


1. lacking useful turn undead.
Clerics are supposed to be walking destroyers of undead.
The Cleric should be the ultimate force vs undead..and yet clerics are lacking all the tools leaving it to just about every other class to deal with undead.

2. lacking Cures/Heals over time, Temp HP buffs, better party buffs..
Cleric cures/heals are expensive and don't have to tools to keep parties alive.. its easier/cheaper to rez a fallen party member than heal/buff them.

3. Scrolls/wands/potions haven't been updated since level 12.
Clerics are expensive to play and heavily mana dependant, resources don't holdup to mitigate these costs..
Where are the mechanics to allow clerics to utilize scrolls, wands, potions in higher level content.
Even adding a enhancement line to allow clerics to apply meta's on resources would be helpful.

3. Clerics are lacking a PM enhancement line for Necro focus clerics.
an assortment of undead control, undead healing, moar undead focus...

4. lacking mob debuffs.

5. Divine pacts that mirror Warlock pacts.
Look at the pacts warlocks get and then look at the [expletive] they gave clerics.. a feat choice .. where are the divine pacts for clerics..


In my opinion Dev's have failed clerics even before the cleric strike back in 2010 resulting in players quitting playing clerics since they suck relative to other player classes.. nothing has changed.
Dev's have failed clerics as a class and effectively pushed them back into the game as upgraded hireling bandaid dispensers instead of active team members.

[Enoach]

Overall.. clerics are just lacking.. we have Reaper content to encourage need for healers.. but this is only a small aspect of what a 'cleric' is supposed to be.
Dev's.. Open up your eyes... CLERIC.. not just nanny cure party booboo's ...


1. lacking useful turn undead.
Clerics are supposed to be walking destroyers of undead.
The Cleric should be the ultimate force vs undead..and yet clerics are lacking all the tools leaving it to just about every other class to deal with undead.

2. lacking Cures/Heals over time, Temp HP buffs, better party buffs..
Cleric cures/heals are expensive and don't have to tools to keep parties alive.. its easier/cheaper to rez a fallen party member than heal/buff them.

3. Scrolls/wands/potions haven't been updated since level 12.
Clerics are expensive to play and heavily mana dependant, resources don't holdup to mitigate these costs..
Where are the mechanics to allow clerics to utilize scrolls, wands, potions in higher level content.
Even adding a enhancement line to allow clerics to apply meta's on resources would be helpful.

3. Clerics are lacking a PM enhancement line for Necro focus clerics.
an assortment of undead control, undead healing, moar undead focus...

4. lacking mob debuffs.

5. Divine pacts that mirror Warlock pacts.
Look at the pacts warlocks get and then look at the [expletive] they gave clerics.. a feat choice .. where are the divine pacts for clerics..


In my opinion Dev's have failed clerics even before the cleric strike back in 2010 resulting in players quitting playing clerics since they suck relative to other player classes.. nothing has changed.
Dev's have failed clerics as a class and effectively pushed them back into the game as upgraded hireling bandaid dispensers instead of active team members.

1. Issues I see with Turn Undead (Cleric/Paladin)
a. CR vs HD conversion. Turn is based on HD and this is used to drive up HP on mobs making this a harder benchmark to reach. Either the Turn Table needs adjusted or HD on Undead.
b. Radiant Servants "Destroy" undead vs Instant death protected undead - So it can't be destroyed, why isn't the cower effect applied? Taking out this ability I found I was able to cower these undead when successful Turn attempt occurred. But the Radiant Servant ability seemed to prevent any effect

2. I don't actually agree with the sentiment that raising/rebuffing is cheaper - But that might be a reflection on the Reaper questing where players are locked out of a raise for extended period of time, meaning the DPS of the party (opportunity cost) is greater. I also believe the Cleric has several great tools for healing.

3. I also don't agree the Scrolls/Wands/Potions are an issue

3. Actually the Cleric does have a more negative energy focus Enhancement line via Divine Disciple. It does not have control spells but does have a way other then Harm to heal the PMs

4. I think you need to elaborate more on the Debuff's. Energy Drain, Poison, Disease, Prayer etc. are all debuffs - I do admit that some of these work much better in Reaper where mobs last longer.

5. The Divine Pacts are what many of us old schoolers refer to as Domains. These are diety related spell lists that add in other options. This is where Undead control spells could be added, or even melee focus or Evocation spells normally associated with Arcane. Many deities had multiple Domains to pick from which I think the work done for warlock pact feats nicely makes available having you pick the feat even though their is only one that matches. I really think the Warlock work has made an opening for Domains to be implemented. And possibly even a Feat to add a Domain so a Divine could use 2 Domains from their deity instead of one - Cost being a feat slot.