Poll: Tempest PA or Precision?

[EllisDee37]

against bosses undead and constructs

And trees! Don't forget the trees!

hehheh.

Seriously, though, also elementals.

[unbongwah]

Precision is doing exactly that, it does the same thing a T4 and a T3 twist combined is doing, that is basically required for some content.
I'd take any feat all day every day, to get the equivalent power of a T4 and T3 slot. There's more than enough fortification on mobs to warrant it.

I've never seen anybody ever suggest that Power Atk + Grim Precision + Piercing Clarity was a better combo than, say, Precision + Balanced Atks + Sense Weakness for a TWF build. Unless that's not what dwarfforged said? I think I failed my save vs Wall of Text with his post...

EDIT: sometimes PA is better; sometimes Precision is better. I used to take both when I had the feats to spare; but nowadays I only have one rgr who still has both and I'll probably drop PA the next time I LR or ER that toon.

[EllisDee37]

I've never seen anybody ever suggest that Power Atk + Grim Precision + Piercing Clarity was a better combo than, say, Precision + Balanced Atks + Sense Weakness for a TWF build.

My ranger takes symmetric strikes, not balanced attack. I would think +5% damage on every swing works out to be better dps than a 5% chance at a 2-second helpless stun.

[Enoach]

Power Attacks Advantage:
Strength based
1.5 Strength on Two Handed Fighting
Races/Classes which enhance the Strength bonus for Power Attack
Access to Cleave Feat

Precision Advantage
Works regardless of Strength/Dexterity/Intelligence/Charisma for To-Hit/Damage
Fortification Bypass - More potential of critical hits on high Fortified mobs
Bonus To Hit


If you are not a strength based and maybe don't have full BaB Precision will likely be better long run.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Agreed on everything else in your post, but that's a weird way of looking at it. Precision is doing exactly that, it does the same thing a T4 and a T3 twist combined is doing, that is basically required for some content.
I'd take any feat all day every day, to get the equivalent power of a T4 and T3 slot. There's more than enough fortification on mobs to warrant it.

it does do the same thing basically, i feel like the twists provide more flexibility though. in an environment where precision wasnt necessary or massively superior for dps in the first place, i personally would just stick with power attack and change my twists as needed.

I've never seen anybody ever suggest that Power Atk + Grim Precision + Piercing Clarity was a better combo than, say, Precision + Balanced Atks + Sense Weakness for a TWF build. Unless that's not what dwarfforged said? I think I failed my save vs Wall of Text with his post...

EDIT: sometimes PA is better; sometimes Precision is better. I used to take both when I had the feats to spare; but nowadays I only have one rgr who still has both and I'll probably drop PA the next time I LR or ER that toon.

in my opinion using the numbers that i think a ranger will have for fort bypass, a ranger will have 75% fort bypass before grim and clarity. in a quest chain such as necro 4, i most definitely would prefer to increase my fort bypass to 100% because that will affect bosses and most of the trash while balanced attacks and sense weakness only has a significant effect on trash which i dont generally find to be as important. also, balanced attacks is a random proc so i personally would never rely on it to be the difference between completing a quest and dying.

for people who feel that trash deserves more of their consideration when building or preparing to do a quest, then balanced attacks and sense weakness may be the superior twist combo regardless of what their fort bypass is and what theyre fighting.

i have the same preferences for twists regardless of whether ive chosen power attack or precision in this case because of how the numbers work out.

My ranger takes symmetric strikes, not balanced attack. I would think +5% damage on every swing works out to be better dps than a 5% chance at a 2-second helpless stun.

afaik testing on symmetric strikes demonstrated that it was not delivering what it was supposed to, or what it was expected to. like it was +5% base dmg before dmg mods only or something? dont quite remember.

[EllisDee37]

afaik testing on symmetric strikes demonstrated that it was not delivering what it was supposed to, or what it was expected to. like it was +5% base dmg before dmg mods only or something? dont quite remember.

Thanks much for the heads up. I'll do some testing myself now that I know it's in question.

[Tscheuss]

Thanks much for the heads up. I'll do some testing myself now that I know it's in question.

You better, young man. *arms akimbo, toe tapping*

[Arktanis]

I like Precision on my Tempest because I tend to heavily splash into DWS and those rare sneak attacks on non-sneak attackable things are nice. +5 damage a hit isn't worth it when you lose 5d6+ of sneak attack in my books.

And I never cleave on TWF, just seems random.

[adrian69]

Which is better now?

Power Attack or Precision?

The general consensus over the years has not just tended but overwhelmingly focused on PA but now some people are starting to promote Precision so to help the newbies out there which would you choose?



And yes I chose Both.

With DoD being up 3/4 of the time and tempest having awesome single target dps, I avoid PA and Cleave. The fort bypass and more con from LD is just worth more to me at the moment.

[adrian69]

Thanks much for the heads up. I'll do some testing myself now that I know it's in question.

afaik testing on symmetric strikes demonstrated that it was not delivering what it was supposed to, or what it was expected to. like it was +5% base dmg before dmg mods only or something? dont quite remember.

I tested symmetric too sometime back and it is a very little DPS gain compared to Balanced Attacks. Don't remember exactly how much, but was only something 7 damage averaged with the OH. Something about the mechanic isn't WAI imo. The amount of DS a Tempest has MH and OF causes lots of 20 rolls and stuff is constantly falling down helpless.

[EllisDee37]

Initial testing certainly seems to properly apply the damage boost to the mainhand. Are you saying it doesn't apply to offhand? I recorded my tests and could go back and gather offhand data.

My test conditions:
- Already-killed training dummy
- Reset all enhancements (0 AP spent)
- No gear (naked!)
- Using a pair of basic khopeshes bought in the hammer & chain in the harbor
- 1 swing at a time
- Only tracked the left-most floaty number of the first hit in an attack

I tracked 100 swings with and without symetric strikes. I ignored misses and crits. Here's the data, first in the order the swings occured and then repeated, sorted lowest first, for easier eyeballing:

     ------ RAW ------   ---- SORTED -----
     Nothing  Symetric   Nothing  Symetric
       105       112        92        96
        98       112        92        96
       107       120        92        96
       105       125        96        96
       108       121        96        99
       117       103        96        99
       105       109        96        99
       101        96        96       100
       111       103        96       103
       103       123        96       103
       107        96        97       103
        96       115        97       103
       118       112        98       103
       111       132        98       103
       105       123        98       103
       100        96        98       105
        92       118        98       107
       105        99        98       107
        98       109        98       107
       106       125        98       107
       101       109        98       107
       120       118        98       107
       110       123        98       109
       107       103        98       109
        98       109        98       109
       109       116       100       109
       101        96       100       109
       103       112       101       109
       102       121       101       109
       116       125       101       109
       101       112       101       109
       101       120       101       109
        98       100       101       109
       101       110       101       110
       111       112       101       111
        98       109       101       112
       111       112       101       112
        96       120       101       112
        96       120       102       112
        92       109       102       112
       110       107       103       112
       111       123       103       112
       101       120       103       112
       116       116       104       112
       104       118       105       112
       114       120       105       112
       107       118       105       112
        98       123       105       113
       120       116       105       115
        98       112       105       116
       114       107       105       116
       114       120       105       116
       120        99       105       116
       101       109       105       116
        98       135       106       116
       105       123       107       116
       116       125       107       116
        97       120       107       116
        98       120       107       116
        98       112       107       118
       109       135       108       118
       108       103       108       118
        92       111       109       118
       114       120       109       120
       111       112       109       120
        96       125       110       120
       115       103       110       120
       101       116       111       120
       111       123       111       120
       116       116       111       120
        97       121       111       120
        96       116       111       120
        98       109       111       120
        98       116       111       120
       116       116       111       120
       120       116       114       120
       105       125       114       120
       115       112       114       121
        96       109       114       121
        96       121       114       121
       114       120       114       121
       116       107       115       122
       105       113       115       123
       105       103       115       123
       101       109       116       123
       116       109       116       123
       115       123       116       123
        98        99       116       123
       103       105       116       123
       100       120       116       123
       102       120       116       123
       122       122       116       125
       105       107       116       125
       101       116       117       125
       109       107       118       125
       114       107       120       125
       111       112       120       125
       107       123       120       132
       116       103       120       135
       116       120       122       135
      -------   -------    ------    ------
AVG:   105.96    114.18    105.96    114.18

Average damage:

105.96 without symetric strikes
114.18 with symetric strikes

Lowest damage:

92 without symetric strikes
96 with symetric strikes

Highest damage:

122 without symetric strikes
135 with symetric strikes


EDIT: Does it bother anyone else that the ability is spelled wrong in the game, or is it just me? (The actual word has two "m"s.)

[adrian69]

it does do the same thing basically, i feel like the twists provide more flexibility though. in an environment where precision wasnt necessary or massively superior for dps in the first place, i personally would just stick with power attack and change my twists as needed.



in my opinion using the numbers that i think a ranger will have for fort bypass, a ranger will have 75% fort bypass before grim and clarity. in a quest chain such as necro 4, i most definitely would prefer to increase my fort bypass to 100% because that will affect bosses and most of the trash while balanced attacks and sense weakness only has a significant effect on trash which i dont generally find to be as important. also, balanced attacks is a random proc so i personally would never rely on it to be the difference between completing a quest and dying.

for people who feel that trash deserves more of their consideration when building or preparing to do a quest, then balanced attacks and sense weakness may be the superior twist combo regardless of what their fort bypass is and what theyre fighting.

i have the same preferences for twists regardless of whether ive chosen power attack or precision in this case because of how the numbers work out.



afaik testing on symmetric strikes demonstrated that it was not delivering what it was supposed to, or what it was expected to. like it was +5% base dmg before dmg mods only or something? dont quite remember.

Initial testing certainly seems to properly apply the damage boost to the mainhand. Are you saying it doesn't apply to offhand? I recorded my tests and could go back and gather offhand data.

My test conditions:
- Already-killed training dummy
- Reset all enhancements (0 AP spent)
- No gear (naked!)
- Using a pair of basic khopeshes bought in the hammer & chain in the harbor
- 1 swing at a time
- Only tracked the left-most floaty number of the first hit in an attack

I tracked 100 swings with and without symetric strikes. I ignored misses and crits. Here's the data, first in the order the swings occured and then repeated, sorted lowest first, for easier eyeballing:

     ------ RAW ------   ---- SORTED -----
     Nothing  Symetric   Nothing  Symetric
       105       112        92        96
        98       112        92        96
       107       120        92        96
       105       125        96        96
       108       121        96        99
       117       103        96        99
       105       109        96        99
       101        96        96       100
       111       103        96       103
       103       123        96       103
       107        96        97       103
        96       115        97       103
       118       112        98       103
       111       132        98       103
       105       123        98       103
       100        96        98       105
        92       118        98       107
       105        99        98       107
        98       109        98       107
       106       125        98       107
       101       109        98       107
       120       118        98       107
       110       123        98       109
       107       103        98       109
        98       109        98       109
       109       116       100       109
       101        96       100       109
       103       112       101       109
       102       121       101       109
       116       125       101       109
       101       112       101       109
       101       120       101       109
        98       100       101       109
       101       110       101       110
       111       112       101       111
        98       109       101       112
       111       112       101       112
        96       120       101       112
        96       120       102       112
        92       109       102       112
       110       107       103       112
       111       123       103       112
       101       120       103       112
       116       116       104       112
       104       118       105       112
       114       120       105       112
       107       118       105       112
        98       123       105       113
       120       116       105       115
        98       112       105       116
       114       107       105       116
       114       120       105       116
       120        99       105       116
       101       109       105       116
        98       135       106       116
       105       123       107       116
       116       125       107       116
        97       120       107       116
        98       120       107       116
        98       112       107       118
       109       135       108       118
       108       103       108       118
        92       111       109       118
       114       120       109       120
       111       112       109       120
        96       125       110       120
       115       103       110       120
       101       116       111       120
       111       123       111       120
       116       116       111       120
        97       121       111       120
        96       116       111       120
        98       109       111       120
        98       116       111       120
       116       116       111       120
       120       116       114       120
       105       125       114       120
       115       112       114       121
        96       109       114       121
        96       121       114       121
       114       120       114       121
       116       107       115       122
       105       113       115       123
       105       103       115       123
       101       109       116       123
       116       109       116       123
       115       123       116       123
        98        99       116       123
       103       105       116       123
       100       120       116       123
       102       120       116       123
       122       122       116       125
       105       107       116       125
       101       116       117       125
       109       107       118       125
       114       107       120       125
       111       112       120       125
       107       123       120       132
       116       103       120       135
       116       120       122       135
      -------   -------    ------    ------
AVG:   105.96    114.18    105.96    114.18

Average damage:

105.96 without symetric strikes
114.18 with symetric strikes

Lowest damage:

92 without symetric strikes
96 with symetric strikes

Highest damage:

122 without symetric strikes
135 with symetric strikes


EDIT: Does it bother anyone else that the ability is spelled wrong in the game, or is it just me? (The actual word has two "m"s.)

Well it is interesting. And it is similar, but I did this a year ago after arguing with someone in favor for it. I'll take your word and it may have been ninja fixed at some point. I did make a complaint. I tested on an unshifted druid though, which could be a problem in itself. I remember only doing around 4 extra damage with base around 100. It could have been right, but I guess my thinking developed afterward into why use a tier 4 twist for 5 only damage when I am already doing 1.5 to most things consistently.

I have grammar reported all the incorrect spellings a couple of times over the last couple of years. I worked as a line editor and copy editor for fifteen years and it all bothers me. If I didn't like the game design style, I would have once quit because of it.

[EllisDee37]

Well it is interesting. And it is similar, but I did this a year ago after arguing with someone in favor for it. I'll take your word and it may have been ninja fixed at some point. I did make a complaint. I tested on an unshifted druid though, which could be a problem in itself. I remember only doing around 4 extra damage with base around 100.

Why would 4 extra damage on a base of 100 be bugged? That's +4%, which is within a reasonable margin of error for testing purposes compared to the stated +5% damage.

EDIT: Note that even if sense weakness + balanced attacks ends up being more overall dps than +5%, symetric strike has the advantage of working on everything: bosses, portals, etc...

[EllisDee37]

Back to the topic, in addition to tempest and assassins, swashbucklers are clearly better off with precision since they also get +5 damage with precision active as a tier 5. Best of both worlds.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Initial testing certainly seems to properly apply the damage boost to the mainhand. Are you saying it doesn't apply to offhand? I recorded my tests and could go back and gather offhand data.

My test conditions:
- Already-killed training dummy
- Reset all enhancements (0 AP spent)
- No gear (naked!)
- Using a pair of basic khopeshes bought in the hammer & chain in the harbor
- 1 swing at a time
- Only tracked the left-most floaty number of the first hit in an attack

I tracked 100 swings with and without symetric strikes. I ignored misses and crits. Here's the data, first in the order the swings occured and then repeated, sorted lowest first, for easier eyeballing:

     ------ RAW ------   ---- SORTED -----
     Nothing  Symetric   Nothing  Symetric
       105       112        92        96
        98       112        92        96
       107       120        92        96
       105       125        96        96
       108       121        96        99
       117       103        96        99
       105       109        96        99
       101        96        96       100
       111       103        96       103
       103       123        96       103
       107        96        97       103
        96       115        97       103
       118       112        98       103
       111       132        98       103
       105       123        98       103
       100        96        98       105
        92       118        98       107
       105        99        98       107
        98       109        98       107
       106       125        98       107
       101       109        98       107
       120       118        98       107
       110       123        98       109
       107       103        98       109
        98       109        98       109
       109       116       100       109
       101        96       100       109
       103       112       101       109
       102       121       101       109
       116       125       101       109
       101       112       101       109
       101       120       101       109
        98       100       101       109
       101       110       101       110
       111       112       101       111
        98       109       101       112
       111       112       101       112
        96       120       101       112
        96       120       102       112
        92       109       102       112
       110       107       103       112
       111       123       103       112
       101       120       103       112
       116       116       104       112
       104       118       105       112
       114       120       105       112
       107       118       105       112
        98       123       105       113
       120       116       105       115
        98       112       105       116
       114       107       105       116
       114       120       105       116
       120        99       105       116
       101       109       105       116
        98       135       106       116
       105       123       107       116
       116       125       107       116
        97       120       107       116
        98       120       107       116
        98       112       107       118
       109       135       108       118
       108       103       108       118
        92       111       109       118
       114       120       109       120
       111       112       109       120
        96       125       110       120
       115       103       110       120
       101       116       111       120
       111       123       111       120
       116       116       111       120
        97       121       111       120
        96       116       111       120
        98       109       111       120
        98       116       111       120
       116       116       111       120
       120       116       114       120
       105       125       114       120
       115       112       114       121
        96       109       114       121
        96       121       114       121
       114       120       114       121
       116       107       115       122
       105       113       115       123
       105       103       115       123
       101       109       116       123
       116       109       116       123
       115       123       116       123
        98        99       116       123
       103       105       116       123
       100       120       116       123
       102       120       116       123
       122       122       116       125
       105       107       116       125
       101       116       117       125
       109       107       118       125
       114       107       120       125
       111       112       120       125
       107       123       120       132
       116       103       120       135
       116       120       122       135
      -------   -------    ------    ------
AVG:   105.96    114.18    105.96    114.18

Average damage:

105.96 without symetric strikes
114.18 with symetric strikes

Lowest damage:

92 without symetric strikes
96 with symetric strikes

Highest damage:

122 without symetric strikes
135 with symetric strikes


EDIT: Does it bother anyone else that the ability is spelled wrong in the game, or is it just me? (The actual word has two "m"s.)

wouldnt the fact the the dummy was helpless affect the numbers?

you should test with gear and enhancements to see if the bonus is consistent in that case, or if it does only affect base damage.

[EllisDee37]

wouldnt the fact the the dummy was helpless affect the numbers?

Not really, no.

The base numbers appear to be 70 damage normally, +50% for helpless = 105.
With symetric that would go up to 73.5 damage normally, +50% for helpless = 110.25

Close enough to the results shown given such a small sample size.

ou should test with gear and enhancements to see if the bonus is consistent in that case, or if it does only affect base damage.

The effect explicitly states that it only applies to base damage. It won't boost weapon procs like holy, for example. Essentially, whatever base damage gets multiplied by crits, that number gets multiplied by 1.05. (Before crits, like a multiplicative seeker.)

Most dps in today's game is from base damage, yes? I can see this effect being meh when Mortal Fear was a goodly % of overall dps, but as far as I'm aware today's dps is all about crits. Which means base damage (and its multipliers) are king.

Do I have that wrong? Is proc damage a big deal nowadays?

[Arlathen]

If it's a choice between either feat, then for me Precision is by far and away the better of the two feats. Thus I voted Precision.

Critical & Sneak Damage is such an important damage component for any Melee Build that having as much Fort Bypass as you can stack is seriously important.

I would of voted for 'take both, use as needed', but I find myself wanting other feats instead of having both of these. Therefore, I take Precision on my Ranger.

On my Human THF Paladin, I do have the room for both feats, but I find myself using Precision far more often than Power Attack. I've built him to do as much Critical Damage as is possible, and Fortification is just so prevalent in what I run that I find Precision is on 80%+ of the time.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

...

i meant the base damage before additional damage mods from gear and enhancements and such. idk, i remember it being something like that.

first number is the main dmg id say though yea, not procs.

[EllisDee37]

i meant the base damage before additional damage mods from gear and enhancements and such. idk, i remember it being something like that.

Well, clearly it includes strength mod to damage, favored enemy bonuses and melee power, otherwise it would only be adding 5% of like 1d8 instead of 5% of 70. (Multiplied by 1.5 due to helplessness.) That really only leaves deadly items, doesn't it? I'm not sure there'd be enough granularity in my testing to differentiate whether it worked on the 17 deadly my guy wears or not.

It doesn't apply to seeker, of course, since seeker isn't part of your base damage. (It's added to your base damage.)

My best guess is that you're remembering people testing it during a time when mortal fear was all the rage, and since it does nothing for mortal fear people dismissed it.