Retrofitting Melee Power to Paladins

[Arlathen]

Question of the evening: How would you 'retrofit' some additional base damage and/or Melee Power to a Paladin based character.

My 20 Paladin THF is looking at just 15 Melee Power as a base, with temporary enhancements of +24, which seems a million miles away from current Fighter / Monk builds.

10 KotC Capstone: Champion of Good
05 Censure Outsiders
09 Follow Up
05 Empowered Smite
10 Follower of Onatar

Is it time to eat the multi-class pie once again?

[unbongwah]

Don't forget the +6 MP from THF feats. If you have Harper, you could add up to +9 MP, although at 23 APs it's probably too expensive for a Vanguard build. Or are you taking Follow Up on a regular KotC build just for the extra MP after Stunning Blow?

But on a pure THF build (41 KotC / 13 SD / 13 VG / 12 Harper / 1 human):

• 20 MP from KotC (+15 static, +5 from Emp Smite)
• 6 MP from THF feats
• 9 MP from Follow up (12/15 secs so +7.2 MP on avg)
• 5 MP from Harper
• 10 MP from Onatar

So 26 MP static + 24 MP from temp buffs = 50 MP stacked. I guess if you've got feats to burn you can get another +6 MP from all three melee Weapon Focuses. Though I kinda doubt Follow Up is worth 13 APs on a non-S&B build; too much filler you have to buy.

[EllisDee37]

Bumping Divine Crusader cores from +2 Melee Power to +3 Melee Power would help.

[Arlathen]

Don't forget the +6 MP from THF feats. If you have Harper, you could add up to +9 MP, although at 23 APs it's probably too expensive for a Vanguard build. Or are you taking Follow Up on a regular KotC build just for the extra MP after Stunning Blow?

But on a pure THF build (41 KotC / 13 SD / 13 VG / 12 Harper / 1 human):

• 20 MP from KotC (+15 static, +5 from Emp Smite)
• 6 MP from THF feats
• 9 MP from Follow up (12/15 secs so +7.2 MP on avg)
• 5 MP from Harper
• 10 MP from Onatar

So 26 MP static + 24 MP from temp buffs = 50 MP stacked. I guess if you've got feats to burn you can get another +6 MP from all three melee Weapon Focuses. Though I kinda doubt Follow Up is worth 13 APs on a non-S&B build; too much filler you have to buy.

I was initially thinking around Paladin specific Melee Power, as I can take my THF feats with me whatever build I end up on. And yeah, its a THF KotC build with Follow Up for the Melee Power buff.

Although it's very tight on the AP (41 KotC / 25 SD / 13 Vg / 1 Human), I'm struggling towards a Max Str / Cha styled build and with such a base build it seemed incredibly short sighted to not pick up Stunning Blow / Dire Charge, and in turn Brutality for the extra DC, and thus in turn Follow Up for the Melee Power.

Or am I just thinking the circa 50 MP with temp buffs is not enough, and I should be valuing what Paladin has more? I suppose Paladin gains a large chunk of Base damage as well through Max Cha Divine Might...

Most likely, I've just got a bad case of FotM Build envy....

[Arlathen]

Bumping Divine Crusader cores from +2 Melee Power to +3 Melee Power would help.

Unfortunately, I feel that's about as likely as the Devs fixing the bugged Melee Power bonuses in the destiny itself (Castigation / No Regret IIRC).

[Saekee]

ToEE set bonus plus mythic upgrades?

[adrian69]

I was initially thinking around Paladin specific Melee Power, as I can take my THF feats with me whatever build I end up on. And yeah, its a THF KotC build with Follow Up for the Melee Power buff.

Although it's very tight on the AP (41 KotC / 25 SD / 13 Vg / 1 Human), I'm struggling towards a Max Str / Cha styled build and with such a base build it seemed incredibly short sighted to not pick up Stunning Blow / Dire Charge, and in turn Brutality for the extra DC, and thus in turn Follow Up for the Melee Power.

Or am I just thinking the circa 50 MP with temp buffs is not enough, and I should be valuing what Paladin has more? I suppose Paladin gains a large chunk of Base damage as well through Max Cha Divine Might...

Most likely, I've just got a bad case of FotM Build envy....

I agree they lack some melee power these days and are short on damage compared to other classes since triple AB was fixed in 32 or 33. I also agree you're undervaluing them, somewhat. They do have the best defenses due to DG and Immunities and I have saw a few well built twf or S&B paladins stand in the middle of end fights/mass mobs in MoD, DoJ, and LS & LT and continue to take a beating while everyone else is dead, climbing back up the mountain, or trying to recuperate and get the party back up.

[Eryhn]

pdk, 6 fighter levels, silvanus, zeal instead of holy sword, kensei tier 5, run in LD is a relatively easy way to boost dps, but yeah, that's that pie for you

[Rawrargh]

Don't forget that paladins have better saves, and better heals than both fighters and monks. If you want the defense you gotta give up some of the offense...

compared to monks though, they also have better crit profiles and mrr.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Question of the evening: How would you 'retrofit' some additional base damage and/or Melee Power to a Paladin based character.

My 20 Paladin THF is looking at just 15 Melee Power as a base, with temporary enhancements of +24, which seems a million miles away from current Fighter / Monk builds.

10 KotC Capstone: Champion of Good
05 Censure Outsiders
09 Follow Up
05 Empowered Smite
10 Follower of Onatar

Is it time to eat the multi-class pie once again?

paladins dont need more mp. they SHOULD have lower offensive power than fighters (i am going to ignore monks and my thoughts on them for this discussion) because they have other benefits. if you want more mp without changing the overall style of the class, a 6 level fighter splash is perfectly viable.

Bumping Divine Crusader cores from +2 Melee Power to +3 Melee Power would help.

i dont see what this has to do with paladins.

Unfortunately, I feel that's about as likely as the Devs fixing the bugged Melee Power bonuses in the destiny itself (Castigation / No Regret IIRC).

this should be fixed, but in the mean time, i am not sure why its unfortunate for people who currently prefer playing in dc over ld. you get that mp with or without those enhancements, so its basically like having 8 cores instead of 6. its not really a huge deal because its only 4 mp and builds using dc do need serious help in the sustained damage department anyway, though it does rankle me.

Don't forget that paladins have better saves, and better heals than both fighters and monks. If you want the defense you gotta give up some of the offense...

compared to monks though, they also have better crit profiles and mrr.

all true.

personally i feel that fighter does invalidate paladin to a degree, but if you ill equipped (literally) to play fighter, or you are unwilling to put in extra effort to play one successfully, or unwilling to spend money for the easy cheese, then paladin provides a perfectly viable alternative. and if you are willing to compromise losing some of what makes paladin so easy for additional offensive stats, then you can multiclass 6 fighter and call it a day. sounds like the system is working to me.



on a related note, if they ever got around to de****ing holy sword by making it a t5 kotc enhancement and not a spell, i might agree paladins need some compensation. not til then though.

[Mr_Helmet]

Bumping Divine Crusader cores from +2 Melee Power to +3 Melee Power would help.

It's not enough, paladin DPS lags behind fighter/tempest DPS so much now that I'm not sure doubling their Melee Power would break the game. I'm not kidding.

[unbongwah]

Most likely, I've just got a bad case of FotM Build envy....

It's been just over two years since the U23 buffs to paladins and the only change since then was the U28 nerf to stacking crit range bonuses. It's long overdue to accept that the DPS crown has since been passed to other builds.

[Mr_Helmet]

It's been just over two years since the U23 buffs to paladins and the only change since then was the U28 nerf to stacking crit range bonuses. It's long overdue to accept that the DPS crown has since been passed to other builds.

Passing the crown is acceptable, and the best defensive class should lag behind in DPS, but should the margin be as wide as it is.

[Wipey]

paladins dont need more mp. they SHOULD have lower offensive power than fighters (i am going to ignore monks and my thoughts on them for this discussion) because they have other benefits.

BF Kotc blitzer vs BF kensei blitzer.
What benefits a pally has ? Please don't say Fear Immunity.

Exactly why "updating" and "balancing" the classes over such long period of time was stupid idea from the start.

[Rawrargh]

BF Kotc blitzer vs BF kensei blitzer.
What benefits a pally has ? Please don't say Fear Immunity.

Exactly why "updating" and "balancing" the classes over such long period of time was stupid idea from the start.

Well... probably 10-20 extra to all saves and 1200 TP...?

The BF fighter is one of those things that keep the lights on at turbine.

[unbongwah]

If you wanna say, "Bladeforged fighter renders all other melee builds obsolete," just say it and move on. No need to belabor the point any more than it's already been.

[Mr_Helmet]

BF Kotc blitzer vs BF kensei blitzer.

Having just recently played both, I'll have to say it's amazing how good quicken is with Reconstruct and how much it can suck if you don't have it.

Human tempest is better that both of them anyway.

[Mr_Helmet]

If you wanna say, "Bladeforged fighter renders all other melee builds obsolete," just say it and move on.

Wipey won't say that because he knows it's not true.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

BF Kotc blitzer vs BF kensei blitzer.
What benefits a pally has ? Please don't say Fear Immunity.

Exactly why "updating" and "balancing" the classes over such long period of time was stupid idea from the start.

personally i think bf kotc would be a mistake, but thats just me.

also, yea, theres an investment of either time or money in being a pure bf fighter which does not exist for paladin. i dont really consider that insignificant personally. they also have divine grace and loh, as well as divine sacrifice and exalted smite which are pretty nice clickies (the fighter ones are good...but they also kinda suck. deadly strike is just horrible and i only personally take it out of boredom).

once again though, i think bf pally pure would be a mistake. honestly, its a stupid ****ing comparison that doesnt even prove the point you want it to. splash 6 fighter in there, and you have the same ****ing build with most of the benefit to paladin and most of the benefit of fighter, easy. certainly more melee power than a pure paladin gets, so i dont really see the issue here. except for people who would advocate for paladins having the same or better dps, or close enough to it, as a healing deficient class without drawbacks such that said healing deficient class becomes pointless. again. because weve had that, and it was straight up ********. paladins should not be a top tier dps class, end of story. you want to give them a mp buff? ok. put 5 mp into the 18 core.

[Mr_Helmet]

.paladins should not be a top tier dps class,

no reasonable person would disagree.

Should they be doing half the damage of fighters and rangers?